Why do these things have to happen? :(

[Will0W783]

I feel like if it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all, sometimes. I have been exceedingly careful with who I buy animals from the last 6+ months, and every newcomer has at least a month, if not 2-3 months of quarantine, depending on the species, who I got it from, and any issues that pop up during quarantine.
One of my absolute favorite snakes, she's more like a dog to me, is my superdwarf retic, Baby. I got Baby two years ago off Craigslist from a guy whose girlfriend was moving in and said it was her or the snake. Baby has been a dream to own- she has been invited to photo shoots with professional models, come to herp club meetings with me and my neighbors' kids are always asking me to bring her outside to play in the summer. They hug her and pet her and she appears to eat up all the attention. I could not have asked for a better snake than Baby. She's even helped many of my friends get over their fear of snakes.
Last Friday I had Baby out to show friends and was handling her and she was her usual curious, friendly self- crawling all over them and getting lots of love and attention. Wednesday I went to feed my snakes, and Baby did not come out to eat. She never refuses food- when I pulled her out a bit, her head was lolling around and she couldn't move right. Her tongue flick was also very slow and exaggerated. I pulled her all the way out into a bin and examined her. When I would try to pick her head up, she'd kink it weird to the side and flop over. She could right herself if flipped over though. I immediately panicked and called my vet, but he couldnt' see her until yesterday. Thursday night she was still flopping her neck around and appearing to be "stargazing" but by yesterday morning when the vet visit came around, she was limp and couldn't pick her head up at all. My vet at first thought IBD, but there've been no new unquarantined snakes, and Baby's mouth and throat were 100% clean. Her tongue flick was still very slow and her eyes were pointing in opposite directions. He said the onset was too fast as well, and he honestly doesn't buy it as IBD, but it's still terrifying, and I don't think she will survive. He's afraid of paramyxovirus, but I can't find anything online about it- does anyone here know anything?
Obviously, we can't rule out anything for sure until we get tissue biopsies. I don't think my sweet Baby will survive the weekend, and if she passes I have to have her body sent out for testing, so I can't even bury her. I have been a wreck. I"m absolutely terrified I let something horrible into my collection, and I have so much time, money, and emotional attachment invested in my animals, I don't know how I will handle it if it turns out to be the worst case does turn out to be the case.
Does anyone here have any experience with paramyxovirus, or other neurological symptoms and what else could cause them without any respiratory or gastrointestinal signs? I'm at my wits' end and broken hearted to see my sweet Baby like this.

(Also, Wayne, can I imbed a video into this thread? I took one of how Baby was acting)

[shaunyboy]

im so sorry to hear this kimberley

i will see what i can find out for you

although it is sad situation to be in,its good you videod her symptoms

as hard as it is to say .....

sometimes we learn more from bad experiences than good ones

it definatley sounds neurological pal

with being unable to right herself etc.

speak to you soon

all the best shaun

[Will0W783]

Here is a video from my iPhone of how she was acting Wednesday night.

[shaunyboy]

heres a link
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CC0QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wildlifehealth.org.au%2FAWHN_ Admin%2FManageWebsite%255CFactSheets%255CUploadedF iles%2F122%2FOphidian%2520Paramyxovirus%2520in%252 0Australian%2520Snakes%25205%2520Sept%25202009%252 0(1.1).pdf&rct=j&q=paramyxovirus%20in%20snakes&ei=YKwDTeeNIZD4sga5kcTmCQ&usg=AFQjCNF2s3MhMGDlBHewwXlO_JjEpEpjmg&cad=rja

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CEMQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vetmed.ufl.edu%2Fcollege%2Fde partments%2Fsacs%2Fresearch%2FOphidianParamyxoviru s.html&rct=j&q=paramyxovirus%20in%20snakes&ei=YKwDTeeNIZD4sga5kcTmCQ&usg=AFQjCNFow61AJzj1vs8bgA5xaOxy6psQRQ&cad=rja

heres one from melisa kaplin ive read a few of her studies
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CB0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.anapsid.org%2Fparamyxovirus.h tml&rct=j&q=paramyxovirus%20in%20snakes&ei=YKwDTeeNIZD4sga5kcTmCQ&usg=AFQjCNHn54F_bsqgFYGmITn6L1XRYjdmgA&cad=rja

i put paramyxovirus in snakes into google and there were plenty results.

cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

Darn, the video didn't upload- it's definitely neurological. It's just a matter of what it could be other than the IBD. The onset and worsening of symptoms was soo fast, it doesn't make sense. Also with no newcomers I can't imagine how it could have gotten in there....I am hoping someone can tell me more about paramyxovirus or any other ideas on what it could be.

[shaunyboy]

Here is a video from my iPhone of how she was acting Wednesday night.


i cant see a link or anything to your phone video pal


it could be some kind of anurism type thing kimberley

the best case scenario would be something along those lines

a viral disease would be a lot worse

i really hope it turns out to be something that will only effect the one snake

my heart goes out to you as you've had some very bad luck this year re your collection

cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

I know...I uploaded it but apparently it didn't attach properly. Hopefully Wayne can pop in and help me out. It's a .mov file.

[shaunyboy]

I know...I uploaded it but apparently it didn't attach properly. Hopefully Wayne can pop in and help me out. It's a .mov file.


did you have a look at those links to paramyxovirus ?

do they appear to match your retics symptoms?

i wish you well in all this kim i really hope its not something really bad.losing any snakes is heartbreaking.fingers crossed its neurological to just the retic

cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

It just doesn't add up. She is not twisting, stargazing or even moving, unless I prod her and pick her up, then her neck is limp. She is not responsive to light and her tongue is not pulled all the way in. She appears dead until I nudge her and see her twitch. The back section of her body appears to be fine though- she can still hold on to things with her tail if she is stimulated to move. I have watched so many videos of snakes with IBD and they seemed to be in constant twisting motion, not this limp until I'm forced to move then I can't move properly condition that Baby is in.

Thanks so much for the links Shaun- but again, they all seem to mention really bad respiratory signs, and Baby's mouth and throat are perfect. She has not exhibited any signs of respiratory distress at all, at any point in the two years I've had her. She went from 100% normal and active to severely neurological in less than a week, and I didn't use any odd cleaners in there or let her crawl around where she could have gotten into anything toxic. I just don't know, and it's killing me. I love her soo very much; I can't imagine life without Baby. It just hurts. And I'm terrified for the rest of my collection now.

[Lankyrob]

So so so sorry to hear this willow, will be thinking of you and your animals and praying for their health. As shaun said i really hope it is either something that cna be cured or something restricted to the one snake.

Please keep us updated and we will all be sending positive thoughts your way............ << HUGs >>

[shaunyboy]

as hard as this is to have say to you kimberley.....

its not looking good for her but the symptoms do not match ibd or paramyxovirus

so thats a good thing regarding the rest of your collection

its sounding more and more like something has caused her neurological system to disfunction

a stroke type thing,brain anurism something along those lines

i know that its no consilation re your retic but it is for the rest of your collection

i really hate having these conversations with caring friends in bad situations

like when feebo went through his ibd scare

so i try to keep to facts and logic

please excuse me if i have come across cold at anytime.i am trying to reassure you that this may mean the rest of your snakes will be ok

im sorry about your retic willow we all know how much your snakes mean to you

im sure everyones hearts will go out to you pal

all the best shaun

[Will0W783]

Thanks Shaun and Rob. Shaun, you have not come across as cold- anything but. I really appreciate your advice and help and knowing you also think it's got to be something else. I am already resigned to the fact that I will most likely lose Baby. I will miss her terribly if, and when, she passes, but right now I have to be concerned about the rest of my collection and making sure they also do not succumb to whatever this is.

I've got Baby isolated and have been changing my clothes whenever dealing with her. She isn't sneezing or opening her mouth to breath or anything, so I think the risk of aerosolization of secretions is low.

