Spinning spiders?

[csolis]

Just wondering about this whole spider "spinners" situation. Does anyone who owns a spider have this probelm? Ive read and heard all the talk but just wondering if anyone has any first hand accounts.

[malaysianbloods]

what are you talking about? There is a morph between the spider and pinstripe that is named very close to that.

[brutus]

I was thinking, Huh?

[BornboreD]

Well................

SOME people think that the Spider morph comes along with a "Neuroogical Defect" that causes the animal to actually"spin" meaning twist itself around uncontrollably when picked up or otherwise. There was a recent thread on Kingsnake about this, brought up by a certain someone. To my knowledge only a very small number of Spiders over the years have shown this, of which I've never witnessed.........perhaps one of the "gurus" could shed more light?? It seems to be a very similar situation to the "kinking" rumour in Caramel Albinos.

Colin

[justinO]

I was told by a said "guru" that the spinning thing isn't actually a spin, and it goes away after a few months anyway, if by some tiny chance a snake of any ball morph happens to get it.
Also, that's it's not inheritable, and nothing showing that it is passed on, so there's nothing to worry about.

[NiagaraReptiles]

The neurological issues with Spiders has only recently come into public light, but is a fact non the less. I've seen a half dozen or so in person, and have been given several statistics and accounts of breeders seeing the same thing in their offspring regardless of whether the parent had a problem or not. I don't think I could accurately put a percentage estimate to this problem as a lot of breeders are not saying anything still. It can be subtle, and doesn't manifest as a violent seizure or anything. Typically, the animal, when in motion, carries it's head tilted and seems to have a different movement about it. From what I've seen and heard, it appears as though this really shows once the snake is a little older and around 500-700 grams in weight. I don't believe that this is just a phase and that the animal will grow out of it.

As for the kinking in Caramels........um, that's far beyond rumour and has been known as fat for years. Again, I've seen several of these in person and have accounts from several Caramel Albino breeders. So far it doesn't look as though is a specific lineage, as there are a few wild caughts that also produce kinks. or inbreeding........it's just one of those things I guess. Usually the kink is right at the lower 1/3 point of the snake and the spine bends completely upwards. I have heard of a couple that have only had kinked tails beyond the vent, however.

No I do not have a Spider, and I'm not trying to knock them..........they are beautiful snakes............but this problem does exist.

JonK

[Bristen]

The real issue here, is how much of a problem is it really? Most of the bigger breeders (that chose to deal with spiders) have all attested that these animals eat very well (some claim better than other ball pythons), they breed just as well as others (some claim better than others as well).. so if a snake is eating well, growing, breeding, making babies, etc... is there a problem to be concerned about? How many years has Kevin @ NERD had spiders in his collection? Any of them die from it? Is the animal "miserable" because of it? I personally would be more concerned with the kinking in Caramels than the "spinning spiders".. but that's just my opinion.. I don't own any spiders yet, but I sure hope to get my hands on one this year (almost impossible) or next year (slightly possible)...

Thanks for listening,
Bristen.

[RandyRemington]

To me one of the real issues is why both of these tendencies (spiders to spin and caramels to kink) took so long to come out in public. I first became aware of both within the last year and don't think either was posted publicly before that although the caramel one might have been known by some inside breeders.

There was a post by Jeremy Stone about learning about the spider thing when he hatched babies (in 2003 I think). He must have paid $10K - $20K for his male and it sounded like not a word had been mentioned to him.

Maybe neither problems are big deals but at least buyers should be informed and as a group discussing the issues we might be able to come up with some solutions. The secrecy makes me wonder what else I don't know about the morph projects I'm working toward or would like to get involved in.

[Bristen]

As always Randy, you come up with interesting thoughts... one thing is for sure though, the more people have morphs, the more it will become impossible to keep this type of information secret...

There are particular rumours that are interesting though... some of those are

a) spinning spiders
b) kink-ing caramels
c) non-eating pieds and het-pieds

There could be many others that I don't know about.. does anybody have more of those? I'm wondering if it's a known fact that pieds and het-pieds are worst eaters than regular ball pythons, or it's just a rumour? Fill me in if anybody knows more on this one or other "morph bad news".. I'd be much interested in it...

As Randy said, it would be interesting to know all of this before you invest big dollars into something...

Thanks,
Bristen.

