what all does yours eat

[JdmAllMotorHatc]

well? besides crickets

[Tigergenesis]

I feed my crested the diet in Robbie Hamper's book. A recipe with fruit flavored baby food and meat flavored baby food (I avoid added sugars, preservatives, coloring, flavoring, citrus, etc). He seems to prefer it over crickets so I've reduced how often he eats crickets (fine by me as I hate dealing with them). He occasionally gets worms (silkworms, waxworms, butterworms) and seems to like them better than crickect. Sometimes I also puree some fresh fruits in the blender and give him that. Of course I give him supplements and he has a UV light.

[labomb]

baby food usually mixed with CGD. no citric fruits. my young cresteds love crickets, the adults seem lazy and rather the baby food, they don't eat as many crickets as when they were younger. calcium and vitamin supplements are a must, they WILL get MBD if not getting enough calcium.

[CDN-Cresties]

CGD, crix, silkworms adn hopefully lobster roaches if I can find some.

[babysweet]

Baby food, no additives, mostly peach, apricot and bannana (although I've also tried apple/blueberry - they hated it). Usually mixed 50/50 with CGD. Oh, and crickets. TONS of crickets. They love them.

Vitamin and Cal. supps on everything.

[Tigergenesis]

You have to be careful mixing CGD with anything other than water as suggested. It is a complete product in itself and mixing with baby food can interfer with the nutritional balance.

[babysweet]

I've made this assertion before, and should probably let sleeping dogs lie, but I don't buy the idea that *any* product is "100% nutritionally balanced" and so I choose to mix my CGD with babyfood and a bit of water, and then add an appropriate amount of supplements to the mix to make up for the babyfood additive.

I will note that this is a personal decision and I in no way adovate the use of this feeding method to others. I am not a reptile nutritionist, nor am I an expert in any sense of the word.

THAT SAID, it is impossible to create a 100% nutritionally balanced diet, period. It's simply not possible. It's a farce. It's a marketing ploy. It's a nice and easy way to feed... but it's not perfect.

I will also note that I am in no way suggesting that the way that I feed my cresties is any more or less correct than the formulation of CGD. I just have an issue with the phrase "100% nutritionally complete and balanced" and I find the idea that in order to feed our pets correctly we must do so using bottled, bagged and processed food... well... silly.

Also, my intention here is to simply apply another perspective, so if you disagree with me, I have "100% complete and balanced" respect for your decision to do so. ;)

[Betty Miskie]

I actually feed mine crickets one day, homemade babyfood mixture (mango, pear, banana and yogurt) the next day, crickets the next and keep up with that rotation. I have just started to add dry cgd in a dish and leave it in their enclosure for them to chose what they want to eat. I make sure I leave fresh water as well.
Betty

[CDN-Cresties]

Its a nice and easy way that is SUCCESSFUL. There's no need to overkill it by mixing it with babyfood and extra supplements. I just really dont see the point? :S

[babysweet]

CDN Cresties, I'm starting to think you own stock in the CGD manufacturer... ;) j/k

Firstly, I'd like to point out that successful is a pretty loose term, and you'd need to define how you measure "success" before I can respond to that statement. For example, in order for a commercial dog food to be considered "successful" it must pass AAFCO (Association of Amercian Feed Control Officials) feeding trials.

Just what does this entail? Feeding eight dogs the subject food for six months. At the end of that six months, the dogs in question must not have lost more than 15% of their total body weight, four blood values are checked to make sure that they have not fallen below minimum, and 6 of the eight dogs must still be in the trial.

So, according to AAFCO, a trial that ends with two dead dogs, six dogs with a 10% weight loss, and moderately high/low blood values is a success.

Huh?

It's also been shown that you can construct a dog food that meets AAFCO's nutrient requirements by combining shoe leather, motor oil, and an array of vitamins and minerals.

Now obviously I'm not suggesting that Rapashy's diet is in this bottom league, but it is my firm belief that you can not feed any animal a 100% processed diet and expect it to thrive. It may live, it may reproduce, it may have an acceptable level of health and/or lack of illness... but will it thrive? No.

The fact is that a processed diet can NOT contain the vital amino acids, EFAs and digestive enzymes that real food does. Sure, you can add artificial/processed versions into the mix during packaging, but as soon as the bag/bottle is opened they take in air and begin to break down.

On top of all this, what about all the components of food that we're not aware of? Taurine was only discovered after hundreds of cats suffered eye/heart problems after a life of commercial cat food that wasn't fortified with this essential amino acid. How many more are not contained within processed foods... because we don't even know they exist, let alone that they're required?

Supplementation is neccessary for a lot of things. I supplement now with a multivitamin/calcium/D3 additive. But that doesn't mean that I think the entire diet should be processed. When was the last time your doctor told you to take more multivitamins... but don't eat fresh fruit, because it will throw off the delicate nutritional balance.

I just think that we're sacrificing quality for ease of use. I don't feed us out of a bag, and I don't feed my pets out of a bag. Granted, I keep a bit of commercial food for everyone in the house just in case we run out of something, or I had to work late and we're short on time... etc., etc. But the entire world is being consumed by "fast and easy" instead of focusing on what's important.

You can call the diet "successful" if you want, but I don't think that success alone makes it the best choice. I know people who feed vegan cat food, knowing that cats are obligate carnivores. The cats are alive, yes... but would I do it? Not for all the money in the world.

Kevin Dunne has a whole colony of cresties he feeds on dusted crickets, and nothing else. He's said he's seen no notable differences between the success of this colony, and the one fed CGD/babyfood. Does this make it successful? Well, as the second largest producer of cresties in NA, I think it would be pretty damn foolish of me to suggest otherwise. Would I do it? Hell no. Neither would you, judging by your affinity towards CGD.

The POINT of my rambling is simply this: I don't care what the nutritional break down of the food is. I don't care about all the anecdotal evidence that so far says it's "successful". It is MY opinion that you can NOT feed ANY animal a 100% processed diet, and expect it to be as healthy as it COULD BE.

Want one more example? Take baby formula. Milk replacement powder. Have you noticed lately that the medical establishment as a whole is pushing more and more women to breastfeed their children? Because a few decades after "convenience" baby food came out, even with it's tag of "100% complete nutrition", it's been proven that breast milk is better.

Nature knows best.

Respectfully,

Kim

P.S. I don't consider going out of my way to make sure I eat a salad today "overkill", and I certainly feel the same way about putting in the extra work to make sure that ALL my pets have a nutritional, properly balanced, natural, species-appropriate diet.