[Ch^4]

I'm very sorry to hear about Baby. She will be in our thoughts and we only hope the best for Baby, you, and the rest of your collection. Again, good luck and continue to be strong.

[Will0W783]

Baby is now not flicking her tongue at all, nor responding to any stimuli. She's still alive, though, because she grips with her tail when I pet it. I don't think she will last through the night. I told her I love her and said my goodbyes, now it's just waiting.

[Marica]

Sorry to hear you're going through this Kimberly. Stay strong. Hugs and warm thoughts.

[percey39]

Im so sorry to hear Kim.

[infernalis]

So sorry Kim. It sucks.

[presspirate]

I am very sorry to hear this Kim.:no: Please accept my very best wishes that things turn around. I know how much you care for Baby.

[shaunyboy]

how are things today with her kimberley ?

cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

Not good Shaun. I didn't think she'd make it through the night, but she's still here. She can't move her head or neck at all, and is not tongue flicking or moving her eyes. She is still gripping with her tail when I pet her, but it's getting a bit weaker. I am going to call my vet again tomorrow morning. I can't stand to see her suffer like this. He was hoping the vitamin B shot would give her some strength but it doesn't seem to have made a difference at all.

[Jenn_06]

im so sorry to hear this, but you will really never know until you get a some test done, on another forum we been talking about IBD i really hope your snake does not have it but its a good read Inclusion Body Disease - Redtailboa.net (http://www.redtailboa.net/forums/health-issues/67065-inclusion-body-disease.html)

[shaunyboy]

a mellisa kaplin's paper on it.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.anapsid.org%2Fibd.html&rct=j&q=inclusion%20body%20disease&ei=qOkETaPVHoewhAflr-3NDg&usg=AFQjCNF0Qc3f3Q-GvDvGHIpoMVesvnshvw&cad=rja

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.anapsid.org%2Fdeanne.html&rct=j&q=inclusion%20body%20disease&ei=qOkETaPVHoewhAflr-3NDg&usg=AFQjCNH78CH-6CYJk-cuMqiFcO-6VKHTIA&cad=rja

as sad as it is kimberley it may be better to end her suffering if your sure theres no way back for her

use the rest of your collection to keep you strong pal

all the best shaun

[shaunyboy]

as you have said she is showing no other signs of either ibd or paramyxovirus

imo its sounds like a neurological problem with herself


the rest of your collection will be ok if this is the case

all the best shaun

[Corni_snake]

:'( This is so damn sad and upsetting to read! Willow I hope your baby snake all the best!!!!! and you my heart goes too! =(
xxxxxx please keep updating!

[nanna]

So sorry to here what you are going through with your baby we may never understand why. I hope the rest of your reptile family is ok

[Aaron_S]

This is a very terrible thing to experience with one of your pets. I'm sorry you're having to go through this.

The only thoughts on what it could be is that it still could be IBD. I'm not 100% on that though but you did bring a large female boa into your collection in the past few months. From my knowledge about the disease is that in boas it can lie dormant for years so it's not like you could have known this. In pythons though, it kills rather quickly so I'd keep an eye on your other pythons just in case.

I know it doesn't make up for anything Kimberly but take a bit of solace in the fact that if it is IBD you couldn't have seen it coming. On a precautionary note, take a look back into where you got that boa and check Fauna. PM about that please because I read something interesting regarding IBD.

