A little update

[Bradyloach]

So a little cass update my sav. As most of you know I'm away 2 hours for work and my mom is watching her. My mom turned her into a puppy. She opens the door and Cassie romes the living room and climbs all over her. And goes back in her cage when she wants. For 40 mins a day.

She loves being pet and when you stop she will rub her nose on you untill you keep going, tell me what ya think


http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/bradyloach/94996f23.jpg
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/bradyloach/f903311b.jpg
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/bradyloach/4fb784df.jpg
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/bradyloach/728d62c9.jpg
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/bradyloach/1407a319.jpg
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt351/bradyloach/5caf5f07.jpg

[marvelfreak]

OMG i love the forth picture. That is so cool.

[alessia55]

The photo of Cass with your mom is so sweet :) But that fourth photo is EPIC! :cool:

[GarterPython]

He looks awesome!

[Trent]

Cool pics!!

[infernalis]

So mom and cass are bonding.. cool.

[Dehlida]

So the monitor is venturing out into an environment not suitable for a monitor.

Awesome.

[infernalis]

So the monitor is venturing out into an environment not suitable for a monitor.

Awesome.


40 minutes is not going to kill Cassie.

There are quite a few days in Ghana that drop into the 70's and 80's.... I looked it up on purpose some time ago when I was presented with the same opposition.

It is not always 110 and 90% humidity where they live in nature.

[Gatorhunter1231]

My monitors have been exposed to 60s and even 50s several times. I think it could even be linked to why my croc monitors cycled fairly often in a shed.

[Bradyloach]

Basement is 70 ish when she gets out. Not gonna hurt her! She loves it. Nuff said

[BarelyBreathing]

40 minutes is not going to kill Cassie.

There are quite a few days in Ghana that drop into the 70's and 80's.... I looked it up on purpose some time ago when I was presented with the same opposition.

It is not always 110 and 90% humidity where they live in nature.


This.


Also exactly why there is a gradient in temperature and humidity. Monitors don't stay under the heat lamps all day, nor do they stay in the most humid area of the enclosure all day.

[Dehlida]

Carpet can catch on nails and cause injury.
Stress of people
Accidents involving her getting stepped on, knocking something over.

There is no benefit to letting it roam.

[Bradyloach]

Exercise? Letting her free rome? She loves it or she would go back in her cage. The floor is tile, nothing can fall on her, she is pretty safe..... Floor is tile. No problems With this

[BarelyBreathing]

There are plenty of benefits: Mental stimulation, exercise, tractability...

Providing time for safe interaction and exploration actually helps a monitor become more relaxed and prevents stress when done correctly.

[infernalis]

There are plenty of benefits: Mental stimulation, exercise, tractability...

Providing time for safe interaction and exploration actually helps a monitor become more relaxed and prevents stress when done correctly.

Essentially what D.B. said to me....

also, Photos from David Kirshner, credited on "Life in cold blood" and Lizard Kings, His personal Monitors that he has had for over a decade.

http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/121387889.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/139532916.jpg

[BarelyBreathing]

Where has David gone?

[infernalis]

Where has David gone?


He was away (In the US) for quite a while, I'd bet he has some catching up to do.

[BarelyBreathing]

Well hopefully he finds us soon. :)

[Dehlida]

I can't say I agree with Crocdoc's letting a monitor free roam either.. I could care less who he is, I see it as negative, some see it as positive.

[infernalis]

I can't say I agree with Crocdoc's letting a monitor free roam either.. I could care less who he is, I see it as negative, some see it as positive.

Then we just simply agree to disagree.

Personally, I think that forcing such an intelligent animal to stare at the same four walls 24/7 is rather cruel.

Quantity of life is meaningless without quality of life to accompany it.

[Dehlida]

Then we just simply agree to disagree.

Personally, I think that forcing such an intelligent animal to stare at the same four walls 24/7 is rather cruel.

Quantity of life is meaningless without quality of life to accompany it.

Adding stimulation to an exhibit isn't that difficult. It's commonly practiced in zoos and is becoming a requirement per the AZA now for just about every animal with higher thinking. ;)

[jarich]

Dehlida, aren't you the guy who said he had his monitor outside last week, spraying it down with the hose with a bunch of neighbourhood kids?!

What's that saying about throwing rocks from glass houses?

[mo9e64]

I personally think letting a monitor roam is fine when done responsibly and under conditions which make it stimulating and exercise.To release in a cold room is not exercise based on their biology and they should have the option to retreat somehow to an area which allows them security-
I

[mo9e64]

we keep monitors in cages,if releasing them every once in awhile makes people feel good and doesn't harm the lizard good for you.But many have what appear to be healthy monitors not practicing this so I kind of seeing this as 'the mean well' philosophy where you do things that makes you feel better and may or may not benefit your monitor.

[Dehlida]

Dehlida, aren't you the guy who said he had his monitor outside last week, spraying it down with the hose with a bunch of neighbourhood kids?!

What's that saying about throwing rocks from glass houses?