[CDN-Cresties]

I actually own stocks in gerber:p

The measure of success used was hatch rates. I mentioned that in a previous thread, I should have mentioned it in this one.

Yeah your right, they wont thrive??? :rolleyes: Look at Allen's collection. You dont maintain such a large collection on crap.

My problem is that you bash the diet without testing it yourself. Also, it seems you indirectly bash those who use the diet as well. Implying that they are not taking proper care of their pets. Here is an example of what I am talking about.

I find the idea that in order to feed our pets correctly we must do so using bottled, bagged and processed food... well... silly.

So I guess those who use CDG are silly....? No one is forcing anyone to use CGD, they are simply passing along info. I have never told anyone nor have seen anyone say on a forum, your diet sucks, use CGD instead.

I trust that Allen isn't BSing anyone when he states that he has had more successful hate rates with CDG rather than a babyfood mix because afterall, it is his name and rep on the line.

Like I have stated earlier many different diets work. CGD is obviously a convience but I dont think that should take anything away from the product. Feed your cresties how ever you see best but dont bash something without testing it yourself.

:zi:

[babysweet]

Gerber... lol. :p

The measure of success used was hatch rates. I mentioned that in a previous thread, I should have mentioned it in this one.

Ok, but who tested it? Hmmm... the maker of the diet, you say? Well, I'm not questioning Rapashy's honesty, or integrity, but I think it would be careless to assume an educated opinion based on the makers assertions. Also, there is a good point to be made here that maybe cresties shouldn't have such a high hatch rate. The food that KFC feeds its chickens provides them with mutant-sized breasts, making them top heavy enough disable their mobility. Yeah for the chicken-breast eating public... boo for the chicken. (not comparing Rapashy's diet to steroid enhanced chicken feed... lol... just making a point that bigger is not always better!)

Yeah your right, they wont thrive??? Look at Allen's collection. You dont maintain such a large collection on crap.

You'll find about 5,000 dog breeders in Canada producing hundreds of thousands of puppies for agility, obedience, and the show ring... who are fed Pedigree, Dog Chow and Ol' Roy. Are these dogs maintained? Yep, absolutely. Are they thriving? Nope. The problem is, most people don't realize it. You have to take a Pedigree-fed dog and put him next to a dog fed a balanced diet of REAL food before you realize that his coat doesn't glow like it could, his eyes don't sparkle, he's lacking that spring in his step, his toenails are more brittle, his teeth not so white... Take me for example. I'm not overweight, I eat ok, I dont' really exercise... I'm alive, and I'm healthy. Can I compare my state of health to my aunt who eats only organic foods and runs marathons? No way, next to her I look like an out-of-shape fast food junkie. lol

My problem is that you bash the diet without testing it yourself. Also, it seems you indirectly bash those who use the diet as well. Implying that they are not taking proper care of their pets. Here is an example of what I am talking about.

I find the idea that in order to feed our pets correctly we must do so using bottled, bagged and processed food... well... silly.

So I guess those who use CDG are silly....? No one is forcing anyone to use CGD, they are simply passing along info. I have never told anyone nor have seen anyone say on a forum, your diet sucks, use CGD instead.

You've taken what I said out of context. It's my fault, I should have explained that more thoroughly (sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain... ;) )

I wasn't saying that feeding CGD is silly, and I wasn't trying to insult those of you who do. I don't agree with it, but I'm not trying to "bash" it. What I'm saying is that it's silly to argue that as hobby herpers we're incapable of providing an appropriate diet consisting of FRESH foods. Commercial pet foods on the market today are sold under the idea that by NOT feeding them you're doing your pets a disservice, and I just DON'T agree with that.

Let me clear something up here that I think is getting confused. It's not the diet itself that's at issue. It's not Rapashy's abilities, or his integrity, it's not the ingredients, it's not the formulation. It's the fact that it's processed.

What started my little (ok, BIG... lol) rant was the suggestion that adding real food to CGD was breaking the rules and that it would upset the "100% nutritionally balanced" diet so carefully prepared and packaged.

While I don't think that you can just add whatever you want and it will all even out in the end (read: babyfood must be supplemented!! It is not a complete meal!!) I think that there is something to be said for providing fresh foods on a regular basis.

I really am sorry that you feel that I'm "bashing" CGD. I'm not... hell, I feed it myself! But it's been proven time and time again in hundreds of species, that fresh foods are a necessity for optimum health. That's why zoos no longer feed their big cats Whiskas. They feed them a species appropriate diet of raw meat, organs, bones, and supplements.

I personally love the idea of CGD, and I keep it on hand at all times. I usually mix a bit in with my babyfood mix (sometimes I do, sometimes I don't) and some days I use it on it's own, if I realize the kricket keeper is empty and there's no more babyfood in the fridge.

But after seeing what a 100% processed diet has done to so many other species, I PERSONALLY will not feed CGD and only CGD.

Let me also note here that you don't feed only CGD either. You add crickets (dusted, I assume) as their "fresh food" portion. I just take it one step further. I'll also admit that as soon as I am comfortable enough with my knowledge of reptile nutrition, I will phase out the CGD, and go to a diet more along the lines of Hilde's.

I think a happy medium would be a frozen CGD diet (a pre-mix of babyfood and supps) or a powdered supplement that is added to fresh pureed fruit or babyfood.

Again, I'm sorry, CDN Cresties, that you've taken my opinions personally. My intention was never to offend.

[DragnDrop]

I agree with Kim that no artificial diet can be 100% complete, at least not with our current knowledge of (insert species name here, any species, not just herps) nutritional needs and our technology to analyse the chemical combinations in the food we eat.
Artificial diets contain only the ingredients added to the batch. What if the species needs a different ingredient (like taurine in cats as was mentioned)? They'll probably live a while or even close to a natural life span, but did the mother have enough reserve to pass some on to her offspring via the egg or placenta etc.? She may well have reproduced and reproduced healthy looking offspring, but sooner or later that missing ingredient will have an effect.

A commonly accepted practise is to dust feeders and non-insect food with supplements. Great - a lot of species thrive with that kind of diet, but some didn't. Chameleons lived a very short time, many developed edema or died mysteriously, though they were well supplemented with commercial vitamins and minerals. Then it became apparent that chams are very susceptible to overdoses of vitamins and minerals. But how could that be? The container said 'complete' mix of vitamins and minerals for every herp. Other species didn't have that problem, just chams. So, is that commercial brand of vitamins and/or minerals complete and balanced, or not? Which species do you judge it by? Bet the chams didn't have that problem using Mother Nature's Natural Mix in the wild.

