Monitor substrate....

[Aanayab1]

I am trying to decide what to do. I have read and read and read. All I really come up with is the same basic thing. A soil-sand mixture... some say 50/50 others say 50/25/25 adding 25 vermiculite, some say 60/40, 40/60, 20/80, 80/20 then you can find the occasional strait dirt, sifted dirt/sand and I can go on and on and on. Now obviously I realize that I need sand and chemical free/organic top soil but that is it. I just do not understand why so many people will tell you "no don't use blah-blah" it is terrible for the monitor but then you see the person saying not to use whatever give a wide open statement like "use a soil/sand mix". What type of soil? the soil all over the world is different and very different, so what type of soil? Red, brown, black, sticky, clumpy, clay based, rock based, decomposed plant matter and it goes on and on. Then we have sand... the same issue arises, what type? Small, large, medium grain(the billion different mixes you can obtain of the fore mentioned), powdery, oolite, lime stone, decomposed or crushed coral, lava, granite, marble....

I personally am going to use the same or as close to possible as the breeder I am getting my monitors from uses. Now with that said, I want to point out that as a noob to the husbandry of monitors that wants to do it right I got super lucky with that. If I got my monitor from some other source(pet store, careless vendor or a million others) I would have to just guess. Even if a noob takes the right step towards the good husbandry and joins a site like this the information is so mixed up they can and will get it wrong if not just lose hope and do what the "pet shop said". If us monitor enthusiasts want to help better the lives of captive monitors a list of exact mixtures with the types of ingredients would be a great start. If left vague then there is almost no point.

Type of monitor

Depth of substrate for the species

Exact type of soil

Exact type of sand

Exact ratio of mix

It only has to be what works for you(long term keepers, successful breeders...) not anything scientifically proven(I'm not sure that exists yet).

I'm sorry for such a rant but I myself would have been turned off because all the conflicting information makes any of the information seem to have no credibility, but like stated earlier I found a caring breeder who shared his info. I will be posting what I use as well in the next few days once I get the kinks worked out.

Antonio

[Pirarucu]

I agree, it can seem a daunting task, selecting proper substrate. The reality of it though is that just about anything will work as long as it's chemical free and can hold moisture and burrows. It's not a study in geology, so don't turn it into one for yourself. You can just go outside and dig some up for yourself. Test it by pouring a bit of water into it, then clumping it into a ball. It should hold together well. Then, jab a finger into it, and it should crumble apart.
The dirt all around where I live is great, it is silty and thick and holds burrows beautifully.

[infernalis]

Perfection!...............

http://www.savannahmonitor.net/husbandry/dirtball.jpg

http://www.savannahmonitor.net/husbandry/moist.jpg

[Gatorhunter1231]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/Gatorhunter/reptiles/11-17-11eggs-dirt.jpg

white isnt rocks but eggs ;)

50-50 is a good place to start with a soil to sand mix. I could not tell you my exact ratios from there as I add or take away as I go. The varition people come up with also depends on your species. Ackies, argus, and gonnas of sandy parts of Austraila will benefit from more sand in their substrate. My croc monitors and my tri-color seem to like just a touch of peat moss added into substrate. My crocs tended to nest in a decomposing pile of leaves, mulch and dirt. I wished it was as easy as A + B= C but it isn't. You have to evolve with your lizards needs. A good comprehension of the basic is important but beyond that you will have to learn from your teacher or teacher ;) Your monitor will be the best teacher you have. You will learn by monitoring their skin, activity, etc.
I have tried many varitions, many ideas and listened to many people. I never take what someone tells me and believe it 100%. I test and try. I read my monitor and change as needed. I have full faith in you Antino-Its way easier then salt water fish ;)

[BarelyBreathing]

Through experimentation with the type of substrate I buy (Eco Earth and children's washed play sand), I found that a 60/40 mixture does well. It really depends on the soil you use.

[Aanayab1]

I just want to say at this point that everyone of the posts above is exactly what type of information that is needing to be shared. Explanations as to why the mix varies, exactly what you all are using(not vague in any way), pictures to show what is being explained and exact consistency of the what the final mix should be close to. Thank you all for contributing your knowledge. This will make it easier for noobs like myself and hopefully others to not get frustrated and have a better chance at getting things right. I must again thank you and can only hope other monitor keepers will keep chiming in.