I'm a very strong believer that certain animals do better with the idea of going outside than others. Savannahs, indicus complex, etc. You also have to be able to take into account if the environment outside is anywhere remotely the same as the natural habitat. My monitor was outside, where conditions were very similar to a natural environment- which is why crocdoc and probably get away with letting his animals out, because he lives in Australia. Colorado on some days was close enough to his natural conditions.

There is a big difference between the outdoors and trying to be natural, and a living room. ;)

[jarich]

I appreciate the poise and civility of this latest response, thank you.

I think your comment about Crocdoc is very true. He is perhaps not the best example to use in this case as his monitors are pretty much from just outside of his backyard. His monitors could likely be outside their cages indefinitely without much notice, if given a basking spot.

However, I would disagree that a half hour of being out of the enclosure would be any real detriment to Brady's monitor though. Monitors bask for short periods of time and then go into burrows or hunt for food for long periods of time. The ambient temps in those burrows and places they hunt would be not much warmer than Brady's house. The ambient temps in Ghana are around the mid 80s, with underground temps being cooler. Im guessing Brady's house is sitting now at the mid 70s since its in the high 70s outside where he lives. Hardly a detrimental difference in a half hour to a warm, active monitor. The humidity levels are actually pretty accurate, as I see in Sudbury the humidity was around 70% today (the humidity in Accra was the same). The only leg to stand on really is the idea that it stresses the animal, and judging from that picture of it sitting on his Mom's shirt, that doesnt seem to be the case.

I would have to disagree about your habitat in Colorado being similar to that monitors natural habitat too. Obviously Im not aware of which part of Colorado you live in, however the humidity in Colorado as a whole is much lower than Black throats are used to, especially if you are out on the plains. Granted the temps are roughly the same right now, but that would only be influential if you were talking about the animal being out for an extended period of time. If we take the stress argument, having to put on a harness and being surrounded by kids and spraying hoses seems like a much more stressful environ than climbing on a 99 degree older woman sitting in a chair inside a house.

The whole point of this was to allow the animal to get some exercise and enrich its environmental stimuli. That can be done just as easily inside as outside. The outside would add the sunlight as benefit of course, but then also requires a harness, which I think is genuinely stressful to an animal.

I think its always easier to condemn someone else's actions and justify our own though.

[infernalis]

I think its always easier to condemn someone else's actions and justify our own though.

I see this all over the web daily....

[GarterPython]

Also to add on to what Jarich said. He had the cage open the hole time so if at any time he wanted to go back in he easily could have just walked right back in.

[Dehlida]

I would also say, I made sure the only day he was outside was a humid day, and he had lots of water nearby from the hose/sprinkler. It was around rain time so humidity was great for him, otherwise yes he would have stayed inside.

[BarelyBreathing]

Can somebody provide a link to this video that is being discussed?

[Bradyloach]

No video! Just discussing. ;) the cage door opens down so Cassie can come and go as she pleases. Only for 40 mins at a time or less. And as soon as that door is out she walks out of it and starts exploring. She heads right for the people. Loves climbing on them and exploring everything about them. Then when she's a little cold or not feeling safe she will walk right back in the cage and I'll close it :$

[BarelyBreathing]

Not you, Brady. Several people are talking about Dehlida's video of a black throat monitor outside being sprayed with a hose in front of several children. They make it sound as though the monitor is being abused. I want to see the video for myself so I can form my own opinion of it instead of going off of others.

Regardless of abuse or not, this member is being very hypocritical.

Brady, I don't see a problem with how you're allowing Cassie to explore. In fact, I would encourage you to continue it.

[infernalis]

Brady, I don't see a problem with how you're allowing Cassie to explore. In fact, I would encourage you to continue it.

^^^^^^this^^^^^

[jarich]

Sorry that might be my fault. I dont think there is any video, Dehlida had just talked about his outing with his black throat in another thread. My description was more to show that we are often quick to criticize others for things that we ourselves do. I was not really meaning to suggest Dehlida was abusing his monitor, merely that it was a little over the top for him to suggest that Brady was.

[BarelyBreathing]

Sorry that might be my fault. I dont think there is any video, Dehlida had just talked about his outing with his black throat in another thread. My description was more to show that we are often quick to criticize others for things that we ourselves do. I was not really meaning to suggest Dehlida was abusing his monitor, merely that it was a little over the top for him to suggest that Brady was.

Understood. Thanks for clearing things up.

[Dehlida]

Anyone who thinks letting a blackthroat out on a nice summer day in Colorado and spraying it with a hose (it has a mist, and a shower setting), is abuse- has mental issues. I can't count the number of people who spray their monitors with the hose on nice summer days and let it bask outside for awhile weather permitting. Hell, I even used to play with my old dog with the hose. LOL.

Also, I'm confused how it's hypocritical to allow an animal outdoors, an a very close to natural environment, and then look down on someone for letting their monitor free roam an air conditioned living room. Huge very easy to see difference here.

I had no problem with wayne taking chomper outside, into a natural environment. I believe there were pictures posted with him on a bed at one point? I disagree with that, a bedroom is nowhere close to natural.

