Savannah monitor care

[Will0W783]

I just got a juvenile Savannah monitor on Saturday. I'd say he's about two feet long, including his tail. He was WC, and I did research online and am treating him with Panacur (fenbendazole) for internal parasites. Externally, he's clean. I fed him a dozen crickets when I got him home and he ate them right up, so I know he's eating, but he seems a bit thinner than pics I've seen online.
His setup is a 57" x 26" x 24" glass tank with a plexiglas hinged lid that has a small screen cutout to put the heat lamps on. I just got the tank yesterday, and am setting it up tonight. He's temporarily in a 30-gallon breeder tank. I am curious as to what the best substrate is for him- at the store they had him on sand, I've read newspaper is best on some sites, and others say a deep soil/sand mixture is best. Still others say cypress mulch. I intend to use a UTH and a heat lamp at one end, and a UVB lamp as well. The heat lamp and UV lamp will be placed on the screen cutouts, and the UTH will be on that side, slightly more to the center, so that it creates as good a gradient as I can manage. I know he needs to be at 85-95 daytime with basking temps up to 110 and 75-80 at night, which shouldn't be too hard if I put the lamps on a timer and leave the UTH on all the time.

I also am curious about the best feeding schedule. I have frozen rodents on hand for my snakes, so I can try to offer some of those as well. I have also read that raw meat and premium canned dog food can be used as treats. Any suggestions or what others do would be appreciated.

He's not aggressive at all, but struggles to get away when held and will try to jump out of my hands, so once his big tank is all set up tonight, I'm not going to try to handle him for a few weeks. I will just let him see that my hands bring water and food to him and let him get used to me before I try handling again. I don't want to stress him out too much.

I'll try to get some pictures tonight once I have the set up complete, but I'm hoping for some pointers on the substrate soon so I can make sure I have that all perfect for him before I introduce him.

[emseeKAY]

Congrats on the addition! ive done a bit of reading on monitors (but PLEASE dont quote me on this) and from what i can see most monitors love to dig and whatnot so id probably go with the soil mixture. hopefully someone with more experience on here can tell you! good luck kim! hope to see some pics soon!

[Will0W783]

Ok. Will do. I will try to price out some soil and sand and see if I can pick some up tonight. I imagine it won't be too bad to get some topsoil and mix it with sand.

[infernalis]

See the PM I just replied to, it's loooooong.

I had not even checked posts yet, or I would have put it here on the board.

Congrats on your new friend!

As for handling, we let Chomper free roam the house often, and he does not seem to mind being held.

[Will0W783]

Cool! I hope mine calms down quickly. He's already not biting, but squirms and he scratched my hands up real good in the pet store..lol. I look like I got attacked by a rabid cat or something.

[jejton]

Why buy WC and CB are so easily found?

[Aaron_S]

First and foremost, so you've just impulse bought a monitor and some scorpions?

Secondly, ditch the UTH. It's not needed. Proper lighting from above is all the animal will need. They are a basking species and just need an appropriate one. You may not achieve the right temps for basking with just a single light. You need to use the mix of soil/sand. I believe that will hold for all the burrows it'll make. As for diet, I do know that a mix of items is very good for them. Crickets along with various worms and the occasional rodent is good. There is a particular diet that works wonders for monitors and I'm not going to try and repeat it as I don't want to get it wrong.

I hope he does well for you.

[infernalis]

Why buy WC and CB are so easily found?


Sorry to contradict, 99 percent of all "CB" savs are eggs stolen from nests in the wild, or gravid females "collected" in the wild then "dumped" after they lay the clutch. The eggs are then hatched and sold.

If I went into great detail about the process here, you would cry.

The fates of the mothers are grim at best.

[infernalis]

Kim I think you have been lied to, A true wild caught monitor would be so mean spirited, and would shred you up for trying to handle it.

Try and put it in this context, his freedom has just been taken away from him, he will resent that for life.

as for the toe nails, get used to scratched up arms, Our Chomper is one of the tamest lizards I have ever experienced, and I almost always look like I have been playing with a rabid cat. He means no harm, but talons are sharp, the animal is heavy, and he is only trying to hold on.

This is a long term commitment too, with proper care he would live many years.