Maybe Rhacs can live on the artificial diet, maybe it is complete enough to be used exclusively, but I also believe that there's got to be something missing. Has anyone ever analysed EVERYTHING that wild Rhacs eat? Is there a list of ingredients -vitamins, minerals, amino acids and all those other goodies? In any given season, you can expect them to find a certain food in overabundance, yet in another season that food source is gone. If the analysts came along while that food source was gone, they wouldn't have it on their list, yet it's a source of nutrients for the geckos. They could in effect get enough of the nutrients to store and live off until the next time that food source comes around. An example is seasonal fruit and insects. Unless the geckos were studied year-around, there's no way their entire food intake would have been studied (and don't forget, they eat at night, so it's hard to watch what they eat, while stomach contents and fecal analysis is not completely reliable).

I'll use a variety of food - fruit and insects. Even the fruit mix recipe I use changes from one batch to the other - fruit varies from season to season. There's bound to be some variation of nutrients in the different fruits, chances are that what's missing in one will be supplied by the other. The supplements I add are just 'insurance'.

There's no way I'm implying that the CGD etc. are useless. There's food value in them, and they've been tested and proven to be nutritious enough to allow the animals to live and breed. What I'm saying it I don't believe they're complete enough to be used alone, no other food need be offered. I'm saying there's more chance that something is missing in them than the chance that they're 100% complete. Who knows how many generations it will take before we clue in that there's something missing? I might not worry too much about being a fast food junkie, eating empty calories and the like, and I sure love my chocolate and cookies, but that's my choice. My geckos have no choice but to eat what I put on their plates. They can't go out and get their own food. They're stuck with what they get. The least I can do is make sure they get a chance to eat a variety of foods so they have a better chance at getting what might be missing in one suposedly 'complete' diet - be it natural, organic, artificial, man-made or beamed in by aliens.




The measure of success used was hatch rates. I mentioned that in a previous thread, I should have mentioned it in this one.



That measure of success is useless. Look at the 'hatch rate' in puppy mills. Those dogs manage to 'hatch out' many offspring, does that mean they're being properly fed?

[CDN-Cresties]

I don't have much time until tomorrow night. Damn exam worth 50 percent of my mark but here is a thread that goes along the lines of what my position is. Pretty much it is how I came to use CGD. Its a long thread but entertaining.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=651944,651944&key=2004

[babysweet]

I know exactly what you're going through with the exams... hubby is taking his computer networking exams this week. I don't think I've seen him sleep in about 12 days. :( You have my sympathies!

As for AC's post on Kingsnake... well, three things.

1.) Again with the conflict of Interest. Does AC Reptiles not take care of all of Rapashy's cresty sales? 'nuff said.

2.) His argument regarding feeding crickets and babyfood as being just as "unnatural" as CGD... come on, now... A fruit is a fruit is a fruit. Sure, they're different fruits, with different composition, and different pros and cons... but they're still live fruit, as part of a varied diet. You simply can not say that Apple Vs. Orange is the same as Peach Vs. powdered whey mix. I realize that we can't mimic the wild cresty diet exactly, but the fact is that I'm going to come closer by varying the foods in the diet than by limiting myself to one food item.

3.) "Crested Gecko Diet is not a good, complete diet." You see, what I'm trying to get across here is that while there is such a thing as a good, complete diet, there is no such thing as a good, complete FOOD. CGD is not a diet, it is a food. A diet, by it's very description, is varied.

One more note (yeah, yeah, I know I said three.. ;) ). AC even says right in the post that two of his criteria for choosing a diet for his cresties are colour and growth rate. Colour and growth rate? Sorry, I want health and longevity. I fear the day when someone refers to me as a "Breeder" before all else. These guys are my pets. Simple as that. Yep, I'm going to breed them. But I can't imagine getting so caught up in the potential income that I would forget what should always come first... the well being of the creature in your care.

Ok, I gotta split (going home after a hard day's work... :P)

I'm sure we'll discuss this further...

Kim

Final note: I can assure you all that the colour of my future cresties will be due to their impeccable breeding and care, NOT due to the pigments I put in their dish at night.

[DragnDrop]

First, let me say that I have a lot of respect for Allen and Anthony, but that does not mean I have to agree with them all the time.

Now about that info you wanted us to read...

Did you note the part where he says he feeds live prey including roaches (mentioned in one of his follow-up posts) to his geckos because he likes to have them grow faster? And the part about the CGD being adequate for the average pet?

So this is a complete balanced diet suitable for being the sole food? Why do they grow faster when fed bugs then? Hey, I have an idea.... I'm going to produce a super duper complete balanced diet that you can feed your children, nothing else need be added except drinking water, the only problem is that they'll grow slower than their friends who are eating something else along with this diet..
HUH? Would you go along with that? Wouldn't you wonder just WHY they're going to grow slower than the others? Granted, growing too fast has it's own problems, can be detrimental, but growing slower than the accepted norm isn't quite something to write home about, is it?

He admits he feeds live prey in addition to CGD. So, he's not feeding ONLY CGD, his geckos are getting other food. Also note, he says 'for the average pet owner' it's good enough to use only CGD. I would be inclined to think that the average pet isn't called on to breed on a regular basis. Pets are pets, breeders are breeders, average pets are just that --- pets, part of the family in many cases, spoiled rotten in a lot of cases too, but still only pets, not breeders.

As a Rhac owner who not only allows them to breed but pretty well expects them to breed, I feel it's much better for them to have a variety of food. If they don't want to eat a certain food, great, it's their choice, I won't argue. However, there's no way I'm going to say they can't have this or that, but they'd better produce offspring for me anyways and that's that, now hurry up, go lay me some eggs.

I'm still trying to find the part that says mixing CGD et al. with other foods destroys the nutritional balance. Maybe I just missed it.

[CDN-Cresties]

Once again im short on time so I cant respond to a large majority of your threads but that part of throwing of the nutrional balance is located in the kingsnake rhac forum. I believe it was in 2005 and Neoscales mentions it. I promise I will respond in detail to your responses.

[CDN-Cresties]

Here is the thread.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=703539,703659

[StickyToes]

We also feed ours a variety of foods including gutloaded and dusted crickets, various fruit mixes, and GGD. A few of them will also occasionally take various types of worms (usually the girls :) ). The key to good health in all the various species of geckos that I have kept over the years has been variety, and I fully agree with what both Hilde and Kim are saying in their posts on this matter.