[BoidKeeper]

eat very well (some claim better than other ball pythons),
I've heard the opposite; I've heard they have terrible aim.
That one point aside I have to disagree with your whole post. I think it is morally wrong to continue to produce animals that know to have genetic defects all in the name of the mighty dollar. Anyone who spends that much on a snake is making an investment and wants a return kink or no kink neurological disorder or not.
My two cents,
Trevor

[Markus Jayne]

Having a spider myself and having produced over dozen of them, I feel I should address this issue.

Let me say that of all the ball pythons I own, Spiders are by far the hardiest. I purchased my Spider from Rennaisance Reptiles in the summer of 2003. I was very picky about which Spider I was eventually going to buy and waited until I saw one that truly represented what I thought was the perfect spider.

He never missed a meal and grew like a weed. At 4 months of age he was over 600 grams and I placed him in with a small female. An hour later he was locked up like a pro. To make a long story short, he fathered 7 clutches...all fertile!!!! Not bad for a young male and a problem morph! LOL!

When the Spiders started hatching it was truly incredible. His good looks and fetching personality were passed along without fail. Very reduced tight pattern with no spotting.

Now getting to what some people claim is neurological damage. I have seen some different behavior in some of my Spiders, but nothing that I would be alarmed by. Occasionally they will try to climb up their container and flip over backwards. I have normals that do that! Some will do what you would consider a mild case of star gazing. But spin...never!

I did a study of my own just now. I took out all my spiders individually and placed each one of them down on my floor and let them go. They ALL crawled around like normal. One however had a very mild head shake when he would lift it a few inches off the ground and pause. When I say mild, I mean barely noticable, but I thought I'd mention it.

I can also say this, that every one of my Spiders ate the first time it was offered food and still eat without ever missing a meal, and I start all my balls on RATS! Not mice! They keep eating. They keep growing and they breed young!!!!

I also don't think they have bad aim, I just think they are extremely eager and get a head of themselves sometimes, just like many of my aggressive feeders. I feed my balls live and good aim is a factor otherwise serious damage could occur of which I have had none.

I only had one customer call with a concern about the one with the mild head shake and he chose to take another instead which is now breeding.

To make a statement on a public forum and throw out a number without any personal experience whatsoever is irresponsible and grossly negligent. Yes, maybe someone did have problems with Spiders, but maybe they also spray or treat there cages with something that caused it. Who knows? I certainly don't. I would like to know if there is a problem as well, with any ball python morph for that matter.

I find it funny that people can come out on a public forum and make a blanket statement about a morph without ever owning one let alone breed and produce them. It's a shame really. Hmmm...and it always seems to happen when my name is attached to it in some way. Go figure. Was there a hidden adgenda. I'm beginning to think so. This isn't the first time it's happened. I thought things had changed.

In closing, if there was a problem, and I'm talking about a real significant problem, don't you think that it would have been brought to light a long time ago. Afterall people were spending in the tens of thousands for Spiders and nothing was mention once until recently and by some one who has zero experience. That should tell you something.

I don't want to sound like I am defending owning and breeding Spiders. That is ridiculous in itself. But I could certainly see a lot of the have-nots having a field day with this one as a way to justify them not owning one in the first place. JMHO!

Now to Caramels....

I have heard of but never witnessed any kinking. I have also never produced any caramels so I can't comment from personal experience. I love caramels and am very bullish on the morph. I am working with both the Janie Malsin/Doug Beard line and the Mark Ball line I acquired from Brian Sharp. I have decided to outcross these two line to avoid any potential problems. I'll keep you posted.

Have a great day! Spring is on its way.


Mark

[mykee]

I'm with Bristen on this one. If this "neurological disorder" does not manifest itself as a breeding, eating, eliminating or normal behavior problem, what's the problem? From what I've heard they are great eaters, prolific breeders and beautiful specimens. I personally would have more of a problem with purchasing a non-eating and/or non-breeding het pieds or pieds then I would with a spider who eats, breeds and poops like a champ who might or might not have a slight neurological problem. JMOI.

