does anybody have ...

[lizards_rule]

a green tree monitor if so how are they as pets?
also what do you think is a good monitor to have as a pet?
thank you
yves

[Jeff_Favelle]

If you don't have at least 5 years experience with monitors previously, I ask that you refrain from getting a prasinus , not that you'll be able to find one anyways.

As for beginner monitors, I'd try an Ackie or a Storr's monitor. Get you tank WELL set-up in advance to buying one of the smartest reptiles on the planet.

Good luck! :D

[Matt]

I agree with Jeff, Ackies are good monitors to start with...and emerald tree monitors are not a great pet and should only be kept by experienced keepers.
they can get fairly expensive too!

[Dragoon]

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/512/596ravenmouse.jpg">



Do you, Matt, even have a tree monitor?
What do you guys base your statement that they make bad pets on?

I have a V. becarri, considered by many to be just a color morph of the V. prasinus.

In terms of size, temperament, cost of keeping, and viewability, I'd say they rank right up there with the acanthurus.
As a display animal, mine is awesome. Completely diurnal. Up with the sun, and down, too; he does not hide during the day at all. My friend has the green trees, and they are the same.

He hates being picked up, but then most monitors do too.

He doesn't like eating anything other than mice, crix, and roaches; but then, all that other stuff shouldn't be staples anyway. (ground meat, eggs, mealworms, waxworms, fish, organ meats- he won't touch them)

They require more humidity, but then, most indo monitors do. Do they make bad pets, all of them?

If your message to the forum is that there are harder monitors out there to kill, then yea, you're right. These guys don't carry the body weight that a sav or nile does, so they die quicker.
Too bad for the savs and niles.

Not meant as an inflammatory post, as I killed a nile myself, some months back. The vet diagnosed tapeworm, and it didn't take too long after that. Entirely my fault.
D.

[Matt]

dragoon,
first, yes, my statement was meant as a warning that they sometimes die quickly in captivity and it is not a beginner monitor.
I agree they are beautiful and someone with experience can defineitly make them thrive, but are you honestly going to tell me that you think a green tree monitor is a good choice for a first monitor (cause thats all i said). I think there are at least a dozen monitors that i would recommend above a green tree as a first.

....and, second, no, I have never had one in <b>my</b> house, but i worked at a zoo in which i was the primary keeper for a group of <i>Prasinus</i>, and have had some experience with the one at the Toronto Zoo while i worked there.....so i condsider myself to be at least somewhat experienced with them, otherwise i wouldnt have responded to this thread

[Dragoon]

I was more replying to your assertion that they do not make great pets.
The becarri is my first monitor. I have read lots about how they are nervous, mean, and fragile. I'm supposing now that the people who wrote such things were dealing with recent adult imports. I'm fortunate enough to get a LTC.

I wouldn't recommend any monitor to someone inexperienced with herps, there are easier to care for lizards.
What I'm finding is that someone wanting to care for a monitor properly, isn't going to be able to do that, without doing a lot of research. Most books on them are outdated, and even amoung current discussions on them, outdated topics are still brought up.
UV lighting, anyone?

Thanks for responding, and might I say, you are extrememly lucky to have worked with them in a zoo!! Do you have any tips on cage furnishings for these guys, as mine obviously is getting a new cage soon. Wire mesh is very bad for monitors.
Do they dig straight down, or make more shallow burrows? I have no problem using a steel trough as a base for his new cage, but if depth of dirt is not as necessary for this species, I'd like to build something a little more aesthetic, just wood and glass. I haven't come across this information, yet.
Thanks for any comments. D.

[Matt]

if they are kept heathly, im sure they do make fine pets, i just think that if one is to keep it healthy, they need some experience first, and i agree, any monitor is not a good choice for a first herp

both the zoos i worked at kept them in similar caging conditions,
all glass of course, with huge tree branches. The one at the Toronto Zoo has a huge branch over top of a nice pool, and he was always up there, he seemed to like it above the water.
As you know, they love the height....all of the Prasinus i worked with liked to get as high as they could.
I never worked with any synthetic furnishings, only live trees and cut tree branches.....pleaced in a nice secure fashion, they seemed to like moving around alot

as for substrate, cypress mulch was the case. and i can only comment on what i saw, but i never saw them burrow, so i dont know how they do it....we were having a REAL hard time getting the trio to breed, so i missed out on that part.

