Unfortunate Savannah monitor situation..

[infernalis]

I moved all relevant posts here, the savannahmonitor.org thread was clouding up with this.

People who know understand what FR stands for, Frank Retes of Goanna ranch.


He's a well experienced keeper, with a lot to offer, provided you have the patience to sift through six tons of rubbish to get to one ounce of decent info, just a little too Narcissistic for my liking.

[BarelyBreathing]

The drama when it comes to monitors is just ridiculous. Just because I believe in feeding a natural diet (I do this will all my animals, by the way, not just monitors) doesn't make me a fool, or a bad person. There is so much hate on some forums. I don't care what anybody says to my face. It's a forum, after all. But talking behind somebody's back... anybody's back, is just cowardly.

[shaunyboy]

The drama when it comes to monitors is just ridiculous. Just because I believe in feeding a natural diet (I do this will all my animals, by the way, not just monitors) doesn't make me a fool, or a bad person. There is so much hate on some forums. I don't care what anybody says to my face. It's a forum, after all. But talking behind somebody's back... anybody's back, is just cowardly.


of ALL the animals of yours,i've seen pictures posted of.....

EVERY single one of them looked to be in perfect condition and excellent health;)

those pictures alone should tell people what you do works 100%

sadly there are lots of google warriors or misinformed clique's of sad people out there,who like nothing more than to stir it up,while hiding behind a keyboard:unhappy:
cheers shaun

[BarelyBreathing]

of ALL the animals of yours,i've seen pictures posted of.....

EVERY single one of them looked to be in perfect condition and excellent health;)

those pictures alone should tell people what you do works 100%

sadly there are lots of google warriors or misinformed clique's of sad people out there,who like nothing more than to stir it up,while hiding behind a keyboard:unhappy:
cheers shaun

Well thanks a bunch for the compliment. It means a lot, and it's great to know that people are still sensible online.

It sucks that these people exist, because not only are they giving new keepers information that could possibly kill their pet, but they do it in a way that makes the correct information look like it's bad, and the wrong information look like it's the better option. I don't know if that made sense.... if not, I can try to clarify.

[infernalis]

Well thanks a bunch for the compliment. It means a lot, and it's great to know that people are still sensible online.

It sucks that these people exist, because not only are they giving new keepers information that could possibly kill their pet, but they do it in a way that makes the correct information look like it's bad, and the wrong information look like it's the better option. I don't know if that made sense.... if not, I can try to clarify.

What you just said makes perfect sense to me.

I am compiling some stuff to help end that madness.

Every single time I try to help out someone (on certain forums) folks like Moe, Frank and his other "minions" turn up with their nonsensical rubbish and call me an inexperienced newb without a clue.

It is not you or I killing all of those Savs out there it is THEM.

I was just reading through a bunch of Frank's rubbish..

One post alone, let's have a look at the contradictions posted. From a man who repeatedly states that he does NOT work with this species of monitor. (I intentionally blotted out the self indulgent chest beating to illustrate the core information only)

http://www.reptard.info/chomp/frankentool.gif

First statements made... I did some extensive research on the weather patterns of the African Savanna plains, there are many days that the average temps are in the 70's, in fact the days over 90 (as Frank suggests) are the minority, the rainy season is short lived, and only during the rainy season are the temps there over 100 degrees.

So therefore, taking my monitor outside on any given day over 70 degrees more closely mimics real world conditions his species is subjected to in the wild.

Second statement made - These animals do not come out... blah blah..

It is common knowledge that Savs go down burrows to cool off, Thermo regulate, the temps down in the burrows can be quite low, so using his logic, they all die down in their burrows, because they NEVER reach that ideal temperature and come back out. DUH!

This is why hot basking spots are essential, so the monitor can come out of his dark, damp and otherwise chilly little hole in the ground and warm up.

His final statement in that post (underlined in red) is the most laughable, When I asked him how old he thought Chomper was, he refused to answer me.

Even though I had stated no less than 3 times that Chomper was 5 years old, Mr. Frank never even read that part of my posts.

He is continually confusing the African Savanna plains with the Australian outback, that is where the biggest pile of misinformation this blowhard narcissistic tool comes from.

[BarelyBreathing]

What matters even more than air temperature is SURFACE temperature. Have you ever measured the surface temperature on top of a log in the sun at a 70f day? Well let's just say it's not 70f.

[snakehill]

Wow! Have read some of their posts! They sounds like someone on another forum that was giving me crap about how I kept my Tegus!