[Damion930]

my prayers to u

[pythonman]

Hello there.
This is a terribly sad thread, one of the downside of keeping reptiles is we as the carers, and the keepers of these majestic animals are still learning, and when it comes to aillments, we are a long way behind the understanding we have for the warm blooded friends we have.That said research, and knowledge is increasing.... but this increase in knowledge is only happening at the expense of the animals we love.Baby sounds a fantastic snake, who has been loved and cared for and been enjoyed by many, a special snake, who has changed peoples perception in favour of the animals we share our lives with. As with any friend we never want to be without them. But Willow you have been privilidged to have been in a position to have shared part of your life with this remarkable animal and your friend.
Over my 30 odd years in this hobby, i have been frustrated and saddend that i did not know more, Why did that hatchling die in the egg? Why did that snake have a internal problem?, and the worse one and the one hardest to bare is Why did this snake die after been with me for 20 year.The sad truth is Willow these things just happen, be strong enough to know when your friend has had enough... and be ever so grateful you shared very special times with a very special snake.Look toward the rest of the collection to provide some comfort.
All the very best to you
John:)

[Lankyrob]

^^ Great words ^^ nearly got me in tears here. I just wish i could write so eloquently.

[pythonman]

^^ Great words ^^ nearly got me in tears here. I just wish i could write so eloquently.
Its not the words that make us sad Rob, its that inner passion we all share for the love of the animals we keep,we can all relate to and feel Willows pain, and in sharing the good and the bad times we can all offer the hand of our friendship and understanding.

[shaunyboy]

Its not the words that make us sad Rob, its that inner passion we all share for the love of the animals we keep,we can all relate to and feel Willows pain, and in sharing the good and the bad times we can all offer the hand of our friendship and understanding.


such eloquent and wise words john

this is the first time i have ever thought of this situation in such a way

a wise old irish man once told me no matter how bad a situation is.....

if you look hard enough you will always find some good

somtimes you have to look really hard,but its there



kimberley could you please let us know how things are ?

i hope you are as well as can be expected at a time like this

all the best shaun

[Will0W783]

Thank you to everyone for your kind words. I had to take Baby to be put down tonight- she was not going to get better, and I couldn't let her go on like that any longer. My vet is taking tissue to be tested for virus isolation and bacterial infections. I should have the results within a week. I have some wonderful memories of Baby- she was a snake like no other, and she'll always have a special place in my heart. The good ones always go too soon.
I'll let everyone know when I have some answers.

[nanna]

My condolences to you for the
Loss of your beloved baby I am so sorry to here she did not improve it is never easy to loose a pet.

[percey39]

Im so sorry for your loss Kim.

[Ch^4]

Our condolences to you and your family.

[red ink]

Sorry for your loss mate, it's never easy saying goodbye to a good mate.

Forgive me for saying this though but i believe i must point it out if the cause of her untimely death is the proxyma virus then the rest of your charge are in danger as it is highly contagious and could easily wipe out a collection. I don't much of any real cure for it other than preventative quarantine measures as you said.

[Freebody]

Im so sorry for your loss Kim, she really sounded like the perfect snake. R.I.P Baby :(

[Nafun]

It's never easy to lose a snake. Hopefully the postmortem tests can give you some closure and peace of mind.

[Lankyrob]

RIP Baby, my thoughts and prayers are with you, your family and the rest of your collection Willow - will keep my fingers crossed for you

[shaunyboy]

imo you done the right thing kimberley

as you have said she showed NO signs or symptoms of inclusion body disease or paramyxovirus

there are a lot more symptoms to them other than being unable to right themselves and star gazing

if your vet performed a post mortem as well as tests he should have seen signs of the above diseases if they were present in internal organs,spine,etc

my hopes are high for your collection

my heart goes out to you at such a sad time pal

the best shaun

[Will0W783]

He's doing the postmortem and sending brain, liver, and pancreas out for virus isolation tests. They're also going to test for toxins in the blood and liver, to see if she could have ingested some toxic chemical somehow. I'm hoping that it will come back as no virus- paramyxo isn't much better than IBD. It's more contagious, but at least has a 60% survival rate. I'll keep everyone posted. In the meantime, I'm only doing maintenance with the snakes- no handling or moving about or excessive time in that room until I know what was going on. I will fill water dishes, ensure the temperatures are steady, and clean any large wastes, but it's pretty much on lockdown until I know what was going on, so I can minimize the chances of me spreading anything around the room.