We use two 150 watt halogen lamps side by side for Chompers basking spot, It almost seems like you could bake a cake on his rock. (To avoid confusion here, I placed a large shale creek stone just under the lamps, the radiant energy from the lamps heat that shale stone up really well)

[crocdoc]

good link for care advice:

The Savannah Monitor, Varanus Exanthematicus (http://www.savannahmonitor.net/)

[inca]

Sorry to contradict, 99 percent of all "CB" savs are eggs stolen from nests in the wild, or gravid females "collected" in the wild then "dumped" after they lay the clutch. The eggs are then hatched and sold.

If I went into great detail about the process here, you would cry.

The fates of the mothers are grim at best.

I agree, often captive farmed is just a way of dressing up this sort of practise.
Not good, not good at all.

[infernalis]

good link for care advice:

The Savannah Monitor, Varanus Exanthematicus (http://www.savannahmonitor.net/)


I just went there, This site is an awesome resource, too bad I only now just heard of it, I will certainly spread the gospel they share here.

It opens right up with the grim picture I started painting a few posts ago.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unlike any snake, Monitor lizards are at the very top of the reptile evolutionary scale, They are of a superior intelligence to snakes, I have seen that first hand.

No one can successfully "train" a snake to voice commands, snakes will never pick up their food dish and bang it against the side of the cage for your attention, and many other behaviors that indicate superior brain power to snakes.

[Will0W783]

I did not "impulse buy" the scorpions. I had been planning on getting them for some time and was working out when I could meet the man to pick them up. I love savannah monitors and was hoping to get one someday, and when I saw these guys and I have a good cage for him and all, I decided to get him. Believe me, Aaron I can take care of him. I just wanted to make sure I was doing everything properly since I have found contradictory information online. I was just looking for information from people who have savs and how they care for theirs. I understand it's a major commitment- I am committed to all my pets. I intend to care for them as long as they live.
Infernalis has given me a lot of good information, and I am taking the monitor to my vet for a thorough check-up and am deworming him.

[infernalis]

Awe Kim I am blushing right now, you charmer....

[Will0W783]

Well you have. He is awfully calm for a WC- I kind of think he was captive hatched at least. He squirms but has not hissed, or thrashed his tail, or tried to bite at all. I know they're very smart lizards, and I hope I can have a good relationship with him and that he will quickly learn I mean no harm.

[siz]

Some of your information is off...including temps and food etc, but I think that website covers most of those things as far as I can tell.
I'm at work so I don't have much time to write a big post out but our sav loves digging around, we have a several inches of outside dirt/sand/and a soil mix I bought (forget the contents ATM) and he's just a little fella. Temps, they can definitley handle higher than 110, in fact I believe that website says 130f. We feed ours a wide variety of mainly insects; roaches, crickets, worms, among other things, and not too many rodents as they are very fatty. I am not a believer of dog food as part of the diet.

[infernalis]

That's one of the problems with Savannah care, there is so much conflicting information around, it's not even funny. (actually very sad)

130 degrees is correct Per Frank Retes of Goanna Ranch, however he told me mice are good staple items, I also have a dubia colony so Chomper gets to chase roaches around.

Pinkie mice are bad, they are fatty, but juvinile and young adult mice are not nearly as fatty as a pink.

Frank is the master of monitor care, just VERY lacking in people skills, he comes across as condescending and mean, but if you can get past that, the information is sound.

He said you could feed them nails as long as you keep the enclosure good and hot. (i know he was kidding about the nails) in the wild, they eat some nasty stuff at times.

I never fed him an egg yet, and he only gets to have a tiny packet of turkey dog food as a RARE treat. I also feed him lean venison (served raw) he loves that, and where I live it's free food.

http://www.reptard.info/pic/deerchomp.jpg

[emseeKAY]

i love savs they look so awesome, definitely my favorite monitor species! great picture btw wayne, looks like Chomper is getting big lol

[infernalis]

Chomper is three now, he's a happy healthy lizard.

We just had him out about an hour ago, took some pics will upload soon.

I have some baby pics too for comparison.

[siz]

Aw, haha, I love that photo. They are super cute as babies, I'll try and dig out some of Lector's younger pictuers as well.
There is way too much conflicting info, and I find most of what I read before getting my sav was quite old...alot of dog food recommendations lol.
Ours goes crazy over dubia! He digs egg too, but he wasn't as interested in venison as we thought he would be.
Have you ever cooked any meat or egg you have given Chomper?