[shaunyboy]

Well thanks a bunch for the compliment. It means a lot, and it's great to know that people are still sensible online.

It sucks that these people exist, because not only are they giving new keepers information that could possibly kill their pet, but they do it in a way that makes the correct information look like it's bad, and the wrong information look like it's the better option. I don't know if that made sense.... if not, I can try to clarify.

^^^^^
made perfect sense

i feel it always best to act on line,as you would with someone standing in front of you;)

cheers shaun

[infernalis]

What matters even more than air temperature is SURFACE temperature. Have you ever measured the surface temperature on top of a log in the sun at a 70f day? Well let's just say it's not 70f.

Oh yes.

Even in the middle of winter, pay attention and you will see the snow is always melted around any exposed rocks or sticks.

It's called "radiant energy"

One of the ways I am heating Chompers cage is a radiant heat source behind it, that in turn heats those big aluminum panels along the back of his enclosure, then they in turn radiate thermal energy into the enclosure.

Another neat trick I am using is to place a bowl of water directly under a 100 watt flood lamp, the bowl of water evaporates quickly into his enclosure raising up the humidity a lot.

[shaunyboy]

What you just said makes perfect sense to me.

I am compiling some stuff to help end that madness.

Every single time I try to help out someone (on certain forums) folks like Moe, Frank and his other "minions" turn up with their nonsensical rubbish and call me an inexperienced newb without a clue.

It is not you or I killing all of those Savs out there it is THEM.

I was just reading through a bunch of Frank's rubbish..

One post alone, let's have a look at the contradictions posted. From a man who repeatedly states that he does NOT work with this species of monitor. (I intentionally blotted out the self indulgent chest beating to illustrate the core information only)

http://www.reptard.info/chomp/frankentool.gif

First statements made... I did some extensive research on the weather patterns of the African Savanna plains, there are many days that the average temps are in the 70's, in fact the days over 90 (as Frank suggests) are the minority, the rainy season is short lived, and only during the rainy season are the temps there over 100 degrees.

So therefore, taking my monitor outside on any given day over 70 degrees more closely mimics real world conditions his species is subjected to in the wild.

Second statement made - These animals do not come out... blah blah..

It is common knowledge that Savs go down burrows to cool off, Thermo regulate, the temps down in the burrows can be quite low, so using his logic, they all die down in their burrows, because they NEVER reach that ideal temperature and come back out. DUH!

This is why hot basking spots are essential, so the monitor can come out of his dark, damp and otherwise chilly little hole in the ground and warm up.

His final statement in that post (underlined in red) is the most laughable, When I asked him how old he thought Chomper was, he refused to answer me.

Even though I had stated no less than 3 times that Chomper was 5 years old, Mr. Frank never even read that part of my posts.

He is continually confusing the African Savanna plains with the Australian outback, that is where the biggest pile of misinformation this blowhard narcissistic tool comes from.


give him this link,i use it for all my weather seasonal temp settings etc
BBC Weather (http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/)

you just put in the locality of the place and " heh presto " it gives you year round weather and temperature reports

make sure it covers the area your needing though wayne,as i don't want to give this guy anything wrong to jump on

i use it for australia,but i'm thinking its a more populated place,than where chomp originates from

i get great seasonal weather reports from it;)

cheers shaun

[Mikey T]

But tell us how you really feel Shaun LOL

[shaunyboy]

But tell us how you really feel Shaun LOL


"i'm sexy and i know it"

you did ask mate:laugh::D:p:yes:

cheers shaun;)

[crocdoc]

I'm bummed the thread was closed as I was going to try explaining something, yet again, but in even simpler terms. I still can't believe I went through the trouble typing out that long post with an example of how his mate's science bashing and stubborn attitude has lead to husbandry failures and all he got out of it (after presumably skimming over it with a closed mind) was that his mate and I had a disagreement and now I am bitter. lol, but duh.

It reminded me of a talk I gave to a herp society meeting last year. The talk was an hour long and all about breeding monitors. I had photos and videos of courting, mating, ovulation, egg laying and hatching. There were graphs and tables with facts and figures, there were fancy morphing videos showing how to sex monitors and videos of the weird poses adopted by a female when gravid - I put waaaay more hours into it than I needed to. At the end, when it was question time, some guy put his hand up and said "I guess you like Ikea" (I'm gathering because he thought a piece of furniture in the background of one of the videos was from Ikea). I looked at him and thought "Really, is that all you got out of that?" then realised I had said it out loud.

(Luckily he wasn't the only person to ask a question and, judging by the other questions, other people got more out of it than my furniture tastes).