Im sure there are people out there that know much more than me about these guys, so feel free to correct me or add anything

thanks

[Dragoon]

OK, I'm curious, where did the zoo prasinus sleep?
Did you ever find out where they went?
I have mine on cypress mulch, too, and he choses dark places. He likes it under pieces of cork bark , and the hide I made out of an overturned wicker basket, stuffed with moss, and a hole cut out of the side. But I've yet to see him dig, even a little.
He's not on dirt, like he should be, so I dont know about the burrowing, either. But people with a TON of monitor experience claim that all monitors are burrowing animals, so I'm trying to believe that one. Its taking a real leap of faith, though.
I look at those delicate thin paws and arms of theirs' and think to myself, that they are just NOT cut out for manual labour.

Do they utilize other animals' burrows in nature?? Do I have to provide "abandoned" burrows for them to choose from? This is an idea I'm toying with, making burrows in dirt, and in hollows up high, and seeing where he chooses to sleep.
Again, any thoughts on the subject are welcome.
Thanks for the conversation.
D.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Goon, are you seriously saying that a beccari or prasinus is a better first monitor than an ackie or storr's? I find it hard to believe that you are saying that if you indeed you are.

Also, I hope you aren't supporting the wild-trade by suggesting someone get a WC monitor (where ya gonna get a CB prasinus? Stefani doesn't have any for sale) over a CB Aussie Dwarf?

I find this thread highly interesting now.

[Dragoon]

Nope, not saying that at all.

CB is the better choice, for the animal, for the owner, and for the environment. But like you said, finding them is the problem. Maybe more hobbyists should attempt to breed the monitors they have?

I also didn't say that they are the BETTER first monitor.

I have seen some ackies recently, and they get quite large enough to satisfy the large lizard urge! Colorful, too, I was impressed. Friendly little things, too.
The storr's were, well, small. Cute, ...but really small.

All I'm saying, is that I disagree with the statement that the trees don't make great pets. I hardly think my tree monitor is a one of a kind, stellar example of its kind. It's just a monitor, and a nice one, if you like the freaky look.

Getting a pet is all about personal preference. This guy is asking about tree monitors in particular, not just "what kind of monitor should I get?" To the general type questions, I always recommend Ackies as well, if you've read any threads I've been on. My whole point is, the trees are not the easiest monitor, but they are doable, if you care to learn about them.
And they do so make great pets.

If someone is going to kill their tree monitor, then they would probably kill whatever else kind of monitor they got, as well. Just maybe not as fast...

Thoughts?
Goon.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha, that's funny you mention that "large" thing because after seeing that ackie that Frank posted, I'm thinking that ackies almost get too large!! (Jk, sort of). I had no idea they got so big! Kind of cool I guess. A 3-foot ackie is way more impressive to me than a 3-foot Savannah! (just me though).


And your are kind of preaching to the converted about trees! I haven't had the opportunity to get what I'm after (also a space-thing) but prasinus and becarri are in my thoughts every minute of every day, no lie. Man I envy you getting to interact with one at your whim!

You know I've been thinking and maybe an Ackie isn't a good choice as a first monitor? Maybe it being so bullet-proof will mask the inadequacies of the keeper and cause a false sense of sorts? Think about it (please humour me Goon, LOL!). Getting a monitor that will basically live through anything but a bullet hole in the head might not really teach you much about what monitors are all about. I could keep an ackie alive on pinkies and wood chips for 15 years, but would I learn anything? Maybe getting a more fragile monitor would provide husbandry clues that would be more blatant than subtle? You might be on to something. I never really thought of it that way.

Its a tough call. On the one hand, you want every event (the keeping of reptiles) to be a successful one, but on the other hand, you want to learn and progress. That's hard.

I still say though, that ackies or storr's are the better choice for a first time keeper due to CB being available and the level of experience needed to keep them alive.

Thanks for the great discussion. Man, this board is alive in great discussion now. This is how learning occurs!! Well, that and in my sleep (when my real ideas come to me!!). heh heh..


Thanks Goon. :D

[Dragoon]

hmmmm

An ackie IS a good choice as a first monitor.

What needs to change is this:

Just keeping a monitor alive and breathing for years should NOT be the goal.
What we people need to do, is spread the word, that there is so much more to monitor husbandry. So that people AREN'T just content with keeping them alive on wood chips and pinkies.

Doing normal monitor things should be the yardstick.
Digging burrows.
Hunting their food.
Pairing up.
Reproducing.

