C oreganus necropsy

[RandyRhoads]

Thought i'd pretend to know what i'm doing.:3eyes:

I was reading info Kim sent me on IBD

"
Necropsies revealed that the kidneys of 2 palm vipers contained
many pinpoint, chalky white deposits on the capsular
surface and, on section, throughout the parenchyma. Similar
white deposits were present on the pericardium of 1 snake
and the capsular surface of the liver of another snake. One
snake had thickening and hardening of the aorta. The lungs
from 2 of the snakes were


I went through organ by ogran looking for anything like the pinpoint chalky white deposits described here.


All set and ready to go.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1735.jpg

Trachea NAD
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1738.jpg

Tracheal lung (?) NAD

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1742.jpg

Air sac/ Liver NAD

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1745.jpg

Heart NAD
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1746.jpg

Ventricle
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1747.jpg

Ventricle/Atrium NAD

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1748.jpg

[RandyRhoads]

Liver NAD


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1749.jpg


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1750.jpg


Stomach - Parasitic infestation, or ingested substrate?


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1751.jpg


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1753.jpg


Unkown lesion # 1

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1755.jpg


Uknown lesion #1 removed showing damaged tissue underneath


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1758.jpg


Uknown lesion#2


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1756.jpg


Uknown lesions #1 and #2


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1757.jpg

[RandyRhoads]

Inside of lesion #1

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/DSCN1759.jpg




My best guess here is the lesion was conected to the spinal cord/nerve tissue causing the neuro issues(?) Just a guess, of course...

[Trollbie]

You and your necropsies... So no deposits, right?

[RandyRhoads]

Nope........

[Trollbie]

That looks like a lot of sand in the tummy

[RandyRhoads]

That looks like a lot of sand in the tummy
I hope that's what it is, but i'm thinking more along the lines of parasites. They look a lot like tapeworm eggs to me.

[BarelyBreathing]

It looks like parasites to me.

[iBaman]

that...was the coolest thing I've ever seen. sorry for the death, of course...but great info.

[shaunyboy]

as always you NEVER cease to amaze me Randy

doing your own autopsy was cool

and you got some answers,which is even better

imo,you did good mate

thanks for sharing

cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

Wow, great job Randy! That was very thorough and most of the tissues look quite clean. I agree that the stomach contents look like a parasitic infection to me. If a large quantity of sand were ingested, you would see clumping of it all through the intestines. If you have access to a microscope, you can look at the stomach contents under it to see if it is sand or worms. But from the rather sesame-seed shape of the contents, I think it's some kind of parasite...that could have killed the snake.

The lesions are probably tumours, which from their location, may very well have been the cause of neurological issues. It is also possible that they are benign fatty tumours. I dont' think you can really tell the difference without cell culturing and testing for cancer-associated proteins.

Anyway, that was an excellent necropsy, and my guess would be that parasitic infection overwhelmed the snake. It's sad, but it's unfortunately common in wild-caught snakes, and can take years to build up to critical load. I'm dealing with two LTC bush vipers that have whipworms and are probably not going to make it. It's heartbreaking. With the information you have from the necropsy, I think you're best to go ahead and treat the remaining snakes with Panacur.

Panacur is sold as a white paste in most tractor and farm supply stores, and even in Walmart. You want to make sure the active ingredient is fenbendazole, if you're buying the generic kind.

The paste is 100mg fenbendazole/1g paste, and 25g are usually in a tube. With that information, you can assume that there are 2500mg in the tube. This can be diluted with Pedialyte, 25mL to a concentration of 100mg/mL. The normal dosage is 50mg/kg for a snake, so you would give 0.5mL for each kg of weight. Use the clear, unflavored Pedialyte if you can find it. This provides some nice electrolytes that the snake will be low on due to parasites as well as the medication. If the snake will feed readily, inject the Panacur mixture into its f/t prey.

[Wildside]

You're a crazy man Randy! I love your enthusiasm :D

[shaunyboy]

You're a crazy man Randy! I love your enthusiasm :D

^^^^^
and his fire dancing :D

cheers shaun

[Wildside]

Yep That too!

[rmfsnakes32]

That was very informative I have never watched a necropsey before

[RandyRhoads]

Wow, great job Randy! That was very thorough and most of the tissues look quite clean. I agree that the stomach contents look like a parasitic infection to me. If a large quantity of sand were ingested, you would see clumping of it all through the intestines. If you have access to a microscope, you can look at the stomach contents under it to see if it is sand or worms. But from the rather sesame-seed shape of the contents, I think it's some kind of parasite...that could have killed the snake.

With the information you have from the necropsy, I think you're best to go ahead and treat the remaining snakes with Panacur.
.

Thank you:shocked: :smug:I had my microscope ready to go then realized I have no slides. I took a bunch of pictures and dumped the rest, if they were tapeworm eggs I didn't want them to dry and release into the air. I have my Panacur all ready to go. I remember Wayne saying something about putting meds on food. Can I do this with Panacur or do I need to tube it and give it orally?

Also upon closer examination in one of the pics I found this. Possible hook worm?

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/worm.png


^^^^^
and his fire dancing :D

cheers shaun


:laugh::laugh::laugh: Made this special just for you Shaun haha. Some old stuff with the boring parts taken out, and a few new things. I wanted to put that song you showed me but I couldn't remember who it was by??




Fire comp - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b9az31hvak)



That was very informative I have never watched a necropsey before


Like I said, I only prentended to what i'm doing. This by no means a good one.