[BarelyBreathing]

It reminded me of a talk I gave to a herp society meeting last year. The talk was an hour long and all about breeding monitors. I had photos and videos of courting, mating, ovulation, egg laying and hatching. There were graphs and tables with facts and figures, there were fancy morphing videos showing how to sex monitors and videos of the weird poses adopted by a female when gravid - I put waaaay more hours into it than I needed to. At the end, when it was question time, some guy put his hand up and said "I guess you like Ikea" (I'm gathering because he thought a piece of furniture in the background of one of the videos was from Ikea). I looked at him and thought "Really, is that all you got out of that?" then realised I had said it out loud.

(Luckily he wasn't the only person to ask a question and, judging by the other questions, other people got more out of it than my furniture tastes).


Hahaha, that is pretty funny.

[SpOoKy]

I'm bummed the thread was closed as I was going to try explaining something, yet again, but in even simpler terms. I still can't believe I went through the trouble typing out that long post with an example of how his mate's science bashing and stubborn attitude has lead to husbandry failures and all he got out of it (after presumably skimming over it with a closed mind) was that his mate and I had a disagreement and now I am bitter. lol, but duh.

Don't be bummed, your posts were educational and I enjoyed reading them as I am sure others enjoyed reading also.

[ZARADOZIA]

"Really, is that all you got out of that?" then realised I had said it out loud.


LOL I really like you!!

[infernalis]

Don't be bummed, your posts were educational and I enjoyed reading them as I am sure others enjoyed reading also.

Since that is a closed forum, I will be copying what doc posted here, I too learned a lot, including why FR whines about reproductive failures at virtually anyone who posts a question.

[infernalis]

Bear with me, I'm bringing over some content.. The materials in the following posts are educational and valuable, I'm attempting to spare Doc from having to retype everything...




Thanks!
I was trying to show Moe that FR, while being a good keeper, is far from infallible and sometimes lets his stubbornness get in the way of good husbandry. There was a lot to take in, in that post, so I wouldn't blame anyone for skipping over most of it and ignoring the links within. Here's a snippet, though:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR on April 04 2011 (from one of the links)
In my history with some of those Ozzie folks, I do question the use of termite mounds as a primary nesting site for Lacies.
The reason I question that is, It would leave a very easy to recognize SCAR...
So it would be very very very very easy to identify former nests and current nests. But that does not occur.

Never!
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/78049686.jpg

Here's a photo from last week:
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/140617061.jpg
(I have dozens of these).

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR on Oct 03 2005 (from another one of the links)
For instance, years ago, an ozzie lacie keeper and now breeder, agrued that lacies need termite mounds to lay eggs in. Science showed that in nature, lacies had laid eggs in them. The reality is, we do not have termite mounds and neither does that person(unless he builds a cage around a living termite mound). So that input was useless for us to apply. Not about whether its right or wrong. For us keepers without termite mounts, that information is wrong.

Completely useless, wrong information. No application whatsoever. Someone forgot to tell her that (the conduit at the bottom supplies heat to the nest box, so that it's heated from within like a... termite mound, strangely):
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/118472186.jpg

Here's a photo a mate took in the wild last year, for comparison:
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/134472230.jpg

Some more captive/wild comparisons:
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/107086735.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/134472233.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/118472181.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/crocdoc/image/134472232.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by FR on Dec 13 2011 (from the third link)
Just to make it a bit real, I produced well over a hundred lacies, from four females, some laying five clutches a year, AND I STILL DID NOT HAVE NESTING RIGHT. As I lost each and every female to early reproductive failure. Some well over that five clutch thing.

For anyone unfamiliar with monitor breeding, reproductive failure is usually from an inability of the female to find a suitable nest site. They'll often lay somewhere, anyway, but retain the eggs longer than they should and ultimately it kills them. The 'hundred lacies' is a bit of a furphy, for unless he ate them no one in the US can account for more than around 15 to have come out of his place, so even if we assume that a number went to keepers on the quiet, without ever being advertised, there may have been 20-30. The species will likely soon disappear from the trade in the USA because almost no one is breeding them. It's not hard to breed them even if one just has a vague idea of how they nest in the wild, rather than follow a stubborn belief based on personal dogma. Most people that buy this species turn to him for advice, with similar results. It used to be frustrating to watch all of this from afar, but now I just shrug and think "whatever".

Recently one of his sycophants suggested that it must be easier to breed lace monitors in Australia than in the US, even when they are housed indoors in both countries. Must be the magic Australian air coming through my windows, eh. Maybe I should offer to bottle it and ship it over there, at a price?