I'm arguing natural and trying to be close to natural, as just wanting to let your monitor out for your own benefit. Very easy to understand and see.

[Jay]

Anyone who thinks letting a blackthroat out on a nice summer day in Colorado and spraying it with a hose (it has a mist, and a shower setting), is abuse- has mental issues. I can't count the number of people who spray their monitors with the hose on nice summer days and let it bask outside for awhile weather permitting. Hell, I even used to play with my old dog with the hose. LOL.

Also, I'm confused how it's hypocritical to allow an animal outdoors, an a very close to natural environment, and then look down on someone for letting their monitor free roam an air conditioned living room. Huge very easy to see difference here.

I had no problem with wayne taking chomper outside, into a natural environment. I believe there were pictures posted with him on a bed at one point? I disagree with that, a bedroom is nowhere close to natural.

I'm arguing natural and trying to be close to natural, as just wanting to let your monitor out for your own benefit. Very easy to understand and see.
Well said.

[BarelyBreathing]

Anyone who thinks letting a blackthroat out on a nice summer day in Colorado and spraying it with a hose (it has a mist, and a shower setting), is abuse- has mental issues. I can't count the number of people who spray their monitors with the hose on nice summer days and let it bask outside for awhile weather permitting. Hell, I even used to play with my old dog with the hose. LOL.

Also, I'm confused how it's hypocritical to allow an animal outdoors, an a very close to natural environment, and then look down on someone for letting their monitor free roam an air conditioned living room. Huge very easy to see difference here.

I had no problem with wayne taking chomper outside, into a natural environment. I believe there were pictures posted with him on a bed at one point? I disagree with that, a bedroom is nowhere close to natural.

I'm arguing natural and trying to be close to natural, as just wanting to let your monitor out for your own benefit. Very easy to understand and see.


Easy there tiger. I was just commenting on how OTHER people were making it sound. There wasn't any mention of a shower setting. The picture that was being painted was an animal being doused with water in front of a wild crowd. That's why I asked to see the video (I thought there was one) so I can form my own opinion.

[Dehlida]

Easy there tiger. I was just commenting on how OTHER people were making it sound. There wasn't any mention of a shower setting. The picture that was being painted was an animal being doused with water in front of a wild crowd. That's why I asked to see the video (I thought there was one) so I can form my own opinion.

Even so, I've had monitors that enjoy the jet setting more than the shower. So a monitor gets doused with water in front of a crowd. How would that ever constitute abuse? Monitors love water, and frequently swim in the pools I provide them. We don't say it's abuse to douse people into water in a dunk tank in front of a screaming crowd do we?

I think you need to learn what abuse of a monitor actually is, because nothing involving a hose spraying water on a monitor in front of children is going to be abusive.

[jarich]

Anyone who thinks letting a blackthroat out on a nice summer day in Colorado and spraying it with a hose (it has a mist, and a shower setting), is abuse- has mental issues. I can't count the number of people who spray their monitors with the hose on nice summer days and let it bask outside for awhile weather permitting. Hell, I even used to play with my old dog with the hose. LOL.

Also, I'm confused how it's hypocritical to allow an animal outdoors, an a very close to natural environment, and then look down on someone for letting their monitor free roam an air conditioned living room. Huge very easy to see difference here.

I had no problem with wayne taking chomper outside, into a natural environment. I believe there were pictures posted with him on a bed at one point? I disagree with that, a bedroom is nowhere close to natural.

I'm arguing natural and trying to be close to natural, as just wanting to let your monitor out for your own benefit. Very easy to understand and see.

Now see, this is a perfect example. You explained how your actions were justifiable (its perfectly natural and everybody does it) and then blow other peoples actions out of proportion to critique (unnatural and air conditioned). No questions were ever asked about what the conditions are in Brady's house regarding temps and humidity, just assumptions made. That was my point in talking about your hose and the kids. Your actions seem justifiable to you because you know all about them and the parameters, however you know nothing about Brady's, automatically assuming they are all wrong. That was what I was referring to.

Personally, I think the only benefit in either case is exercise and mental stimulation, which is just as easy either inside or out.

[BarelyBreathing]

My black throat doesn't use his pool. His humidity is set up properly so he doesn't need to. It's there if he chooses to go in it, but he simply doesn't.

Comparing dousing an animal with water to a person who voluntarily gets dunked in water is like comparing couches to oranges. How do you even come up with those things? Lol.

I never said you were abusing your animal, I simply said that other people were making it sound as though that may be the case. Children are rowdy, loud, and almost incapable of standing still. A group of children can and will cause stress for an animal. Is that abuse? No. It's a stressful situation. On the other hand, depending on how you were spraying your animal with a hose, that could be considered abuse. Is the animal able to get away from the water? Is the water pressure on high enough to cause pain? Are you spraying the animal in the face so that it's inhaling water? These are all things I questioned when reading this. I'm grateful that it was clarified.

[infernalis]

this thread is heading down a path that has the potential for disaster, let's all be careful what we say please.