A bullet proof monitor like an Ackie, will still NOT produce offspring if kept wrong. So they are an excellent starter species, because they grow fast, and give results of good husbandry fast. (People are impatient!)
New people keeping them can then go:
are there no burrows?
are they not growing?
are they fighting?
are they not laying eggs?
are they eating their eggs?
A yes to any of these questions, means more changes have to be made, as something is wrong.

Incase you missed the thread I was on, I posted that I was happy that my big wildcaught monitor is much more calm and accepting of me. She had even climbed up on my shoulder. I thought I had made "progress".
I was told, in reality, being accepting of ME is not the same as being accepting of her captivity. She is not doing normal monitor things. I gave her a live mouse, and she did not kill and eat it. That's how messed up she still is.

I am thankfull that people are making me think about the quality of their lives. Because while I bought them, and legally own them, they do have a right to live. Its their life, and I do care.
Dragoon.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yes, but look at the level experience you have and the mode of thinking and points of reference at your disposal. Think a newbie would have the same perception/read on things? I doubt it. Look at the k__ngsnake.com monitor forum and see how many people say they are monitor experts because they kept their Savannas and water monitors and nile monitors bla bla bla "alive" for 3 years back in the day. That's where MOST people are coming from and that's why they will not be so in tune with all the clues that monitors give them. They are the most blatant reptiles you could possibly keep in terms of clues. We know that. How many other people do you think know? Not many. And certainly not any first-time owners. SO when they keep their ackie on cypress mulch or perlite or sawdust and it grows like a weed and never bites them, they are going to think that they are successful monitor keepers. And then they are going to pass this info on. That's not a good thing.

I KNOW an ackie won't produce eggs on crap substrate. But the goal of 80% of the keepers out there isn't really to breed. Now that ackies have dropped in price to reflect their ease of keep, more newbies will be owning them not for breeding, but for enjoyment. So they will miss a ton of info on substrate as it won't be in their peripheral.

I didn't miss that thread of yours, but your WC monitor is not the norm. At least not from my experience. And someone new to monitors is going to have a hell of a time with the green or black Godzilla on their hands. If they didn't already know the deal with prasinus and becarri, then chances are they don't have a clue what they are in for when it gets to their house.

My head hurts.

[V.aw]

Black tree monitors are one of the best monitors to purchase. For temperment they're pretty good, as long as you wear gloves. Their claws are killers. They don't eat much, and always display themselves, and imo they look awesome.

But, 90% of them are WC, so they will come with parasites.. Any newly aquired V.prasinus, or V.becarri should be seen by a vet asap.

[Dragoon]

You sure about seeing a vet ASAP?
What if they aren't showing symptoms?
How much poison do you think these guys can handle?
What if they've already been dewormed multiple times by the exporters, importers, and the pet shops/ wholesalers?

I am only repeating things I've heard, that it is better to find out as much as you can, and then deal with the individual animal. And make desicions like that carefully. With the help of a good reptile vet. A regular cat and dog vet will want to treat for every organism found. If the animal isn't doing poorly, is this necessary? Many don't think so, as the drugs themselves may cause more harm than the organism.

You made a blanket statement on a public forum.
What if I just bought one, read your advice, and dewormed and killed my already stressed animal.
Could I get mad and blame you? Send you the body?
Please be more carefull.
This is something I'm trying to do, too. I'm trying to post less, and only about stuff I have direct experience with.

I have no proof that deworming immediately is necessary, nor do I that it is not. I don't know. What I do know, from my medical background, is that yes, some drugs are worse for the body than the dieseases they treat, so I only urge caution. And getting a qualified opinion.
See the diff?
10 years ago, everyone urged me to feed my iguanas dogfood. Even the pet store guy. Good thing that many people repeating something, did not make it true.
D.

[Dragoon]

I also take it that you keep/ have kept in the past, a black tree monitor??
D.

[Dom]

Dragoon -

I got to say - that post was inspiring .. you made very good points ..

Jeff - I agree with many things you say but there is one thing that strucks me its that u generally refer to Sav's and niles and water as the type of manitor that hardy and will live through any conditions .. I agree on this in general but disagree that they give no clues .. If u meant that the beginer keeper can't catch on to the clues then sure..

3 years ago when i started keeping monitors I got my first savanah and a water. .. Tey were both on cypres and for the longest time too .. I read many things but nothng told me what i was doing wrong was wrong and never picked up on any clues they gave me .. ( I WAS basically the typical bad keeper of monitors)

But now my husbandry is COMPLETLE different and i can't even beleive how rewarding and how expressive these animals really can be in a proper enviroment..