[BoidKeeper]

Hi Mark,
I hope that the statement I made that you or anyone else could consider blanket is that I believe it would be unethical to breed a snake if you knew it had a genetic problem. If the snake is fine then of course there is no problem. But no matter what the species or what the morph if there is a problem it shouldn't be bred. I'm not trying to say that people who have health spiders shouldn't breed them. I'm saying that people who invest into a snake, be it spider or a boa with out eyes or an amel corn with a kink and breeds it any way only to try and make a return on their investment is behaving un-ehtically.
Cheers,
Trevor

[BoidKeeper]

mykee albino boas with out eyes eat and poop and breed too. Would you buy one of them to use in a project?
Cheers,
Trevor

[Markus Jayne]

Trevor,

I was not referring to you in regards to making a blanket statement. I was referring to the original post on the 'other' forum. I think that this is a good topic of discussion.

In regards to breeding animals known to have severe problems, I agree it is unethical.

Years ago I was into breeding dogs. Labrador retrievers to exact. Labs are famous for getting hip displasia. All my females were from the best of bloodlines and they were all cleared of any hip displasia and eye problems from certified vets. However there were some labs that although cleared would still throw pups that got hip dis before 2 years of age. Does that mean that we should all stop breeding dogs and more specifically, labs?

Of all the labs I produced (12 litters) I only had one come back with bad hips and she was grossly overweight. But I do know of sires that, although cleared and from great pedigree, threw pups consistantly with bad hips. It happens.

The point I am trying to make is we all try to do our best with what we have and for someone to pretend to be a professional and make a statistical statement without concrete evidence, proves otherwise.

Mark

[mykee]

Trevor; not having eyes and this "alleged" "spinning" thing are two COMPLETELY different matters. Until this "spinning thing" either comes to light that EVERY spider is genetically predisposed to it AND it's detrimental in ANY WAY (Wow, they look at the sky, that's DEVESTATING!) I don't see anything wrong with owning/breeding them (so count me in eventually as one of the hundreds of breeders out there who are all "morally bankrupt" by your reasoning).

[Jeff_Favelle]

I'm with Mark and Mykee. Having owned HUNDREDS of Ball Pythons, the one Spider I own is literally bullet-proof. He's just over 5 months old and is on to his 5th female. Not even my Pastel male could have done that when I got him 2 years ago. This Spider is a MONSTER. Unreal. He is more "head shy" than most of my normals or Pastels. Meaning he'll ball-up quicker. But he's also not even a 1/2 year old yet!

Hardy as a cuccumber this guy is! :)

http://members.shaw.ca/internet_pics/spider_breed_2004.jpg

[BornboreD]

Blammo!!!! ;)

Colin

[Jeff_Favelle]

Actually, he's on to his 6th female now (see pic). Yes, they seem to be more head-shy, but damn, they are hardcore in every other aspect of snake life! I mean, albinos aren't as good of breeders as spiders, so maybe we shouldn't be producing them? Its all relative, isn't it?


Ha ha, watch the stupid thing be infertile. I'd blame it on Mandic! ;)

http://members.shaw.ca/internet_pics/spider_breed_2005.jpg

[RandyRemington]

I assumed the recent thread on the "other" site had political origins but it was still nice to see any information and numbers even if only hearsay. I forget who started the original thread that broke the news a few months ago but most of the posts have had to be from people with limited spider experience because those with more experience aren't posting on the subject. There where posts from NERD and Stone in the original thread and Sean in the newer one and Markus here so I guess I can't really complain about the info now that it's out, just about the delay in getting it out in the first place. It does sound like the caramel kinking might be an example of a REAL problem that went years in secrete. It will be nice when we can start to get enough of a sample size report that we can quantify how common the spider twitch is.

It's interesting that we are only now starting to quantify the sporadic het pied marker that is still widely discredited years after finally breaking publicly. If the 70-80% figures I'm hearing on that are accurate it probably would have helped the credibility of the marker had those numbers come out earlier.

So aren't most all morphs defects? It seems like it's always going to be grey as to if a morph has serious enough problems to question the ethics of breeding.

Someone mentioned being happy if your snake is pooping. I just had to put down a possible het pied adult female that could no longer go on her own. I had a 50% chance het pied male with the marker go the same way a couple years ago. My vet dissected him and reported that he had deteriorated muscle walls that looked like a genetic condition in cats called mega colon. I don’t know if either animal was a het much less if it is genetic (they weren’t closely related) vs. some other cause. I’ve not heard of anyone else having this problem with pieds but after the caramel and spider thing I wonder if anyone would say anything if there was a problem.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Sorry about your het pied man. That's scary, because that's not even something that's really husbandry-related. Just when you think you have everything under control.......