[Will0W783]

I am dying to try raw meat and boiled egg with Sarge (Sargeant Savvy is what I named him). I can't get venison here, but I thought hormone-free beef cut into little bits would be nice for him, as a treat. I have a dubia colony I will be feeding with him, along with the crickets and occasional hopper/small adult mouse. He is large enough to handle a small mouse easily but I do want him to have mostly crickets.

[Will0W783]

Well crickets and roaches.

[infernalis]

Have you ever cooked any meat or egg you have given Chomper?


Never, their digestive system is set up for raw meat and insects.

He is a garbage can eater though, if it moves, he will eat it, if it don't move but it smells, he will eat it.

During the summer when we take him out in our yard, every single life form that crosses his path, he eats it.

I breed 8 colonies of mice, 2 colonies of rats, and he has been eating rodent fairly regular for most of his life, and I have seen no adverse issues from it.

Crickets are a waste of time, too small to make a difference, and I am not going to run to the pet store every other day to buy 2 dozen tiny bugs that don't make any difference.

Those dubia get big enough that a dozen or so of them supplemented by meat is enough.

Mice and rats have skeletons, so he gets his calcium from them.

[siz]

OK, Just wondering, I've definitely heard of people doing it. We've never fed anything cooked, except boiled egg. At the size our guy is right now, crickets are alright but you have to feed so many, lol. The one thing I do like about crickets is that you can gut load them with tons of goodies, haha, but otherwise I HATE the things. We sometimes get boxes of 1000 because we also have dragons and geckos and a chameleon, but the roaches really are superior.
Do you feed mice more often, or rats? Live? FT? From my understanding, mice are slightly more fatty than rats. Just curious, since you say you have never seen any adverse effects. Chomper doesn't look overweight at all from what I can see in that photo.
Does anyone have that link to the feeder nutrition webpage? It was on my old computer which has crashed...I don't remember what it was called, unfortunately..

[infernalis]

I breed many mice and rats, a lot of times I dump a bunch of live ones in there, Chompie loves to chase them down, and (at the risk of being gross) he is very effective killing them fast, I hear skulls pop like walnuts in there.

I buy more frozen rodents from rodent pro than I can count, so he gets both F/T and live.

Lately my focus has been to breed really fancy patterns on my mice, then I sell them to a local pet store, use the money to get supplies and frozen rodents.

Occasionally I need population control with the mice, so I feed them off to Chomper.

[Will0W783]

Chomper is sooo cute. I hope mine gets as friendly as he is. Sarge is calming down a lot. I had him out last night to weigh him and measure out his dewormer and he was pretty cool about it. He just looked at me like he was sizing me up. I hope he decides he likes me..lol.

[emseeKAY]

wow these things probably eat a more diverse diet than i do hahaha

[Will0W783]

Haha. Sarge ate two f/t rat pups last night. He seemed very happy.

[allergenic]

Haha. Sarge ate two f/t rat pups last night. He seemed very happy.

I'm very, very happy when I eat big greasy turkey legs and deep fried Twinkies at the Texas State Fair. It doesn't by a long shot mean either of those are good for me.

[Will0W783]

Actually rat pups are good for him. Sarge is rather underweight, and rat pups are less fatty than pinkies. He gets a good varied diet of crickets, roaches, and f/t rodents. Right now I'm mostly concerned with getting him up to a proper weight and giving him food loaded with calcium and other vitamins (which the rodents are). I will try to get some pictures of him and his enclosure up tonight when I get home.

[infernalis]

You tell 'em Kim.

I researched for a year prior to getting Chomper, and listened carefully to Frank Retes (a monitor expert by all means).

Here is an excerpt from the discussions we had.

A diet made up of whole prey items (including but not limited to mice and rats) is the way to go with animals the size of monitors. Smaller species such as dwarf monitors are going to require a more insect-based diet, but larger species such as savannahs, blackthroats, etc, do far better on a rodent based diet.

Chomper has been eating mice and rats for years, He is a happy healthy Sav.

He gets lots of Dubia roaches also.

