Defanging/ Devenomizing

[RandyRhoads420]

So It can be done if I was to find someone to do one of these procedures what kind of cost am I looking at? Will the fangs/ Venom glands grow back?

[infernalis]

How can I word this?? Oh well......

The whole concept of hacking up an animal to make it into something that nature never intended it to be is sickening.

I consider it about as humane as surgically implanting a horn onto a horse because you want a pet unicorn.

There is only one "company" in the USA that even cares enough to do the procedure properly, and you are looking at a huge bill to have it done.

It's just about the worst idea in the history of bad ideas.:mad:

[citysnakes]

if you cant keep a venomous animal then dont keep a venomous animal.

[dragunov.762]

If you really need a venomiod snake than the only huname way to get one it to adopt one that has already had the surgery and the owner still didn't want it DON'T BUY ONE you are only furthering the means for people to mutilate animals. there are some up for adoption (search google) but having the procedure done or buying one from someone who had the procedure done i (and most of us) feel is inhumane. I agree with city snakes, if you don't want a hot herp don't get a hot herp.

[Will0W783]

I have to say I agree with everyone- if you don't want an intact hot herp, don't get a mutilated one. There is a surgery done to remove the entire venom gland, but it is very painful to the snake and if not done perfectly the animal can end up with debilitating facial deformities, as the volume of the gland keeps the fullness of the head and without it they can get sunken in. Also, some venomous snakes rely on their venom to help them digest prey and they have a much harder time absorbing nutrients without it. Finally, there is no guarantee that the operation will have removed 100% of the gland cells. If there is even a tiny bit left in, the gland will regenerate and then you'll have a venomous snake on your hands that you think is safe...NOT a good situation. Do your research, and if you decide you want to get into hots, get a mentor to teach you how to properly work with them...intact.

[RandyRhoads420]

I consider it about as humane as surgically implanting a horn onto a horse because you want a pet unicorn.
.

It's just about the worst idea in the history of bad ideas.:mad:

OUCH lol ok scratch that idea.

[Will0W783]

Yeah, we are pretty passionate around here, and venomoids (devenomized snakes) are a rather large controversy.

[emseeKAY]

well, as you can see its quite looked down upon within the community, sure it would be great if you could have an inland taipan and have no reprocussions from its venom but its not worth sacrificing the wellbeing of the animal for this... would you like your teeth ripped out so that you were considered "safe"

again if you cant handle a hot, dont get a hot, and knowledge is power! maybe someday this will be oulawed...

[RandyRhoads420]

I'd like a couple hots....I know i'm not ready yet. But my main concern is the hospitals around here only carry Crofab.....nothing for cobras :(

[Will0W783]

You might want to stock your own then or stick with Crotalid species. Like I said, best bet is to start looking around for a mentor and start training.

[RandyRhoads420]

I looked at prices and if i'm not mistaken they cost thousands per vial. Where would you even purchase them?

[Will0W783]

I am not sure...I think you would have to get a doctor's prescription, as most antivenins are regulated. Yes, vials costs thousands of dollars apiece, and it often takes several entire vials to treat a bite. Another thing to consider is that health insurance will not cover any portion of treatment from a captive snake bite, so if you get bitten by your hot, you will have to fork out for emergency room care and antivenin injections- do NOT try to treat yourself. Either way a mistake will cost you thousands of dollars, so that is also important to consider.

[Aaron_S]

Don't forget that if you did somehow purchase some they have a relatively short life span. A few years at most and they need to be stored properly as well. You're probably looking at 7 - 10 vials at least for one evenomation.

[percey39]

I would never consider surgery to keep hots. I am glad it is illegal over here, i know some people still do backyard jobs which is disgusting. As others have already said dont get a hot if you are not confident enought to even keep them as they naturally are.
Get yourself some training on hubandry and handling. Also try and find some one who has kept hot's for an extended period of time to teach you how to read movents of the species you want and also learn proper handling techniques.
Anti-venom is free still over here which is lucky for those that do get bitten. I could not imagine losing so much money on treatment, but i do still keep a fair bit aside for the fact it can take a while for some to fully recover after initial treatment.