I use the MRPs as a supplement to an already diverse diet, but I would never even think about changing what I have been doing for the past 6 years in regards to constantly diversifying my cresteds diet. The idea that babyfood takes away from the nutritional content of the food is absurd unless you are strictly feeding the diet and babyfood mix, but even then if you were to add one part CGD to 2 parts babyfood you would still have the same amount of CGD irregardless of whether or not you used H2O. Yes there could be extra sugars that could potentially lead the geckos to store them as fat, and overtime this could lead to obese geckos that would have very little breeding success, but once again you would be pretty hard pressed to find any breeder that follows this method exclusively. It still doesn't alter the fact that the content of the food mix is still one part CGD plus all the extras that may be in the fruit that definitely won't be in the water. As Hilde has pointed out already, even Repashy and AC don't feed the diets exclusively.

Steve - Do you have a link that you could post that would direct us to Allen's hatch rates. I have the April 98 article where he gives the averages for 5 females and their hatch success rates for 96, 3 of which were on his mix of fruit babyfood and meat mixed with a few other ingredients, and I would like to compare then and now. I think it could go a long way to speak volumes about changes in success with just a powdered diet.

After reading through the posts about this on the other forum I have to say that I was surprised at the level of arrogance that was displayed on several issues by one person in particular.
Coming from a fitness & nutrition background, I have to chuckle when I hear people say that because it just demonstrates how ignorant (in the true sense of the word) these folks are when it comes to nutrition. CGD has all macronutrients (carbs, fats and proteins) and micronutrients (vitamins, minerals, etc.) covered...Back in the day when I was lifting five days a week, I would've killed for an MRP for humans that had those bases covered. CGD has honey and banana powder (there's our natural fruit/sugars), plenty of fiber, healthy fats, whey protein (the same type that professional bodybuilders use), vitamins (including D3), minerals and calcium...
I'd like to know what he has read that gives him such confidence to say that these ingredients combined in the concentrations that they are in offer a nutritionally balanced and complete diet for R. ciliatus. From all the reading that I have done on the species I have yet to find any real definitive answers as to what their diet actually comprises, and as far as I've been able to find there hasn't been any definitive research on the wild diet of most of the species in the genus besides more of a focus on the diet of leachianus. Until someone gets funding to go out into the field and study this we can only speculate, and to say that other people are ignorant because they may not have a "fitness and nutrition" background is just plain...well...ignorant! :rolleyes:

Geckos go after live insects due to feeding response...not because they need them. It's called an opportunistic feeding response.
Actually...this would fall under the classification of survival! LOL
Although most geckos are "sit and wait" predators, and this could also be considered opportunistic, they are hardwired this way to conserve energy, and they most certainly do need prey if they are to survive in the wild. Granted that they don't range nearly as much as they would in the wild, so they don't burn nearly as many calories in captivity, but the need for sustenance would be the whole point of them being hardwired to hunt in this fashion. Flowering plants generally don't produce fruit year round, so what would make up the rest of their diet during the offseason if they aren't getting calories through fruits and pollens? I don't know about anyone else, but my cresteds don't seem all too interested in crickets during certain times, and I think that they actually do have a natural "switch" that turns off when they don't need those calories anymore. All my males tend to keep crickets as pets during the offseason! ;) When you read further on in this particular section there is a comparison to the feeding response of a obese Burmese Python. It's kinda like comparing apples and radishes, and trying to say they offer the same function to their respective environments!

When I was done reading through all the posts I was left with a bad taste in my mouth at the level of arrogance that that one person in particular displayed toward some very valid points made by other people. By saying "look at my success for the last 6 months" I think that it will ultimately hurt the case of those pushing this diet as this is a ever evolving foray into the natural sciences, and it takes years for any hypothesis to become a workable theory.

I don't think I will change anything I do for my Rhacs. And if anyone wants to send me to New Caledonia to do field work just let me know! I'd be more then happy to figure out exactly what they eat! :D

[little_dragon_]

The way my lifes going right now I'll leave for New Caledonia tomorrow, Lets go!

[DragnDrop]

Hey, take me along, will ya? You make the observations, I'll write them down, that'll justify the expense of me tagging along, okay?

I think what got me the most was his comment that he feeds other foods to his geckos, yet the average everyday common pet gecko can survive on just that artificial diet. .. ... why should his rate better than the others? ;)

[Betty Miskie]

I am really enjoying this thread as I am relatively new to cresties and want the best for them. I have always said that I took Hilde's diet (as I was in awe of how healthy hers looked) and am absolutely happy with the outcome of my cresties, young and old. When I first started with babies, I mixed my babyfood with cgd (fed nightly) and found the babies were smaller. When I feed mine every night with the homemade babyfood and then slowly start adding crickets, I have big, healthier looking cresties.
I still offer cgd (dry form in their enclosure) so if they think they need more, it is there for them. I would never go exclusive with cgd as I too feel that the cresties need more than that and I really don't think the "makers" have proven beyond a doubt in my mind that it is the best and the only way to go.
Betty

[clint545]

Very interesting read! I tend to mix my foods up. One night it'll be crickets, the next Babyfood mixed with CGD, Just Babyfood(a recipe actually) or just CGD. Gives a variety!

[little_dragon_]

I could push for a grant from the government and telefilm to make a documentary about geckos in the wild.

[babysweet]

Hmmm... I have seven years experience in behavioural observation... albeit in dogs... I could definitely be useful on your trip. I'm pretty small too... Bet I could fit in a suitcase...

I hear New Caledonia's nice this time of year. ;)

Kim

[babysweet]

Hilde, I'm pretty sure I asked you this once before.. if that's the case, forgive me.

I was hoping you could share your actual recipe with me. I've been adding yogurt, but I've been having a hard time estimating the measurements.

Could you specify how many parts yogurt to babyfood, and any supps you include?

For those of us looking for a "successful" alternative. :)

Kim

[DragnDrop]

You want my Rhac fruit 'n' yogurt recipe? That top secret recipe that so far I've only divulged to
several thousand people?

I posted the recipe in this forum back in the fall, but that's when I still added CGD to the mix
once in a while. I don't bother with that anymore. It was mostly for a change in flavour and any
extra nutrients it might add, but I found that a lot of geckos didn't like it, so there was quite a
bit of it wasted (well, not wasted exactly, but by morning I'd take it out and let my dog, a glutton
of a MinPin, eat it :)

I'm somewhat lazy today, so I'm going to copy/paste what I posted somewhere else in cyberspace
instead of typing it up fresh.