[Will0W783]

Lol. Well, he needs to put on weight and he sure looks perkier now that he has had a good meal in his tummy. I don't intend to be giving him only rats, or rats every single day, but he does need them at least once a week, and I wanted him to get the good dose of calcium from their bones. I really appreciate all the advice and help you're giving me, Wayne! :)

[infernalis]

You are very welcome Kim.

did you see the additional info I edited into the post while you were reading it??

[infernalis]

Another important excerpt....

Try and fight it, but the more you learn about monitors and rodents, the more the whole prey item thing makes sense. The most successful monitor keepers and breeders in the world feed a rodent-based diet for a reason!

more....

These animals aren't in the wild. We are trying to keep them successfully, not necessarily mimic natural conditions (truly natural conditions also include a multitude of parasites and animals that are considerably lighter weight than their captive counterparts). Yes, the wild animals eat a varied diet including birds, other lizards, and large quantities of invertebrates...but that's all they can get and those are all whole prey items that include all of the inner guts and gore.

[allergenic]

I researched for a year prior to getting Chomper, and listened carefully to Frank Retes (a monitor expert by all means).

The only thing Retes is an expert in is mindlessly railing against the people who are actually out doing field research in how monitors behave, eat, reproduce, and live in the wild. He is unwelcome on any message board containing anything from breeders to published authors, and for good reasons having nothing to do with his bedside manner. The fact that you are choosing his name to drop instead of any others, it simply makes you look foolish rather than credible.

Regarding the rodents, there was a recent thread on a non-Retes message board showing necropsy photos of a Sav with enormous fat deposits from a diet that included a fair amount of animal fat.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4335484302_ba13e5202c.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4335484426_2d87c3fe82.jpg

These photos should be self-explanatory. To be brief, the OP has what sounds like a sick and slightly emaciated monitor. Treating for parasites is a good first step. But to simply continue with poor housing conditions, improper substrate, improper diet (all of which were mentioned in the first post), and throwing some rodents at it to "fatten it up", the outlook is not positive.

[infernalis]

Amazing, I thank you for putting some REAL data out here.

I am certainly re-thinking how I care for my Lizard for sure.

My sweetie is in love with Chomper, and if he died before his time, it would break her heart, And I cannot have that on my conscience.

I am sincerely glad you posted this shocking set of pictures.

Kim I hope you are reading this.... I don't give in very often, but one cannot argue with photographic proof. (well except a stubborn fool, and I would rather be proven wrong than proven an idiot)

[emseeKAY]

wow those are incredibly large! so is that from eating rodents as a staple food item? husbandry for these guys always seems to leave me a little rattled and seriously considering whether or not getting one in the future is worth it :| i know they take a lot of work, considerably more than many other reptile diets but wow, did not realize that their diets can cause that much trauma!

[infernalis]

There is way too much he said - she said - I read concerning this animals care, That is hard to deny when someone puts it right up in your face like that.

Thank god we give chomper lean strips of deer meat, roaches and provide lots of exercise for him.

Now I have to apologize to someone.....

[emseeKAY]

well like you said better to be proven wrong than proven an idiot, and hey, at least you can admit youre wrong, and we all learn someway or another lol better this than a dead or sick animal

[infernalis]

Back in 2006 when I was in contact with Frank, he was still revered as a monitor god on Kingsnake, albeit one who had zero people skills.

I just checked, and he has not posted anything there in a VERY long time, and his web sites are gone.

So I have to assume his credibility went right down the toilet.

[Will0W783]

Wow, that's quite a convincing post! My sav is now in a proper enclosure, which I corrected as per what I read and have learned from people on here. He is in a 5'x3' custom enclosure with plexi lid with just enough screen to fit the basking lamps. His basking area is getting 110-115 degrees and his cool end in the high 80s (87 last I checked a few hours ago). He has a mixture of jungle bed soil and repti-sand substrate which is deep to allow him to burrow. I have given him several hides, a few things to climb on, and a large water bowl. He's been eating crickets, roaches, and rat pups. I will slow down on the rodents and feed more insects. He is being dewormed and is perking up and looking more active. I want to care for him well and have a long and happy relationship with him. He's such a neat little lizard, and I will be the first to admit my experience lies more with snakes. But I'm trying and learning as much as I can.

[Will0W783]

Here are some pictures of Sarge and his cage. I lifted the hide off him to take the pictures, so he was a bit less than thrilled..lol.