[Hillsberry]

I am hoping I am not sounding mean but I think Defaning is one of the meanest things anyone can do. Really if you can't handle a venomous animal then dont get one. Those animals are born with their fangs. They deserve to keep them. I am sorry but I think thats the worst thing a person can do. If you want a venomous animal go talk to someone who has some and see if you can see them and handle them. To see how you react. Sorry :/

[Will0W783]

Defanging is generally not the norm- most of the times the surgery is to remove the actual venom glands and ducts, leaving the fangs intact. If you remove the fangs, they will grow back. But without its fangs the snake cannot grab and hold onto prey properly and most end up with mouth rot and die before the fangs can grow back. Like Wayne said, there is ONLY ONE company in the entire USA (Venomoid, Inc) that has a licensed veterinarian do the glad-removal surgery, provides implants to take up the space from the removed glands and gives the snakes pain medicines. Their animals come with paperwork and customer service and generally seem to do well, but venomoid surgery has not been around nearly long enough for anyone to speculate on how they will do long-term. It is unnatural, it is most likely detrimental to the snake, and will most likely shorten the lifespan. Also state and local governments do not recognize the existence of venomoids, so if your area outlaws keeping venomous snakes, then venomoid snakes are illegal too.

[infernalis]

Vonomoid also puts a tattoo in the snakes mouth, but if someone saw a loose cobra, they will kill it first, not even looking for a tattoo.

[Will0W783]

I don't understand why people kill snakes in the first place. Just call someone to come catch it. Don't kill it- it's not doing you any harm.

[infernalis]

I will never understand it, but people do it all the time.

[Will0W783]

It's a shame. I can understand being afraid of a loose cobra but don't kill it!

[infernalis]

2 summers ago my neighbor called me over to ID a snake.

There was this poor little baby milk snake, a hatchling that never even ate it's first meal, cut into 3 hunks.

I was livid, I wanted to chop up the neighbor with his own shovel.

Why even call me over?? I would have gladly relocated the snake had it been alive.

[Lankyrob]

I wonder - for bee keepers you cna register with local police forces so that should a swarm of bees be reported the police contact you and you go and collect the bees to take them somewhere safe (normally back to your own hives).

IS there - or should there be - a similar register for snakes?? Maybe not so important in the UK but in other countrires where snakes in the wild are more common it could save the lives of lots of snakes.

[Will0W783]

I think that's a great idea, Rob. The problem here is that a lot of people won't bother to report a snake, they'll just shoot it or hack it with a shovel. I'm terrified of wasps, but I won't go around killing them...when I see them I run the other way. It's respect for nature. If something isn't trying to harm me, I'm not going to try to harm it. If it comes after me though, all bets are off...lol.

[infernalis]

I am well known as the "snake man" and it has actually cost a snake it's life once.

A young man saw a garter snake in his yard, he tried so hard to catch it, that by the time he brought it to me, it was already mortally wounded.

I had to instruct this kid that I did not need any new snakes, and if he saw a wild snake to leave it alone.

My friend Steve is well known in his area, He relocates snakes all the time.

He even has a wild caught albino, someone called him to report a white snake in the yard.!!!

[emseeKAY]

people are afraid of what they dont know, during my project I couldnt believe how many people thought all snakes were venomous (most said poisonous though) maybe if they knew what they were afraid of it may save some lives...

[infernalis]

what you just said reminded me of the time I freaked out this old biddy.

She was getting all nosy about my snakes, and she asked me "are they poison??"

I simply looked at her and said "I don't plan on eating them, so I don't really know"

It didn't shut her up though, CPS was here within the week. "We have a report of reptiles in your home with kids"

The report got tossed out.

[jparker1167]

its not illegal to have reptiles in your home so what report would they have made?

same here wayne people call me the snake man, but anyone that has more then a few snakes people call them that lol.

[infernalis]

A false report of venomous and giant pythons out to kill the neighborhood.

The hatred runs deep between us and the neighbor.

[spankygaaarge]

I don't understand why people kill snakes in the first place. Just call someone to come catch it. Don't kill it- it's not doing you any harm.