Hope the balance of kharma evens out for ya man. :)

[RandyRemington]

Actually she was only a 25% chance het pied and didn't even have the marker which is why I really can't make any generalizations about the pied gene out of it.

[justinO]

Jeff - My spider from Mark won't even move if you touch his head, just continues on the exact same path as before..... it's annoying when I actually need him to stop moving (like for pictures!!!)... ha ha ha

Randy - I'm sorry for your loss... it's so sad that sometimes snakes just don't make it, not because of any genetic defects or bad husbandry. We had a burm die like your ball from a sickness that we couldn't prevent, and it really sucked!

In any case, until studies are done on spiders to find out if this problem even exsists, if it's passed on, and if it's bad for the snake in any way.... I like my eatting like a pig, breeding like a bunny, looking like a star spider ball python.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/507/1849vegassm.jpg

Jessy

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's awesome Justin!! And can you believe the SIZE of these things after just 5 months? Insane.

Best of luck! :)

[BoidKeeper]

I'm hearing a lot of positives here. Where is all this spinner stuff coming from? Is it just one person on the other site with one messed up spider?
Cheers,
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Politics. Does it surprise you considering the source??

[csolis]

Thanks Mark Mandic for clearing all that up and sharing your experience with the morph. I found it funny that someone who has never owned or bred a spider "knew" so much about them.lol That gem that me and Paul_Begg got from you is amazing, thanks alot. We will post a few pic once we get all our morphs in. Nice Jeff, good luck with the spider and everything else.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Thanx brother! Now get cracking and post some pics man!!!!! I can't wait to see what you guys got in store! And it must be good, because if you could convince that drunkard Paul B to get a Ball Python, then it HAS to be spectacular. LOL!!! ;)

[Bristen]

Mark, thank you so much for posting! It's nice to hear from all angles! As you pointed out however, it matters most coming from people that has them! It's a good thread, and very interesting topic.. however, nothing more came out other than the list I had mentionned.. that's the whole ball python morph black list? Spinning spiders, kinking caramels, and non-eating pieds? Another one just came to mind, bug-eyed albinos and albino hets perhaps? I have a het-albino male here that really fits into that category... apparently came from Professional Breeders (at least this is what I was told)...

Now, the important stuff is how can I possibly get my hands on a spider??? Argh...

Later all,
Bristen.

[David Kwok]

I have taken some time to reflect on this subject b/c I have never thought of the so called “head shaking” to be a problem. I was fortunate to produce a few spiders in my life and none of the ones I have here roll over! On the contrary from what I have seen; they are the personification of a ball python breeder’s dream. Here’s why:

-In the past few years I’ve had to coax a little over one thousand baby ball pythons to take their first meal. From that large sample, none of the babies that I can remember have taken to pinky rats as fast as spiders and spider siblings. Most of the babies had to be started from older, more heat generating prey such as hopper mice. Many times the hoppers had to be left in the cages for an hour or so before they would eat. Very few of them would eat hoppers off of tongs. Spider clutches were different. Every one of the babies from the spider clutches ate rat pinks right off the bat to my surprise. In my mind, no ball python can out eat a spider.

-I have also noticed that spiders have personalities of their own. I have seen ones that are bold, curious and outgoing and ones that are shy. When I am in the snake room and at times I feel as though they are observing me watching my every move. Is the “head shake” from being overly excited? Is it b/c they have superior eye sight?

-Now when it comes to breeding, it seems to be evident that they breed at an age almost unheard of. Mark was saying his spider bred at three months of age! and Zoolander’s spider by all means is not a slouch neither. (You sure don’t waste anytime Jeff! LOL!) The 2/3 of the spider pos het ghosts that I produced in July have already locked up with a few females each. What a perfect trait to have for a designer snake!

My personal opinion is that spiders are the hottest mutation out there and the future of the mutation is as bright as the mutation itself :P Love’em or hate’em you can’t ignore em.

Dave

P.S. Comments about Caramels and Pieds to come

[Markus Jayne]

I think one of the things we are missing here is the fact that we are dealing with mutations. I am certainly not a genetic expert (maybe Randy can step in here) but isn't every snake morph, other than normals, an instance where something went wrong?

I've not heard about the albino bug eye thing. I've seen some bug eye snakes in photos, but they were not albinos.

Mark

[JDouglas]

The albino bug eye thing was for boas and I have only seen a a few.