[infernalis]

I'm bummed the thread was closed as I was going to try explaining something, yet again, but in even simpler terms. I still can't believe I went through the trouble typing out that long post with an example of how his mate's science bashing and stubborn attitude has lead to husbandry failures and all he got out of it (after presumably skimming over it with a closed mind) was that his mate and I had a disagreement and now I am bitter. lol, but duh.

It reminded me of a talk I gave to a herp society meeting last year. The talk was an hour long and all about breeding monitors. I had photos and videos of courting, mating, ovulation, egg laying and hatching. There were graphs and tables with facts and figures, there were fancy morphing videos showing how to sex monitors and videos of the weird poses adopted by a female when gravid - I put waaaay more hours into it than I needed to. At the end, when it was question time, some guy put his hand up and said "I guess you like Ikea" (I'm gathering because he thought a piece of furniture in the background of one of the videos was from Ikea). I looked at him and thought "Really, is that all you got out of that?" then realised I had said it out loud.

(Luckily he wasn't the only person to ask a question and, judging by the other questions, other people got more out of it than my furniture tastes).

I got a lot out of it, aside from some great Lacie info, Now I understand why Frank carries on about reproductive stress to everyone who ever posts anything...

I just don't for the life of me comprehend how a Savannah Monitor from Africa even remotely has anything to do with Lacies???

No matter who posts about what, it's always the same old thing, "breeding stress, failure, death..."

It's his own guilt trip eating at his soul or something.

Just last week, he bashes Vets, then two posts down suggested electrolytes.. (Administered by IV infusion)

So are we to believe that a total newb is supposed to procure a supply of Normosol-R, a catheter line and IV needle, then inject a sick lizard all on their own without any help from a vet?

[crocdoc]

is crocdoc thae bad one or good one?
You should always read and make your own decision, beardeds4life.
(but thanks, anyway, Infernalis!)

The gist of that whole thread was pretty much that - avoiding supporting everything someone says just because you think that person is a 'good guy', rather than paying attention to the content. Moe automatically accepts everything FR says as gospel because he's heard FR tell him over and over again that he's an expert. I tried to give Moe an example of why following anyone blindly can be hazardous.

Yes, that's one of my youtube pages (the other only has two videos on it at the moment and is planned to be my 'professional works' page). I've been working on a big project the past while, preventing me from updating my crocdoc2 youtube page. I have reams of unedited video of all sorts of things (wild monitors, updates on my captives etc) and hope to have a chance to add more to the youtube page later this year.

[infernalis]

Crockdoc is ace.. A great guy with a sound mind.

Revision: Who displays humility as well. :)

[beardeds4life]

Crockdoc is ace.. A great guy with a sound mind.

Oh that makes SO much more sense now.
@crocdoc I did not realize you were on here too sorry...

[crocdoc]

No need to apologise. As I said, I'd be happier if you drew your own conclusions. Mostly I like to see myself as a 'good' guy, but sometimes I know I go off the rail and need to take a break from the forums :)

[BarelyBreathing]

No need to apologise. As I said, I'd be happier if you drew your own conclusions. Mostly I like to see myself as a 'good' guy, but sometimes I know I go off the rail and need to take a break from the forums :)


Yeah, I know what you mean.

[BarelyBreathing]

I was considering a while back getting three female (blood tested) savannah monitors from the same clutch, and setting them up in separate but identical enclosures. One would be fed all inverts, the second would be fed an invert/rodent diet, and the third would be fed SDZ. I would be working closely with my vet to measure health and levels, chart their growth, their weight, and eventually egg production. I talked it over with several other experienced savannah monitor keepers, and the conclusion was all the same. It would be cruel, because, well.... we know the outcome.

[shaunyboy]

I was considering a while back getting three female (blood tested) savannah monitors from the same clutch, and setting them up in separate but identical enclosures. One would be fed all inverts, the second would be fed an invert/rodent diet, and the third would be fed SDZ. I would be working closely with my vet to measure health and levels, chart their growth, their weight, and eventually egg production. I talked it over with several other experienced savannah monitor keepers, and the conclusion was all the same. It would be cruel, because, well.... we know the outcome.

i know nothing about lizars but.....

imo you would need a larger study group

at least 2 but better 3 lizards ON each diet

just incase 1 lizard had a physical problem,that could manifest itself as a possible dietery problem,for example, a well above normal metabilism.if you had another 2 on the SAME diet,then the other 2 having normal metabilisms,would indicate lizards 1 diet was not the problem

i hope the above makes sense,let me know if it don't and i'll explain better pal

its a great idea for a study though

cheers shaun

[red ink]

He seems to be a trained parrot that's learned how to type instead of speak. He's been keeping monitors for a relatively short period of time, yet carries on with the conviction of certainty - all based on a word-for-word parroting of FR dogma. It's bizarre that someone can be so adamant about things he knows so little about. Even if some (clearly not all) of the stuff is actually correct information, why not wait until he has a real understanding of monitor husbandry (ie based on experience rather than second-hand information) before leading a crusade?