My typical recipe makes roughly 6 ice cube trays, but it can vary depending on the type of tray
you're using. Since I have at least 20 fruit-eating adult Rhacs at any time and who knows how many
babies, it's worth making a big batch at once. You can use less of everything if you don't have a
lot of Rhacs (yet, but you will soon ) and the mix freezes well so don't worry about making too
much. Since the ingredients are also human food grade, you can eat some of it yourself if you don't
add the CGD, it's great slightly frozen, reminds me of a milkshake.

I've used this recipe since I first got Rhacs back in '96. I start with 1 large can (approx. 800 g./
28 oz.) of unsweetened mango pulp (plain mango will do since it all goes into the blender later), 1
small to medium very ripe banana, 1 or 2 soft pears, 3-4 figs, and one or two other fruits
in season. They love peach, mango, pear, banana, dates, figs, grapes and berries - especially
strawberries. Just about any fruit will do, but try not to use citrus fruit. All the fruit is
blended until smooth and then poured into a mixing bowl. I then add low fat or fat-free yogurt,
strawberry, mixed berries or peach. They have no problems digesting the lactose since the bacteria
in the yogurt culture convert it to a safe form for them. A one serving size container of yogurt is
added to the fruit mix and stirred until blended. Pour it all into ice cube trays and freeze.

Each batch is a bit different since I use whatever fruit is in season, so they get different
flavours throughout the year. I try to have 2 different batches going at a time and alternate with
each feeding. To give them a change every once in a while, I add something to the thawed cubes
before feeding. I'll sprinkle some pollen over the top, mix in a different blended fruit from the
other batch in the freezer, maybe add a bit of different yogurt flavour or some finely chopped figs.


Some batches also get a half a jar of CGD added while still in the blender, but that also means
adding a bit of water to keep it at a lickable consistency. Don't add too much CGD or it will be too
thick, and they might not bother eating it if they have to bite and chew it. This is one of my
least favourite variations, mostly because not all of my Rhacs will eat the CGD. I think I've pretty
well eliminated this version in favour of just feeding plain CGD to those who will touch it.

Feedings alternate with crickets/bugs of some kind 2 or sometimes 3 times a week, this fruit mix 2-3
times a week, some don't even bother with bugs much once they get to liking the fruit mix. Mix the
supplement (like Miner-all ) in when feeding if you can, that way you have more control over who
gets how much and when. It can be added before freezing, I just prefer to add it before serving.
Breeding females need more than lone males, babies need more than lone males etc. That's why I add
the Miner-all and vitamins when I feed the mix. Also, not every fruit/yogurt feeding gets
supplements. I skip one here and there, just feed it plain.

For cresties (and other Rhacs) who eat mostly the yogurt/fruit mix and barely touch crickets, I
don't dust the crickets and other bugs. They get their supplements in the fruit. Since they almost
always eat every drop of fruit, I know how much they've gotten. For those who eat bugs as easily as
fruit, I alternate, sometimes I go long stretches of supplements in fruit only, no dusted bugs.
Other times I'll do the dusted bugs, nothing in the fruit. All told, they do get supplements, but
not in and on every food item. The batches of fruit with CGD never had supplements added at all, I
just dusted the bugs when I used them. However, I don't do the mix with CGD anymore, or at least
don't have any intentions to use it since most of my adults didn't like it as much, and the
acceptance rate with all Rhacs in general wasn't as good.

[Asian Jon]

I went out and bought all the ingredients today for your recipe Hilde. I couldn't find the unsweetened mango pulp anywhere, so I just bought very ripe mangos instead.

I blended it all up...half for me, and half for my geckos :D

So far I love it...Mmmmm :flick:
I don't know about the cresties yet...

[labomb]

well by my learning experience raising cresties, I have a year old male that was fed babyfood/cgd, sometimes mixed, sometimes straight, and crickets a couple times a week, supplements added. he has been treated for MBD during this time and although I thought he was growing nicely, I now can compare him to two other cresties that I have had for a few short weeks that were maybe a couple weeks old when I got them. They get crickets several times a week AND babyfood/cgd mix every night. They are growing fast and fat. but is fat healthy? anyways, what we feed them does seem to make a difference. I have a male that is near to 3 yrs old. for his first 18 months his first owner fed him plain yogurt only. he was healthy looking when I got him over a year ago and he is still nice and healthy looking now on babyfood/cgd and crickets a couple times a week although I never hardly see him eat crickets. so what am I trying to say as I ramble on? well that maybe what they get there first weeks of life makes a difference when they are adults. same as people. I am definately an advocate for more protein in their early weeks.

[CDN-Cresties]

Ah where to start???:p I'll just go through the posts in order. Much of what has been said has been overlapped in different posts so if I don’t address it initially, just keep reading. I apologize for not replying sooner but I've been tired/busy/lazy :p

Babysweet:
True, Allen tested the diet himself and I understand your concern about this but IMO someone with Allen's rep and large collection, I can’t see him trying to pull a fast one. After all his animals and his rep would take a massive hit.

What I'm saying is that it's silly to argue that as hobby herpers we're incapable of providing an appropriate diet consisting of FRESH foods. Commercial pet foods on the market today are sold under the idea that by NOT feeding them you're doing your pets a disservice, and I just DON'T agree with that.

I completely agree with you on this. I don’t believe that CGD is a requirement in order to keep cresties healthy. However with that being said, trying to balance a fruit puree diet with supplements can be difficult. This is what makes CGD a valuable option. The suggestion of not mixing BABYFOOD with CGD is a concern dealing with the sugar contents that babyfood contains. To be honest, I have no idea about the balance when you add fresh fruit to the mix. However that being said, I wouldn't personally mix the two together on a particular feeding but I would offer them on different feeding days. I didn't quite get that impression from CGD marketing :confused: Although I can see how some can interpret it like that.

You are correct, I don’t feed exclusively CGD but it does make a large portion of their diet. I do offer insects once in a while with the odd smashed up fruit. If I truly felt that I was jeopardizing the lives/health of my geckos, I wouldn't use this diet.


DragnDrop:

I understand what you are saying about the chances of something missing from the diet are greater than the chance that the diet is complete. However, it seems that Allen is having tremendous success with the diet with his massive colony. This is why I believe the diet works and works well.


That measure of success is useless. Look at the 'hatch rate' in puppy mills. Those dogs manage to 'hatch out' many offspring, does that mean they're being properly fed?

Im not sure why you think its useless :confused: I believe Allen was comparing hatch rates between a diet of fruitmix with supplements and a diet of CGD. With that being said I think it’s a completely useful measure. I asked about hatch rates and CGD on Allen's forum. He was honest and genuine in his post. To check it out click here (http://www.forums.repashy.com/showthread.php?t=39)

Babysweet:

I know exactly what you're going through with the exams... hubby is taking his computer networking exams this week. I don't think I've seen him sleep in about 12 days. You have my sympathies!