Antonio

[Barlow]

I really wouldn't worry about it. Just make a mix that can hold a burrow well and it will serve the purpose it is intended for. It's only when you get to a nesting female that it becomes mega important.

[Aanayab1]

I have to worry about it because quality of life is mega important to me. I am the type of person that is not okay with the "serve the purpose" concept. Meant with no offense intended. A prison cell is 6'x7'x10' it serves the purpose of keeping its captive alive yet not much else. I have the belief that I am the reason this creature is living somewhere other than in its natural habitat. So I make it my responsibility to do the absolute best I can to provide my animals with as close of a match as possible to what they have naturally. I can not find dirt collected from their region of Australia(still searching but diminishing hope of success) but in the mean time I want to provide them with a substrate that replicates it the closest. I also want that substrate to be of nesting quality if my Ackies so choose to use it for that purpose and hope they will when the time comes.

Antonio

[Barlow]

I have to worry about it because quality of life is mega important to me. I am the type of person that is not okay with the "serve the purpose" concept. Meant with no offense intended. A prison cell is 6'x7'x10' it serves the purpose of keeping its captive alive yet not much else. I have the belief that I am the reason this creature is living somewhere other than in its natural habitat. So I make it my responsibility to do the absolute best I can to provide my animals with as close of a match as possible to what they have naturally. I can not find dirt collected from their region of Australia(still searching but diminishing hope of success) but in the mean time I want to provide them with a substrate that replicates it the closest. I also want that substrate to be of nesting quality if my Ackies so choose to use it for that purpose and hope they will when the time comes.

Antonio
Haha. I thought you wre talking about a sav. A sand heavy topsoil mix will be fine for them. If you are looking for a definitive ratio then it cannot be given. Females get fussier as they get older. You are looking for a recipe husbandry and that just doesn't work with monitors. You have to constantly work hard to provide them with what they need. Check out the nesting section on this linkhttp://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/93747-ackie-care-requirements.html

[varanus_mad]

Barlows right... what works this season might not next...

Often the first clutch is the easiest... new monitor mums are often easier to please first time round...

And dont take this personnel like....

but get of your arse talk to everybody you can and come to your own conclusions....

some things are cut and dry some things you have to change to see what works for your monitors...

Simples...

Part of me feels this is something that comes with experience...

Oh and dont just talk to people on the net find anyone and everyone you can...

[infernalis]

Often the first clutch is the easiest... new monitor mums are often easier to please first time round...

Glad you said that mate.

I got into a bit of a disagreement with someone before who tried to tell me that females lay their eggs all over the floor of the cage.

It was during a substrate discussion, they had purchased an adult import that was already gravid.

of course she laid them all over the floor of the cage, the person had like an inch of aspen shavings for substrate.

That poor lizard is doomed to egg bind her second or third clutch.

It was a youtube user, forget the chanel name, there are so many.

[varanus_mad]

Glad you said that mate.

I got into a bit of a disagreement with someone before who tried to tell me that females lay their eggs all over the floor of the cage.

It was during a substrate discussion, they had purchased an adult import that was already gravid.

of course she laid them all over the floor of the cage, the person had like an inch of aspen shavings for substrate.

That poor lizard is doomed to egg bind her second or third clutch.

It was a youtube user, forget the chanel name, there are so many.



hmmmm okay where predators can find them and where they can dehydrate quicker than a slug in the Sahara genius.


Dope.

On the upside they maybe fertile... Not helping your case of course...

[infernalis]

hmmmm okay where predators can find them and where they can dehydrate quicker than a slug in the Sahara genius.


Dope.

On the upside they maybe fertile... Not helping your case of course...

Most youtube people wind up telling me off.

However the 4 people who have listened make it worth it.

Right now there is a 13 year old city kid scavanging dumpsters looking for plywood!! so it does work a little.

[varanus_mad]

Most youtube people wind up telling me off.

However the 4 people who have listened make it worth it.

Right now there is a 13 year old city kid scavanging dumpsters looking for plywood!! so it does work a little.

Building sites arent a bad look out to... for cheap/free ply...

Though i dont suggest nicking 5 sheets all at once... gets tricky that does....