I'm going to put my 2 cents worth in on this subject........ i'm from a very small town in outback West Australia, ALOT of snakes (extremly venomous) in the top 10 most venomous snakes list) and there are no "Animal control" or "Snake men" around !!!! our town has a lot of curious children, some scared mothers and over protective fathers (mine were), most kids and adults know to avoid if you can, but there are the few cases where babies(children under 4) have been biten simply for walking near or accidently stepping on snakes in their own backyard, the first instinct for parents is to kill it an take it with you to the nearest hosp. as ID for antivenene.........
but then there are some who think that the best way to prevent a bite is to kill it first.........
Now i'm NOT saying this is right, but i am saying that there are reasons why SOME ppl kill them, i'm not speaking on behalf of every person who kills snakes but i will speak for those in the before mentioned community, that sometimes they have a valid reason............ not everyone has someone to call to come an relocate a venomous snake..........
i DO NOT however agree with having a snakes glands removed simply so someone can have a "pretty and dangerous pet" to show off to their friends.......... :)

[Will0W783]

I know...I can understand if you've been bitten or are trying to protect your family, but in most cases a snake would rather escape than waste its venom on you. I know there are cases where snakes are particularly aggressive, or your child is too close and killing it is the only way you can think of at the time. I was referring more to people who take a hatchet or shovel to every garter snake, milksnake, etc that they find in their yard.

[infernalis]

I know...I was referring more to people who take a hatchet or shovel to every garter snake, milksnake, etc that they find in their yard.


I hate those people, see it frequently.

[RandyRhoads420]

I don't want this because i think it would e cool to have a "pretty and dangerous pet" The point is so it's not dangerous....if there was a cobra that was safe I would just go with that...and I dont mean a FWC...

[Lankyrob]

Any venomous wild animal is gonna be dangerous for the whole of its life. I dont think there will ever be a "safe" venomous snake.

[spankygaaarge]

i appologize Randyrhoads, think i sounded a little bit bitchy, but i wasnt meaning to be, just trying to explain that there are reasons for killing snakes, some justified some not, but like rob said it doesnt matter what venomous snake you have its gonna be dangerous , but i think what makes them Beautiful, is the fact that they're dangerous, and maybe you should just enjoy them from afar........ (unless you get trained on how to handle em etc etc etc) then you wouldnt have to alter them :)

[Will0W783]

Great point Terri!

[infernalis]

Usually whenever this subject gets brought up, no matter what forum it happens to be in, emotions will run high.....

most all the seasoned snake keepers I have encountered are totally against this form of surgery to alter the snakes.

[percey39]

Usually whenever this subject gets brought up, no matter what forum it happens to be in, emotions will run high.....

most all the seasoned snake keepers I have encountered are totally against this form of surgery to alter the snakes.

I agree infernalis. Most people i know who keep hots aswell get very fired up about this subject. We are a very touchy bunch, maybe its because we are always on the short end of the stick in every other discussion or maybe we are just nutter's plain and simple lol.

I never believe killing a snake is the only option. I would relocate any snake free of charge in my area if it was only going to be killed by someone who is driven by fear or too lazy to look through a phone book to try and call. This is not directed at anyone on here, there are lot of pathetic people here who like to brag about killing snakes and i have had enough of it.

[Terence]

I prefer them fully loaded.

[venomousluva]

You can buy A/V for around 200$ USD per vial and yes you will need around 7-10 vials per bite but its been noted some taking up to 30 vials that's just rough but IMO i would get 10 vials minimal = around 2000$ and finding a safe source to order it from is a whole another problem if it isn't stored properly it goes bad and it will take allot of convincing to a doctor to inject you with your own a/v even if its good and will save your life 2000$ is very cheap to live to see another day and yes that's what i pay i'm sure there is other manufactures out there selling these vials for 2-5 times that amount so it all comes down to research then more research and even more research take your time like they say speed kills...and so do hots when you got no A/V ... keep it safe cause 1 mistake could be your last . Take care.

[emseeKAY]

unfortunately people buy or catch hots for the novelty of having something bad *** and end up getting tagged because they dont have the proper provisions. that being said there are many who also do the right thing and take proper care of themselves and the animals I.e. buying anti-venin etc. however, how many people who take proper precautions do you hear of in the news? zero. its always the idiots who get on the news and give everyone else a bad rep. personally i think if you cant handle the animal "fully loaded" so to speak, you shouldn't own it. we don't rip a dogs teeth out because it can bite us... nor should we to a cobra, rattler, taipan, whatever.

also is there any difference between anti-venin, and anti-venom? and how does it work? lol :D

[BlindOne]

also is there any difference between anti-venin, and anti-venom? and how does it work? lol :D

I've always thought it was two names for the same thing, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[emseeKAY]

I've always thought it was two names for the same thing, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

i'm wondering if it is the way they fabricate it to counteract the venom injected by the snake, kinda like lava and magma? lol if that makes sense...