[Aaron_S]

Kimberly,

I would suggest deeper substrate. From the looks of the first picture, and it isn't a great one, it doesn't look too deep. He may be able to burrow an inch or two but he should be able to dig himself a burrow. I'm talking 6 inch deep substrate at the least.

[Will0W783]

I know. I intend to get more tomorrow. I got all that the store had. I can't go anywhere today as I'm under 2.5 feet of snow. I'm sorry about the quality of the pics- all I had was the camera on my phone. It's about 3 inches deep but I'm trying to get it around a foot deep when I'm done.

[allergenic]

Back in 2006 when I was in contact with Frank, he was still revered as a monitor god on Kingsnake, albeit one who had zero people skills.

I just checked, and he has not posted anything there in a VERY long time, and his web sites are gone.

He hosts a forum now at Varanus.net, and deletes any posts that contradict what he says (just as he did on Kingsnake back then).

wow those are incredibly large! so is that from eating rodents as a staple food item? .... but wow, did not realize that their diets can cause that much trauma!

Unfortunately the poster in the thread these photos were in did not give enough information about his husbandry methods to conclusively say it was solely the diet. I'm sure there were other contributing factors, as there usually are. But yes, diet is a "biggie".

Kim -

I would suggest you read through the link crocdoc gave earlier in this thread (savannahmonitor.org). As well, pick up a book called "The Savannah Monitor Lizard - The truth about Varanus Exanthematicus" by Daniel Bennett. It's for sale here:

Mampam Conservation/Viper Press - The Savannah Monitor Lizard (Powered by CubeCart) (http://www.mampamconservation.com/mampamstore/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=21)

The enclosure the monitor is in could use a lot of work, from the looks of things there is a square area on top cut into the plexi, the lights do not take up the whole space so you have exposed areas of screen. You're going to be losing all your humidity through those areas of screen. For the time being you may want to put some tin foil around the lights covering the screen, to at least create a better seal.

Aaron is correct also that you are going to need much deeper substrate, if you do a foot of soil in that aquarium you will raise the monitor up high enough that you will be able to use a 45 watt indoor flood light from a home improvement store in the fixture, which is recommended. Having the monitor somewhat close to the bulb and using a lower wattage bulb will stop killing the humidity and also prevent spot burns from what looks to be a pet store basking bulb you are using. The basking surface of the soil will then be better measured with an infrared temp gun, rather than trying to rely on the thermometers you have stuck to the glass.

Providing a good depth of soil, keeping the enclosure humid, and covering the exposed screen to keep humidity in, will all help for starters in giving a proper environment.

Also, at savannahmonitor.org/feeding is a bunch of upgraded food and feeding information. It could use a look-through.

What I've mentioned is pretty standard now. To add my personal opinion (which you can agree with or disagree with), glass on four sides makes the monitor feel insecure, if you could cover three sides of it and add a lot more hides or brush, that might help reduce stress also.

Hope that helps, have fun and good luck with the snow.
Bill

[Will0W783]

Thanks Bill. The stick-on thermometer came with the tank. I have a digital temp gun I use to measure temps as I don't trust those stick-ons at all. I am getting more soil tomorrow for him and I'm going to try to cover up the areas around the lamps like you suggested. I really appreciate it. I did read the link from earlier in the thread and will get the book you suggested.

[infernalis]

You are an asset to our hobby Bill!
(passion is a better word, "hobby" makes me think of collecting baseball cards)

[Geckogal]

I been trying to breed with snails for my sav i like giving my animals a variety of food, they all wc snails, they eat drink and seem to be happy in their new home but after their detox time they die, im keeping their enclosure moist anybody know anything about snails?

[infernalis]

Someone is reading this thread as a guest, and I felt the need to ressurect it, and bring to light updates in husbandry that have been discussed since.

[infernalis]

I also updated the links, since sav.org is now gone.

[Pirarucu]

Speaking of, do you know who owned Sav.org? I want to say the first name was Bill or Will if I remember right.. Anyways, to my point. Have you attempted to contact the previous owner or in any way track down the contents of that site? It had quite a bit of excellent information in it, and the author worded it all quite well. The only part that wasn't necessarily 100% accurate was the parts where it was said that rodents were the sole cause of obesity. But the rest of it was great, and there were some good pictures of various ways to construct a suitable cage.