[infernalis]

Behind big cellualr companies warehouses, the tower tops come shipped in big plywood crates.

I helped build a room down in Florida once with just that, shipping crates.

[Aanayab1]

The point of me starting this thread was to hopefully compile what what works for others so that when my monitors start to get picky about their substrate I could refer to this list in hopes to satisfy my monitors in a more timely fashion. It would give me more ideas to try if I knew what was working for other successful breeders/keepers.

Before I start this next part I want to thank again; Pirarucu, infernalis, Gatorhunter1231 and BarelyBreathing for understanding my request and sharing what is working for them.

Yes I have read that care sheet multiple times since I asked permission to print it off a few weeks back and it is a great help. I am not looking for an absolute recipe for husbandry, I know that is a fictional thing from all the other critters I own... what I am/was looking for is non vague descriptions like "sand/soil". From a noobs point of view such as my own it means very little. Now if you look up at the first few posts on this thread you will see in depth descriptions of what is currently working for other keepers including visual aids to help get the point across, that is precisely what I was/am looking for. A strait forward answer as to what a noob like myself should strive for in my first enclosure. I know that to care for an animal of any type you have to get to know it on an almost personal level, and cater to the needs of that specific animal. With only vague answers some people will find themselves running in circles never truly finding anything they think is right. I did this myself when I first started keeping moray eels. I would buy one put it in the proper size tank have my water perimeters spot on and still the poor things died within a year, all simply because I could find no one who had the knowledge of what worked for hide spots for them would share the information openly other than a cave to hide in... haha the truth is not even close to that. I can see from where I am sitting at least 5 books I read to actually get the answer and now my eels thrive. Then again the books I find at my university's library on Varanidae are so out dated(15-30yrs) the information contained within has surely lost some credibility. I have asked about the newer books and been told that none contain more than a few paragraphs of useful knowledge. I keep being told to go find keepers and ask what is working for them. When I do just that most tell me they do not know an answer... or when I walk in and their place smells putrid and I see monitors on AstroTurf or bark I instantly think ok sooooo should I really take advise from someone who cares for their animal in this way? The local people I have found care for their animals like pet stores tell them. The closest reptile store to where I live is over a 4.5hr drive... They just buy and resell... The zoos I can visit without a plane ticket being involved I believe get their monitor husbandry practices from the pet shops that tell you to use wood chips and screen tops... Their snakes on the other hand are in marvelous condition. They don't take time to answer individual questions, they have a touch screen computer with a F.A.Q. sheet. I frequently visit the state of Florida and try my best to find breeders and sound keepers to talk to but that is a daunting task when you do not have time to get to know them on a personal level. They just see me as some guy who wants to know their secrets or something. In a way they are right, I do want to know their secrets as to how they keep their animals happy and healthy. It is counterproductive for me to be told to ask for help from keepers and for the current successful keepers to tell me basically to experiment :confused:

All I am asking here is for successful long term Varanidae owners to explain in detail what you are currently using for substrate in your monitors enclosure. I plan to put into use what my signature below states. But I can not make an educated or informed decision unless someone who is experienced in this topic is kind enough to educate or inform me what is working for them.

[infernalis]

But I can not make an educated or informed decision unless someone who is experienced in this topic is kind enough to educate or inform me what is working for them.

^^^^this part^^^^^^

Without these conversations, our forum goes to sleep.

[Gatorhunter1231]

A good place to check for some good topsoil and sand would be a landscaping place or a tree/plant nursury. They have access to it and normally is pretty cheap vs buying bags of it. Just put up a pic of the soil/sand in question and we can tell you if it will be viable. I can even tell you how much of each once you have something to work with. ;)

[infernalis]

A good place to check for some good topsoil and sand would be a landscaping place or a tree/plant nursury. They have access to it and normally is pretty cheap vs buying bags of it. Just put up a pic of the soil/sand in question and we can tell you if it will be viable. I can even tell you how much of each once you have something to work with. ;)

Helpful A++http://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/images/smilies/yes.gifhttp://www.reptileradio.net/reptileradio/images/smilies/headbang.gif

[Aanayab1]

I'll go to a local nursery supply company tomorrow that does direct public sales as well as wholesale and see what options they have and take photos of both soil and sands and put them up with labels of what the names of each are.

Antonio