[Nafun]

They're regional. anti-venin and anti-venom mean the same thing.

anti-venin is from the original french, anti-venom is the anglicized version.

[emseeKAY]

They're regional. anti-venin and anti-venom mean the same thing.

anti-venin is from the original french, anti-venom is the anglicized version.

ahhh... gotcha lol

[venomousluva]

yup same horse syrup

[BlindOne]

yup same horse syrup

Isn't CroFab made from sheep?

[Nafun]

yah, crofab is made from sheep, because sheep anti bodies are closer to human anti bodies than horse.

Of course, given that it's made by pharmaceutical companies, it's probably no coincidence that sheep are much, much cheaper animals than horses.

[BlindOne]

yah, crofab is made from sheep, because sheep anti bodies are closer to human anti bodies than horse.

Of course, given that it's made by pharmaceutical companies, it's probably no coincidence that sheep are much, much cheaper animals than horses.

I know that serum sickness from horse antivenoms was a very serious issue that was to be avoided at all costs so maybe it's not only because sheep are cheaper.

[percey39]

I think there will nearly always be problems anti-venom and serum sickness. I believe they linked basic allergies like hay fever and such to people who had severe problems with the anti-venom. I also believe there were a few cases where people went in anaphalactic shock because of such allergies, which can be fatal in a matter of seconds. It certainly gives you something to think about when owning hots.

[Nafun]

I'm not saying that it's not safer made from sheep. It is. I just think if they could make it cheaper, but less safe, with guinea pigs or rats or third world children they would.

[emseeKAY]

I'm not saying that it's not safer made from sheep. It is. I just think if they could make it cheaper, but less safe, with guinea pigs or rats or third world children they would.

LMFAO i wasnt expecting that last bit hahaha

[BlindOne]

LMFAO i wasnt expecting that last bit hahaha

Nafun just gave some corporate executive an idea :eek:

[emseeKAY]

somewhere there is some Mr. Burns-esque CEO saying "excellent" lol :P

[venomousluva]

All in all its very nasty to drip A/V into your vein , i think with enough research the very large keepers of Hot's & zoo's should build a little barn and raise something that's safest for humans to bang up their arm making your own properly would be a intelligent way to go in case their not doing it already. getting it threw a supplier can be kind of iffy cause like Nafun said they could be using who knows what i wont even go there. So defanging & voiding & running over little kids on bikes ya 90% of people want to pluck your teeth for bringing it up it.. BUT i can say something positive about that and that would be if you absolutely are going to get 1 anyways get from someone selling there's it would even save you 1-3rd the cost to. BUT maybe one day it will get ya!? and find out the sac rejuvenated just enough to hold and inject a few mg's into you and then your like whoa i don't feel so well oh oh. . cheers everybody!

[Evra0914]

How can I word this?? Oh well......

The whole concept of hacking up an animal to make it into something that nature never intended it to be is sickening.

I consider it about as humane as surgically implanting a horn onto a horse because you want a pet unicorn.

There is only one "company" in the USA that even cares enough to do the procedure properly, and you are looking at a huge bill to have it done.

It's just about the worst idea in the history of bad ideas.:mad:
I agree, if you do that.... well it's just a really bad idea!!!! :eek: Like infernalis said it would be like taking a horn and straping it to a horse and painting the horse pink, so u could say you have a Pink Unicorn as a pet! It's just cruel!

[MacAdder]

Venomoids are created because some cowardly person wants to own a ‘venomous’ animal without the consequences. It’s like removing the wings from a bird because the owner does not want to take the chance that the animal may escape due to his or her ignorance.
The reason people want to keep venomoids is so that they can brag by free handling a potentially dangerous snake to impress your mates? Or because they just enjoy infecting unnecessary pain and disfiguration on innocent creatures for no reason?
If you thinking of getting a venomoid why not just get a corn snake.