Exams suck, Im glad im done for the year:D

1.) Again with the conflict of Interest. Does AC Reptiles not take care of all of Rapashy's cresty sales? 'nuff said.

I think this post was before Anthony made that arrangement but to be honest im not sure.

2.) His argument regarding feeding crickets and babyfood as being just as "unnatural" as CGD... come on, now... A fruit is a fruit is a fruit. Sure, they're different fruits, with different composition, and different pros and cons... but they're still live fruit, as part of a varied diet. You simply can not say that Apple Vs. Orange is the same as Peach Vs. powdered whey mix. I realize that we can't mimic the wild cresty diet exactly, but the fact is that I'm going to come closer by varying the foods in the diet than by limiting myself to one food item.

I don’t agree with this either. I said along the lines of what I think but not exactly. :p


One more note (yeah, yeah, I know I said three.. ). AC even says right in the post that two of his criteria for choosing a diet for his cresties are colour and growth rate. Colour and growth rate? Sorry, I want health and longevity. I fear the day when someone refers to me as a "Breeder" before all else. These guys are my pets. Simple as that. Yep, I'm going to breed them. But I can't imagine getting so caught up in the potential income that I would forget what should always come first... the well being of the creature in your care.

Harsh, I cant speak for Anthony but I would assume that he cares for the animals he owns. I don't think he would sacrifice the longevity of his animals either to make a buck, after all even if that were the case, the longevity of his animals would be an asset. I don't think that just because some one is labelled a "breeder," they forget the well-being of the creatures they own.

Final note: I can assure you all that the colour of my future cresties will be due to their impeccable breeding and care, NOT due to the pigments I put in their dish at night

I believe the colour is not due to the diet. The potential is within the animal already. I read (not sure if it was on that kingsnake thread or another) that when Allen took some wild caught specimens after a while on the initial diet given they lost their colour but after a while on the CGD they regained their colour. And before you reply to this I know you are going to say its about marketing :p

DragnDrop:

Did you note the part where he says he feeds live prey including roaches (mentioned in one of his follow-up posts) to his geckos because he likes to have them grow faster? And the part about the CGD being adequate for the average pet?

Yes I did read that. However Allen does maintain his breeding stock completely on CGD. Here is a direct quote from page 41.

"Allen Repashy's breeding colony is maintained exclusively on this diet with very good results in terms of health, colour, weight and breeding."

Once again, support for the diet.

So this is a complete balanced diet suitable for being the sole food? Why do they grow faster when fed bugs then?

I'll admit that they grow faster on a diet with insects as well, so does the rhac book. Does anyone know the growth rate of cresties in the wild??? I don’t but Im sure this info would be useful.

StickyToes:

The idea that babyfood takes away from the nutritional content of the food is absurd unless you are strictly feeding the diet and babyfood mix, but even then if you were to add one part CGD to 2 parts babyfood you would still have the same amount of CGD irregardless of whether or not you used H2O. Yes there could be extra sugars that could potentially lead the geckos to store them as fat, and overtime this could lead to obese geckos that would have very little breeding success, but once again you would be pretty hard pressed to find any breeder that follows this method exclusively. It still doesn't alter the fact that the content of the food mix is still one part CGD plus all the extras that may be in the fruit that definitely won't be in the water. As Hilde has pointed out already, even Repashy and AC don't feed the diets exclusively.

Perhaps thats was the argument feeding the diet with babyfood exclusively but when I heard that Allen mentioned it, I made a mental note. Although Anthony doesn't feed his cresties exclusively CGD, Allen does feed his BREEDING colony exclusively on CGD. I capitalized breeding to make a point that perhaps it’s not his entire colony and that his younger geckos do receive insects or fruits. Who knows?

Steve - Do you have a link that you could post that would direct us to Allen's hatch rates. I have the April 98 article where he gives the averages for 5 females and their hatch success rates for 96, 3 of which were on his mix of fruit babyfood and meat mixed with a few other ingredients, and I would like to compare then and now. I think it could go a long way to speak volumes about changes in success with just a powdered diet.

Allen didn't give any figures but the link is listed above.

After reading through the posts about this on the other forum I have to say that I was surprised at the level of arrogance that was displayed on several issues by one person in particular.

That was the entertaining part ;) I can't speak for Anthony so I can’t comment on what you have quoted.

Everyone:

Im not going to argue against that variety is better because this is true. However with the success Allen is having, It is a suitable as a diet for cresties. Like I said earlier, I do feed other items (looking for lobster roaches, let me know ;) )to my cresties but CDG is a primary component.

Crestie keepers are doing different things and having success using different methods. I have seen Hilde diet in action with Betty's cresties and it’s working great from what I can see and hear. It also taste good too. The Rhac book mentions different diets not just one, so I don’t get the impression that if you aren't feeding CGD to your animals you are doing them a disservice. Different things work for different people and if they are working for both you and your animals, I don’t see a reason for making a switch unless the changes of improvement are drastic.

Im in the on the New Caledonia trip
:D Lets send the first all Canadian crew down there for some research!!!:p

[DragnDrop]

You weren't kidding when you said you'd reply, huh? LOL

You do have some great points too.
As interesting as this discussion is, I think it still boils down to..... we all seem to agree to disagree on what's best, just as long as whatever they're getting is supplying them with everything they need.

[little_dragon_]

I made a batch of DragonDrop's fruit/yogurt receipe. It was very affordable. For $10 I filled 6 large ice cub trays and I drank a glass myself. I'm going to add cgd/ggd diet to it before serving. I thought I would give it a try considering there's a lot of wasted diet that goes into my Rhac Cages. I do believe in CGD but getting them to eat it is a real pain. I might just hand feed it to them once a week that way they will get a fresh portion.

[CDN-Cresties]

I think it still boils down to..... we all seem to agree to disagree on what's best, just as long as whatever they're getting is supplying them with everything they need.

You hit the nail right on the head there.:)

I do believe in CGD but getting them to eat it is a real pain

Yeah it can be a pain. I think it only becomes a pain when its a crestie who wasn't exposed to CGD as a hatchling. All my adult are eating CGD. Some took it quicker than others but all are eating it 3 to 4 times per week without any issues.

[babysweet]

CDN-Cresties, I appreciate the time involved in your reply! :)

I can also agree to disagree ;) but I do have to make one point.