I don't really knwo what I am babling about but just want to put my word in there..

And as fr the blck tree's .. I personally think there amazing monitors ... I work with two LTC of a good 5 + years and they are by far teh easiest monitor to keep IMO although i am sure a New WC would be very hard.. I personally thinks its easier to make a LTC or even wc balck tree thrive then a savanah or a water or a nile .. Just my oppinions .. although I would never ever recomend them as a first monitor .. actually ..

I think first time moniotr keepers should not be aloud to keep monitors lol If that make any sense .. U can read all u want but the majority of what u learn comes from the animal .. its **** u can't read up on learn from someone else..

mahhhhh

Dom

[V.aw]

Dragoon -

Vetting them is important, or deworming them yourself if you can.
I guarentee you no importer/wholesaler will or has dewormed the animals. In canada there are next to no good wholesalers, that actually do so. Working in pet stores, and purchasing from all of the big names brought me to this conclusion. ( I was medicating each reptile that I purchased after I monitored them for any visable worms, and believe it or not you would see very visable parasites in almost all the monitors that came in.)

Just from my Exp, every wholesaler tries to sell out their monitors asap if they are WC (with the exception of Sav's, as they do very well providing they are kept in optimal conditions) We had a baby black roughneck come in.. Looked great, was very active, then within a few days it went downhill.

I mean, yeah i completely agree, med's arent always the best, But i personally trust my own judgement alot more than I'd trust any of the pet stores/wholesalers out there.

[V.aw]

Sorry, another note.

Any monitor being kept under optimal conditions can usually fight off most of the basic parasites on its own. Husbandry is the key!

[KaHane]

We have a trio of the black trees and hopefully getting a pair of green trees soon. I must say they are rewarding and wonderful animals, but they are no way a beginner monitor. As for medicating your animals, I agree with V.aw. Under optimal conditions they can fight off most parasites, just as long as the enclosure is kept clean and all fecal matter and substrate that has made contact with it is removed immediately. When we recieve a recent import, the first thing we do is quarantine it and give it a place that isn't stressful so it could rest. Then we get it to feed and we wait until it feeds on it's own for a couple of weeks before we decide to do any medication on it. The KEY is to get it healthy before you medicate it. If your animals is weak and stressful while you medicate it, it will most likely die. Not necessarily only from the medication, but also from the buildup of dead parasites in it's system that the medication killed. So an animal that is stressed and weak from being recently imported will not have a strong immune system to take the medication and it's aftermath( Buildup of dead parasites in it's system) Just my thoughts and experiences.

[Jezabel]

This discussion is really interesting!

Any pics of your trio KaHane? Are they adult? Are you trying to breed them. Keep us update if you get the prasinus :D

[KaHane]

Hopefully I will get some new photos up of the Kimberleys and black trees, First I need a new camera!!

[V.aw]

KaHane, what types of monitors have you produced? I noticed you've got one heck of a collection.

[Quakezombie]

Very good discussion fella's !

Myself, i have "babysat" 1 Nile and 1 Asian water (long term).
You ALL know i preferred the latter,hehe.

The local herp shop around here has only had 2 GTM's and 5 or more BTM's over the years (6,7,8 ?),as well as many other highly exotic herp's.So rare is definetely the word to use.
(It is a very nice mini-zoo :) )

So yes i too long for the day i have the confidence/experience to keep one of these beautiful aboreal monitors properly.
Just isn't that day yet.

Envy runs rampant around here though LOL,
Nice Black tree man,very nice !

[KaHane]

Jezabel, I have gotten eggs from my black trees but everytime they were infertile. This year I'll be pairing up the females with another male and hopefully everything will work out. Monitors are very intelligent, all you could do is give them what is necessary to survive and breed, but it'll still be up to them if they actually want to produce. Maybe they do not like each other, or are not stimulated to be fertile or maybe the male is just not fertile. Who knows, I just enjoy having them and studying their behaviours. If I they do produce, that's just a BONUS!! Everyday is a learning process, I'm the student and they are the teachers, and I'm not near graduating yet:D
V.aw Thanks, Our collecton of monitors just keeps on growing and this year HOPEFULLY!! with some luck and alot of hard, but enjoying work we should have kimberleys, Whiteheads, Black trees, and Cummingi's(Golden Water monitors) Producing. Past years we have produced both the Yellows and Red Ackies, but have gotten out of them and looked forward to other species. We have been searching for a Trio of Green tree monitors for some time now, and hope to have them in a couple of months:D