[Will0W783]

Icky, that's a nasty looking stomach. :( It could be a hookworm, but those are usually white. It could also be a whipworm or roundworm...hard to tell from the picture since you can't see the whole worm.
Roundworms can be very long and spaghetti-like. Whipworms are thick at the head and then thin out until they are almost like a hair by the tail (like a whip). They are some of the nastiest and hardest to get rid of.

You definitely did a good job and that blown-up picture answers the question- those aren't sand particles. They are worm eggs and probably bits of damaged stomach tissue. If you opened all the way down into the intestines I bet you'd have seen a LOT more adult worms. The stomach acid is a harsh environment for them so they tend to hang out in the intestines where they can leech nutrients out of the digested food.

The Panacur can be injected right into the frozen/thawed food. I find it easiest to use a 1mL syringe and remove the needle, then squirt the Panacur right into the prey's throat, but with dilution it can also be injected into the prey's muscle using a needle. It's quite convenient. The only time you can't use food is if the snake is not voluntarily feeding, like in the case of my bush vipers. Neither one will take food now, so medicine has to be administered via cannula (VERY dangerous and scary...there is no antivenin for Atheris and they can pack a punch). C. oreganus aren't a joke either...lots of necrosis...but Cro-Fab is effective.

[Robyn@SYR]

Pretty dang interesting. Thanks.

[shaunyboy]

Thank youI had my microscope ready to go then realized I have no slides. I took a bunch of pictures and dumped the rest, if they were tapeworm eggs I didn't want them to dry and release into the air. I have my Panacur all ready to go. I remember Wayne saying something about putting meds on food. Can I do this with Panacur or do I need to tube it and give it orally?

Also upon closer examination in one of the pics I found this. Possible hook worm?

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/randy666rhoads/worm.png





:laugh::laugh::laugh: Made this special just for you Shaun haha. Some old stuff with the boring parts taken out, and a few new things. I wanted to put that song you showed me but I couldn't remember who it was by??




Fire comp - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b9az31hvak)






Like I said, I only prentended to what i'm doing. This by no means a good one.

pretty amazing stuff that necropsy you did mate,establishing their were hook worm present,imo that was good work Randy

re fire dancing
your getting GOOD mate

the song i suggested was

a group called.....

The Prodigy

the song was called.....

Fire Starter

imo you will LOVE the song,see if you can find the video filmed for it,surely it must be on the internet somewhere ?

you could do some FUNKY dancing to this song :Wow: :shocked: :laugh:

cheers shaun :D

[jaleely]

dang man. now i'm freaked out that i need to treat my snakes for parasites lol
never know what's growing in there, especially since half mine are rescues.
It's weird, overall the snake looked healthy except for...the stuff that was wrong with it lol

[Jay]

dang man. now i'm freaked out that i need to treat my snakes for parasites lol
never know what's growing in there, especially since half mine are rescues.


Quarantine!!

It's weird, overall the snake looked healthy except for...the stuff that was wrong with it lol
That made my day.

[jaleely]

yes jay =P quarantine! but i still worry. I've had all of the rescues for over a year, or up to a year now. They were quarantined for about 5-6 months. I still worry though. I mean what if they have something i just didn't notice, or i dunno.

And yeah! well it's true about the healthy part...except for the part that wasn't LOL

[Will0W783]

Parasites are generally a wild-caught snake issue. They are very rare in CBB snakes- they are only transmitted via contact with feces from an infested snake. Snakes that are housed together, kept in filthy cages or fed unclean prey items can get them though. That is why clean feeders are very important, as is good cage husbandry.

I think if you are concerned, you should have fecal tests run before just medicating the snakes. In general, Panacur is very safe (for everything other than pit vipers), but medicating if it isn't necessary isn't the best idea. Snakes can build up resistance to medications just like people, so I only medicate in cases where parasites are confirmed, or I have an obviously sick animal.

[shaunyboy]

Icky, that's a nasty looking stomach. :( It could be a hookworm, but those are usually white. It could also be a whipworm or roundworm...hard to tell from the picture since you can't see the whole worm.
Roundworms can be very long and spaghetti-like. Whipworms are thick at the head and then thin out until they are almost like a hair by the tail (like a whip). They are some of the nastiest and hardest to get rid of.

You definitely did a good job and that blown-up picture answers the question- those aren't sand particles. They are worm eggs and probably bits of damaged stomach tissue. If you opened all the way down into the intestines I bet you'd have seen a LOT more adult worms. The stomach acid is a harsh environment for them so they tend to hang out in the intestines where they can leech nutrients out of the digested food.

The Panacur can be injected right into the frozen/thawed food. I find it easiest to use a 1mL syringe and remove the needle, then squirt the Panacur right into the prey's throat, but with dilution it can also be injected into the prey's muscle using a needle. It's quite convenient. The only time you can't use food is if the snake is not voluntarily feeding, like in the case of my bush vipers. Neither one will take food now, so medicine has to be administered via cannula (VERY dangerous and scary...there is no antivenin for Atheris and they can pack a punch). C. oreganus aren't a joke either...lots of necrosis...but Cro-Fab is effective.


great post Kimberly

very informative,as always

cheers shaun:)

[millertime89]

Good work on the necropsy. Those lesions definitely look like tumors I've seen in other snakes. The parasites aren't completely surprising since this was a w/c animal correct?