I think that hatch rate is a terrible measure of health. In fact, to be 100% realistic here, none of our current knowledge regarding Rhacodactylus allows us to judge their true health with ANY degree of reliability.

We can, however, measure the presence or lack of disease. But I just don't think that's good enough.

For example, (I apologize as I realize that mammals are not a good comparison for herps in any way.. but you gotta stick with what you know best!) in humans, dogs and cats, liver disease, kidney disease, and pancreatic disease are all unnoticable until up to 90% of the organ has failed! Outward signs of health (while definitely better than the alternative) are not an accurate way to determine the body's true state.

How many times have you heard about an individual who ate healthy, worked out, took all their vitamins ;) and at the age of 45 dropped dead from a coronary episode?

What really needs to be done is a mass collection of blood and tissue samples from WILD Ciliatus individuals, to establish a "normal" range for this species.

The problem with most current "normal" ranges for herps is that the sample groups that participate are 99% of the time tested while in captivity, giving skewed results.

For example, my dogs and cats are raw fed. Their cholesterol is above normal, their WBC count is a bit below normal, and several other values are "out of whack." However, the control group of dogs are 100% kibble fed... how is this comparable?

Now, I'm aware that I'm beating a dead horse here, as the chances of such an undertaking EVER coming to fruition are UNBELIEVABLY slim (let's face it, most people won't even take an ill herp to the vet due to their "disposable" reputation, let alone take an otherwise healthy animal for preventative measures) but I have to say that *I* would not put *my* name on a diet that has not been tested in this fashion. And I don't have a reputation to protect, being a relative newcomer to the world of herps, and especially to Ciliatus.

I'm not suggesting that Rapashy would willingly deceive his customers (but let's face it, this happens DAILY -- remember the Ford catastrophe when it was discovered that they allowed faulty gas tanks to kill several people as they had determined that the recall would cost more than paying off the families of the deceased and injured?) but...

Well, the bottle itself actually states: "All-in-One Super Food, Includes all Foods, Vitamins and Minerals."

There is no argument that this in itself is a deception, based on the FACT that we don't KNOW *all* of the "foods, vitamins and minerals" that Ciliatus requires.

Ok, well, I've rambled on enough for one day. But I do agree with you, Hilde... this is DEFINITELY a very interesting discussion.

Just want to say a thanks to everyone who has participated, whether a line or two or a whole page. ;)

It's been extremely enjoyable. :P

Kim

P.S. CDN-Cresties -- how DID your exams go? :)

[CDN-Cresties]

Babysweet,
Ill have to disagree with you again on this ;) Sure we dont have every available information at our disposal but what we do know is that hatchling survival rates are greatly effected by the diet of the parents. Let me quote from the rhac bible :p

"Diet of the parents. Increasingly, factors such as vitamin/mineral supplementation of the parents are being recognized as playing cruical role in the health of a developing embryo. Too much or too little may affect the nutirent composisiton of the egg yolk and the calcium matrix of the eggshell, factors that can consequently impact the health of the embryo and hatch success."

If Allen noticed that he had more hatchlings pipping the egg and surviving from those parents who ate CGD compared to those crestie parents who who feed a babyfood/fruit mix with supps. Wouldn't you be inclined to say that they are indeed healthier?

Exams went well. My major is psych (even though Im planning to be a teacher) so I can score A's on exam easily. Anything else its a toss up between A's and B's. Hopefully your husbands exams went well. :thumbsup:

[babysweet]

Firstly, congrats on the good results! Hubby did very well also, his major being computers and networking. My very best friends are teachers, and while I don't envy the job, you're going to have a BLAST. :p

I'm not saying that a bad diet won't negatively affect hatch rates... but there are so many variables involved here.

We don't know what the composition of Rapashy's original fruit/bugs diet was, the capabilities of the people actually making/serving the diet, etc.

Yes, I would say that a low hatch rate can possibly be attributed to the diet, but there are SO many factors at play. Also, it's possible that while the diet improves the health of the babies, it does less for the health of the adults.

I'll use the example of chickens in hatcheries. They're given a special diet with plenty of additives, and they put out up to SEVEN times the amount of viable eggs as chickens should. However, these chickens have short lives, and poor health.

I'm not saying that there aren't results that could be interpreted as indicative of good/poor health in regards to hatch rates alone... but to say that a fast growth rate and viable offspring are the *best* indicators is a bit skewed, in my opinion.

Here's a variable to consider... are you likely to breed a Cresty who has a proven POOR record of hatch rates? Or a Cresty who has a GOOD record? I know dog breeders who 30 years ago would be ecstatic with a group of 6 or 8 puppies... and now are getting into the 10's and 12's... so many puppies that their mother can't care for them, and they're a drain on her body. Is this the diet? No, most of these dogs are fed Pedigree and Dog Chow. No offence to those here who feed these foods to their pets, but lets face it, it's the difference between eating steroid-injected and pesticide-covered food supplemented with takeout and Kraft Dinner. Sure it'll get you by, but you're doctor's not going to recommend it. It's the knowledge that you breed GOOD producers to GOOD producers, thus increasing your percentage of GOOD producers... until you can breed better to better, and then great to great. It's unnatural selection at its peak.

I would be more likely to attribute the increased hatch rates to his knowledge of good husbandry and genetics... if I were interested in cataloguing hatch rates for that purpose.

I'm not trying to single you out, Hilde, so I won't ask for a number... but how would *you* rate your hatch rates? Poor, good, great?...

Hopefully this evening I will have the chance to dissect the ingredients of CGD and make a more educated response to the ingredients themselves.

Till then...

Kim

[babysweet]

One more quick note... I realize it's a necessary evil, as we're really not privy to any other text regarding Rhacodactylus...

But it must be taken into consideration that the "Rhac Bible", while a fantastic resource for all, was written by Rapashy.

I personally was a bit offended by the fact that he used this collection of information to push his product. There's a definite conflict of interest here, regardless of whether or not people find it relevant, it's there like the proverbial elephant in the corner.

I liken it to vets selling dog food... of *course* they're going to recommend the brand they make $$ on...

Kim

*edit* - there's a reason that doctors are not allowed to sell drugs themselves. In fact, that's something that needs to change in the veterinary field as well...

[DragnDrop]

I'm not trying to single you out, Hilde, so I won't ask for a number... but how would *you* rate your hatch rates? Poor, good, great?...