[shaunyboy]

there were NO respiritory issues which imo is a very good sign

ibd can show lesions on internal organs that should be visable during the pm

i honestly have very high hopes for the rest of your collection kimberley

if it was ibd your carpets would have gone by now

morelia dont survive past the 4 week stage with ibd

again if it was paramyxovirus there would have been internal signs during the pm

i know the wait for results can be very anxious and frustrating times

each day that passes without any new health problems is a day in the right diection and stregnthens our hope in everything else being all right

all the best shaun

[Xanafein]

Im so sorry for your loss, i wish you the best with your quarantine and hope no one else is lost

[dragunov.762]

i am sorry to hear about Baby. I hope that you don't have to suffer another loss to you collection.

[marvelfreak]

My deepest heart felt condolence. I have my finger cross for you and the rest of your babies.

[siz]

I'm so sorry to hear that Kim! Baby was a beautiful python.
Good luck with the rest of your collection. Sending good vibes!

[Jazzard]

I'm so very sorry for your loss. It's so hard to have to make that decision, but when your friend is suffering there is no choice. I had to make that same decision earlier this summer and my heart is just breaking all over again.

I hope the tests come back with good news.

Stay strong and give lots of love to your other friends!

[belovedboas]

awwwwwww my heart goes out to you Willow........very well said python man

[Will0W783]

****UPDATE****

My vet just called and they have finished the testing on the liver, pancreas, lungs, and spleen. No inclusion bodies or signs of tissue destruction anywhere. They are still working on the brain, but at this point, it's not BOID. With how sick she was, there would have been signs in the liver or pancreas. The vet is still thinking it's paramyxovirus or another retrovirus, but nothing showed up as respiratory tissue destruction. They are going to finish the brain and run some more testing on the respiratory tissues, and I should have a final report by the end of the week. There is another veterinarian who might want some of the tissues to do further research as well, since this was not by-the-book by any means for paramyxovirus. (NO respiratory signs at all). But at least I can breathe a bit easier than I'm most likely not looking at losing my other snakes. I just have to be careful for a few months to make sure nothing gets spread around, provided the final report decides paramyxovirus.

[Lankyrob]

Glad its "good" news Willow, keeping my fingers crossed that the good news continues.

[marvelfreak]

11258Sweet that good to hear. 11259

[Will0W783]

Well, it's bittersweet news. If it does turn out to be paramyxovirus, I still have a few months of careful quarantine ahead of me. I have to be careful not to transfer anything from one cage to another, but I really think it had to be a fluke. Paramyxovirus always attacks the respiratory system, from what I've read, and this didn't. I'm going to be implementing some changes to my normal husbandry routine though- sterilizing tongs between each snake, sterilizing scoops when cleaning cages, and being careful not to let snakes get any secretions onto my clothes. I will be wearing rubber gloves when cleaning cages, and disposing of them between cages.

[deighaingeal]

Would you mind terribly if I presented this thread to Dr. Beck? He is the head of the herpetological department at my university. He is always interested in cases where the symptoms do not make sense.
Although his research is more based on Northern Pacific Rattlesnake (Crotalus oreganus), he has always been willing to answer questions on specifics for every student that I know. Obviously he won't know what was wrong without being present, but before you get a definite from the vet it would be interesting to see what he says.

[Will0W783]

I would love that! I also have a few videos of the snake showing symptoms. If you want to pm me, I can text message or email the videos to you. I would be very grateful for any help or opinions on the case!

[deighaingeal]

My phone hates me. Try me at deighaingeal (at) gmail (dot) com
I hope he can be of some help.

[Will0W783]

I will email you. Thanks. I hope so too, but at the least it should be of interest to him. This whole case has been very bizarre, and I miss my Baby terribly, but if her passing can help others not have to go through this with their snakes, then it wasn't all for nothing.

[Reptile_Reptile]

did the professor come up with anything new???