The generalizations in this thread are absurd. As far as pieds and het pieds not eating, I purchased a male pied from Anthony McCain, two het females from Cypress Creek and two het females from Exotics By Nature back in the fall. Some said they would be poor feeders and would be stuck on hopper mice. Wrong, ALL of them have switched to rats and at the rate they are growing the male may be big enough to breed now and the females will be big enough next year for sure. I have three different bloodlines and they are all strong eaters.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/reptiless/stuff/hetpied/3.jpg

http://strikingserpents.com/stuff/piebald1big.JPG

[Jeff_Favelle]

Good post Kwok. I think its that sort of insight from people like you and Mark who have actually BRED and hatched Spiders that actually means something. I mean, my Spider is only 5 months old and is 575g and is just wailing on the females. If breeding early (and often) and eating unlike a normal Ball Python is genetically defective, then give me genetically defective any day of the week!!!!

Nice Pied JD!!! :)

[Markus Jayne]

Ditto. My pied hets are all great eaters. My pied is a little picky but acceptable.

Mark

[hiss-hers pyth]

Mark,

Jeff,

David,

Totally agree with you, spiders are a ball python keepers dream come true, they have an unmatched feeding response ( for ball pythons ) which equals to phanominal growth and weight gain. And has everyone has already mentioned increadible breeding prowes, hell when it comes to ball pythons what more could you want, and there increadible looks don't hurt either. We've all seen more posts about stuborn and reluctant feeing ball pythons, than we care to remember, this surely doesn't seem to apply to spiders.

Here is another attestation to the proweses of spider ball pythons. Marc Bouchard and I picked up this little fellow from Mark Mandic a few months ago, and we don't regret it one bit. He weighed 450 grams then, he's now 7 months old and over 800 grams, as never missed a meal, and true to their nature very eager to get with the ladies. He's already bred several of our females this season.

Mark,

I would like to take this oppertunity, to say thank you for one of the most amazing ball pythons in our collection, amongst many others.

Breed on Mark, breed on....!

04 male spider
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2086Spiderman_1aa-med.jpg

04 male spider breeding, sorry about the dark pic we didn't use any flash or lighting as not to disturb them.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2086Spiderman_friend_1-med.jpg


Regards

Michael

[malaysianbloods]

That pied looks awesome and all the spiders posted are just amazing. Good luck everyone.

[Dave Barsalou]

Mine's up to over 500g at about 6mths of age. He came from genes of a wild caught pied same as my albino. He's up over 600g now. From what I've found, different lines have thier own attributes. I sure hope the caramel kink is false, I've got that project underway. For some reason I think the pied must have been tried to different crosses. Garentteed some big breeders have tried. Either it's not compatable or they are holding thier toungues.

Thx
Dave

[RandyRemington]

Someone mentioned the normal siblings perhaps being as exceptional as the spiders in the eating department, is this the consensus?

I'm no genetics expert but I like observing and I've seen an interesting phenomena with captive breeding in general and especially the dominant morphs.

The original imported spider may well have been an exceptional animal in his own right but I suspect some very nice "normal" females have been breed into this line over the years. Spiders are still a high dollar snake and have been so since the beginning so I suppose the spider males got some of the best of the best normal girls from big collections. If even the normal (i.e. no spider gene) siblings are exceptional maybe the exceptional characteristics of this line aren't directly related to the spider gene - although it certainly doesn't seem to be hurting anything.

Another phenomena I've seen a reporting trend on is for dominant type morph males to breed young and be prolific breeders, notably more so than recessive morph males. I think this is selected for very quickly with dominant type genes. For example, say the fist spider produced 10 sons the first year. Maybe only one of those was an exceptional grower/young breeder and was the only one to produce the following year. If he rivaled his father he might produce half the spiders that year. However, with him being a super young breeder himself he might pass this trait on to 50% of his offspring unlike his father who only passed it to 10% (not exactly sure what complex genetics might cause something like that). Since the super son is fathering half the 2nd year production the rate of super young breeder spiders in the entire year's production has gone up from 10% in year 1 to 25% in year 2. Each year a larger and larger percentage of the spiders are produced by these outstanding young males. Pretty soon you are seeing lots of these unbelievable males that might be the result of several generations in a row of 6-month-old males breeding to the best of the best normal females. Selective breeding in overdrive!

On the pied and pied hets, how many of you have breeding sized females yet? Hopefully those good eating young girls will keep it up at least until maturity.