Last year from January to December, I had 10 gargoyle eggs (would have been 11 but I broke one :( ) of which 7 hatched, one was infertile and the last 2 of the year where laid outside the nesting box, probably infertile. That's 7 out of 7 fertile unsmooshed eggs hatched. If you count the ones not laid in the box, it's 7 out of 9 fertile eggs hatched.
Cresties -- only 5 females were bred (always give some girls a year off) last year, 2 eggs every month for 8 months, like clockwork, 80 making eggs. One egg had twins bringing the count to 81, but one of them died at hatching, the other a couple of days later, 4 eggs (last clutches again) were infertile and 3 eggs developed part way didn't hatch at all. That brings the total to 81 possible hatchlings (including the twins), minus 9 casualties. Finaly tally - 72 made it to eat me out of house, home, crickets and yogurt :)
If you don't count the infertile eggs nor the "probably doomed to begin with" twins, then it's 72 out of 75 hatched and lived to poop on the enclosure glass. :eek:

I guess that's a good to great hatch rate? Good thing about them is that they don't need diapers. ;)

[CDN-Cresties]

Kim,

you bring up some valid points of what could cause the increased hatched rates. I'd be more inclined to say it could be the age of the breeders.

There's also an ingredient forum on Allen's site that you can use for some help. Although the forum is empty right now, you can crisin it.

[tHeGiNo]

(well, not wasted exactly, but by morning I'd take it out and let my dog, a glutton

LOL! Despite never having seen you in person yet, I kinda coined you as a min pin type person :P. Thanks for that recipe, from both myself and my geckos! I am making a batch today, should be interesting to say the least. It is an absolutely awesome idea, especially the ice cube idea! Did you come up with this yourself? One quick question, how long are you leaving the 'ice cubes' out before offering?

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
LOL! Despite never having seen you in person yet, I kinda coined you as a min pin type person :P.

I also have a Bichon Frise and a cat who thinks she's a direct descendant of the Sacred Cats of the Egyptian Pharaohs and should be treated as such ;)

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
Thanks for that recipe, from both myself and my geckos! I am making a batch today, should be interesting to say the least. It is an absolutely awesome idea, especially the ice cube idea! Did you come up with this yourself? One quick question, how long are you leaving the 'ice cubes' out before offering?

Some day gecko book I read many moons ago mentioned freezing the fruit mix for them so it could be made in bulk and work out cheaper. I just borrowed that idea.
Thawing the cube is easy - leave it out for an hour or two, or nuke it for a few seconds. As long as it's room temperature, you can serve it. I can't really say how long to let it thaw since I use at least 6-8 cubes at a time, takes them longer to melt than one cube would.

[tHeGiNo]

LOL damn white fluffy dogs, who never stop barking! :P

Awesome, thank you very much, your kindness does not go unnoticed :D.

[Painted Desert]

Sure, you've met her... she's always beside me at the shows... so she can kick me if i even think about purchasing anything else!
Hilde is the older and wiser one:D with the nice 20something daugher......good with herps too :)and plays a MEAN game of ice hockey. Nuke time for one cube is 15 seconds. Thaw time at room temp is about 4hrs...give or take.
Watch the "dollar rack" for sell offs in the produce section.. easy to come by are papaya, kiwi,pears,strawberrys and bananas... a little more watching required for figs and peaches...but, their season is coming:) I typically make a batch for less than 5 dollars..but then, I don't drink a glass unless white rum is a critical component! Cheers!:D

[tHeGiNo]

When everyone was saying they were trying some for themselves, I thought they were jokin, looks like my geckos wont be eating afterall :D.

Aha! That was the renowned Hilde beside you? NOW you tell me :P Thanks! So turns out I have met you after all then. LOL! Thanks for the tips!

[Betty Miskie]

Quote from Linda "I don't drink a glass unless white rum is a critical component! Cheers!"
OMG, I never thought of that!!! I definitely will when the weather gets back to hot. Thanks for the tip. All of a sudden our crested diet recipe will be quadrupled in order for to feed them and our drinking habit.
Betty

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by Betty Miskie
All of a sudden our crested diet recipe will be quadrupled in order for to feed them and our drinking habit.
Betty

Omigosh! I've created a monster :eek: :D

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
Aha! That was the renowned Hilde beside you?

Renowned? You mean I'm famous now? Probably famous for promoting drunken crestie keepers :)
If I'm famous, does anyone want my autograph (not on a blank cheque though ;) )?


Originally posted by Painted Desert
Hilde is the older and wiser one :D with the nice 20something daugher......

Older, huh? Isn't your sister who's with you at the shows quite often, the younger one? ;)

My daughter Erika is the one who's alwyas got our newest fat-tail acquisition up her sleeve for the whole show.

[tHeGiNo]

If I'm famous, does anyone want my autograph

Please, on the back of your nicest crested gecko :D. I am sure he/she will do your name proud over at my place.

Older, huh? Isn't your sister who's with you at the shows quite often, the younger one? ;)

LOL! Ouch!

[little_dragon_]

I used the mixture for the first time a couple days ago. They finished more then half of their dishes. I sprinkled a bit of GGD in it as well,

[babysweet]

LOL... I absolutely LOVE the way this thread has taken off. :p

Love the rum idea... the last time I pureed some fruit for the cresties, I said to hubby "when was the last time there was something in this blender that didn't have rum in it?" I guess we found the solution to that!! ;)

Can you just see everyone at the next show, geckos in tow, with big glasses of Hilde's "special" mix?

How about this...

CGKD (Crested Gecko Keepers Diet)

LOLOL

On a slightly more serious note, I have been going through the ingredients list on the CGD... and although I'm only a small percentage through... I've written a page. SO, although I still have every intention of completing it... it's going to take much longer... and I don't know that I will be able to post it here.

That said, it's been an eye opener so far. There are a few things that I am impressed have been included... and a few that I'm now more nervous about. But, we'll get into that later.

Till then...

Bottoms up!

Kim

[DragnDrop]

Kim, have you read the ingredients and reasoning behind it on the 'official' website? It's interesting.

[Phoenix]

Now, I'm not sure if I've asked this yet or not, but is this okay for Gargoyles? Anything need to be changed? Thanks!

[DragnDrop]

Yup, it's okay to use on gargoyles. I feed it to all my current Rhacs - ciliatus, auriculatus, leachianus. Back in the old days when I had other frugivorous species, I also fed it to Lygodactylus picturatus, capensis and kimhowelli, Gehyra vorax, all the Phelsuma species I kept (as well as Gekko stentor and Homopholis bovini who got it as a treat only). During breeding season, I let my female leopards have a bit of it once or twice a month. Some leos love it, some won't touch it. It also works great for 'handfeeding' premature hatchlings, weak or recovering geckos.