[Will0W783]

Just an update guys- official testing came back from the vet and there was no evidence of BOID. No inclusion bodies in 5 organs tested and negative response to protein testing. However, there are other possibilities that could be not much better. My vet suggested going with a 3-month lockdown and assuming it's paramyxovirus, but it just doesn't fit that well. So I pushed for the viral isolation/cultures and they are going to do those for paramyxovirus and Ophidian virus. It is about $150 per isolation, but in my mind that's a small price to pay for closure and a definitive answer on how to handle this. So far everyone else is still eating and healthy. It will be about 2-3 weeks for the isolation results to come in. I'm crossing my fingers it comes back negative for paramyxo.

[Ch^4]

We'll keep our fingers crossed for good news as well.

[Lankyrob]

FIngers crossed for good news.

[Will0W783]

Thanks guys. I managed to find some scientific papers on paramyxovirus, and a vet website about it, and in the cases reported in those papers the deaths peaked between 2 weeks and 1 month, and then tapered off after 3 months. It's been almost a month since Baby first showed signs, and all my other snakes are healthy- no RIs, no death, no neurological abnormalities. If this really was paramyxo, I would think at least one other snake would be sick. Baby was the largest snake I had and never had a sniffle in the time I had her, so it seems odd that a communicable disease would take out only my largest, strongest animal. I am treating things as though it was and is communicable, but I'm hoping they won't find anything in the isolations.

[Corni_snake]

all the best willow! fingers are crossed for you, did that dr beck ever get back to you? xoxoxoxoxoxoox

[Will0W783]

Dr. Beck talked to deighanghel a bit, but I never heard directly from him. He did have a few ideas, that it might be brain hemorrhaging, but my vet says the lab found evidence of viral "encapsulations" during the necropsy. Tissue is being sent for viral culture on Monday, and I should have results in a week-10 days.

[Corni_snake]

Dr. Beck talked to deighanghel a bit, but I never heard directly from him. He did have a few ideas, that it might be brain hemorrhaging, but my vet says the lab found evidence of viral "encapsulations" during the necropsy. Tissue is being sent for viral culture on Monday, and I should have results in a week-10 days.

Ok thanks for the update willow! Let me knoe of any new news! Hope your doing alright! Xoxoxoxo

[Will0W783]

So far, so good.

[PyramidScheme]

i'm terribly, terribly sorry:no:. i have only had my snake two months and i get more attached to him every day (honestly if i didn't have a significant other i'd prob be researching and buying plenty more). again i am so sorry, and i am so very glad to hear the rest of your awesome collection haven't been affected by this.

[infernalis]

you have my sincere apolgies Kim, but this thread just got slammed with 14 spam messages in very short order.

The spammers are ruining our threads!!

I have to close this one temporarily to prevent the spam for now.

[infernalis]

The problem has been solved, The thread is now open again.

Thanks for understanding and please resume the original conversation, do not reply to me here. Thanks.

My two posts here will be removed tomorrow.

[Will0W783]

**************************UPDATE****************** ***************

Ok, the vet just got my viral test results back yesterday. The tissues from Baby tested negative for Paramyxovirus and Ophidian virus. Those were the only other really bad things it could have been. It's been 2.5 months and none of my other snakes have so much as a sniffle, so the vet and the lab didn't feel it was worth running the West Nile virus isolation test...if that had been what it was, I would definitely have other sick snakes.

SO, my collection has a clean bill of health!! Now I can finally breathe easy and sleep a little better. :)

[Lankyrob]

VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY glad to hearthat willow!!!!

[Will0W783]

Thanks Rob. It sure was a long wait for that good news.

[Sapphyr]

Reading this thread made me cry :c So glad to hear everything's ok with your other snakes, though, really sorry about your horrible loss, on the other hand :c She sounded like the most amazing snake around, but she's in a better place, now, and no longer suffering. She knows you loved her dearly and tried your best.~

[marvelfreak]

Great news Congrats.

[Reptile_Reptile]

Amazing news I wondered what the vet was going to say about this just a few days ago