That's an abridged version of what I said to him when he left the forum with his tail between his legs: http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varanid/86329-power-feeding-3.html#post620565


Just wanted to say HI Dave :).... man good to have you on here.

My wife is still talking bout the "love rug" from the VHS meeting lol.

[BarelyBreathing]

I totally agree, but I just don't have the facilities to study on large numbers. It really doesn't matter much, because the same people who are mentioned in this thread will continue pushing a poor diet and make up some excuse as to why this study is wrong, no matter how many are tested.

[infernalis]

I totally agree, but I just don't have the facilities to study on large numbers. It really doesn't matter much, because the same people who are mentioned in this thread will continue pushing a poor diet and make up some excuse as to why this study is wrong, no matter how many are tested.


Why not? they continually contest Daniel Bennett, they contest Vets with masters degrees, They contest people who actually live where the Varanus live, hell they contest themselves half the time.....

Did you see where Stefan agreed with me today, and even posted a great link to get the book at a great price?

Tomorrow he will put you down for quoting the book.

[crocdoc]

On another note, I recently joined another forum and Stefan (AKA murrindindi) is there too, he's a little more flexible than Moe, but equally a parrot.

Sadly, he will agree in an email, and then pull a 180 on forums.
I'm very familiar with him. My summation is that he's a lonely guy that gets almost all of his human interaction out of hanging around forums in the hopes he'll be seen as an 'expert'. He'll post a parroted response on almost every thread. Most of the information is okay, but sometimes (like Moe) he just blindly follows his idol. He often refers to his vast 'experience' but that consists almost solely of keeping a single Varanus ornatus (in an undersized enclosure, I might add, as the animal was huge) for fourteen years and a young Varanus salvator for the past year or so. I ran into him a couple of years ago when I dropped in on a forum and he tried accusing me of being part of some imaginary 'gang' that was trying to oust him from his 'expert' throne. I hope I kept the PMs, as they were paranoid and hilarious. We get along better these days but, as you say, he'll do a complete 180 on any thought he has if his idol disagrees with him.

Just wanted to say HI Dave :).... man good to have you on here.
My wife is still talking bout the "love rug" from the VHS meeting lol.
Thanks! I may have asked you before, but did you come up to say hello after the talks? I've asked this of a few people, because a number of people on the forums told me they were there but most didn't come up to introduce themselves so I STILL can't put a face to the nicknames! Having seen those talks, you can probably imagine my frustration after giving the same two, hour long talks on the Gold Coast to then have someone's one and only comment being "you sure like Ikea" (or something to that effect).

[crocdoc]

Tomorrow he will put you down for quoting the book.

Tomorrow he will edit his post. :)

[red ink]

Thanks! I may have asked you before, but did you come up to say hello after the talks? I've asked this of a few people, because a number of people on the forums told me they were there but most didn't come up to introduce themselves so I STILL can't put a face to the nicknames! Having seen those talks, you can probably imagine my frustration after giving the same two, hour long talks on the Gold Coast to then have someone's one and only comment being "you sure like Ikea" (or something to that effect).

Unfortunately I did not come up to say (definitely will if you are ever presenting out in Vic again), I had an early start the next day for work and pretty much left right after. I still can't believe that's a question :confused: ... I have now tried the cling wrap over the incubation container technique for my geckos and so far I've had two hatch this season without me having to "air" out the container (so thanks that was a great tip).

I've also been more meticoulous about records this year thanks to you... You wouldn't happen to be making an appearance at the VHS expo in Feb would you?

[Little Wise Owl]

Awww, I missed all the fun. Monitor debates, scuffles, disagreements and arguments are a guilty pleasure of mine. haha

[SpOoKy]

WOW!!!...that is all.

[crocdoc]

I've also been more meticoulous about records this year thanks to you... You wouldn't happen to be making an appearance at the VHS expo in Feb would you?

You'll be thankful for the records, down the track. I have just picked up my annual A5, day to a page diary (for the goannas last week), in fact.