Red eared sliders wild in T.O.

[CuttsCustoms]

I just read recently that redeared sliders have adapted enough to hibernate through our winters and are sucessfully breeding in Ontario. I find it fascinating and would love to know the ponds/lakes they can be found in. I know they naturally can be found up to lake michagan but its amazing they can survive up here.

Ps. i don't not want more I have to happy red ears just wanna see them...

[marisa]

I am fairly certain there are some RES in a pond at a local conservation area near me. It's difficult to get close to the turtles because they take off, but I have seen more than one species basking at this pond (there are only a couple floating logs, and all the turtles hang out there consistantly each year) and I pretty sure one of them was RES.

Marisa

[Shad0w]

Ive caught 2 in the wild right here in the mississauga area... I imagine they were released by people that had them as pets...

[CuttsCustoms]

To bad there isn't a way to tell if there new or old releases. is anyone doind a study. What about tagging them and then seeing if they come up in the spring. alien speices have always fascinated me. well on the topic are there any other non native herps that breed here?

[Shad0w]

Correction.. Ive caught 3...
2 being in the credit river system, and 1 in a friends pool that backs on to rattray marsh

[Ciddian]

I've seen them in a small fenced in pond at Kennedy Commons. Just past Rona on your right side, driving away from progress on that little rd that cuts in between the strip mall type place.

I just adore turtles. :) I always feel sorry for the red ears because of them being dumped all the time. Geeze...nice to know they are ok but i hope it doesnt harm our own populations.
I wonder if its hard being a turtle in the wild...

[meow_mix450]

umm the toronto zoo has been doing a project with the RES turtles and tracting them down. Well I believe there RES turtles it could be another speices I forget, saw it on TV

Meow

[Manitoban Herps]

I beleive they have been found in the Red River in Manitoba too.

[Holy Mackerel]

The RES firstly being in Ontario (wild) is a bad thing, and if they are successfully overwintering and breeding it is that much worse. We in Ontario have very few native turtle species. Those that we do have are in immense trouble. The introduction of an alien species if rarely beneficial for the natural environment. From what I know RES are aggressive eaters, and I fear the risk they are putting on our native turtles. Even the smallest reduction in many of the native turtle populations could be disasterous.

It is horrible to think that people would be so irresponsible to release these turtles into the Ontario or Candian wild.

Steve

[Tim and Julie B]

I have heard they have been seen around here as well. Although our Native Western painted does look similar. People always get those cute little turtles at the pet store then dump them when they get big. It's sad.

[spidergecko]

I gave a RES to a girlfriend about 15 years ago. She let it go in the ravine and I was furious. I wonder if it's still alive.

[marisa]

So honestly. What would a good idea be if someone found a wild RES for some reason? Keep it in captivity if they are a herper?

Not being a smart ***.. :D:D:D I am curious as how that problem could be solved because you are right, that's a bad thing.

Marisa

[Ontario_herper]

Catching "wild" RES's would be beneficial to their native counterparts. Just be sure that what you are going after is indeed a RES.

The tricky part is what to do with these sliders. I know I personally wouldn't want to keep one. Turtle soup anyone?

[Shad0w]

Well,

I can tell ya what I did with two of the ones I caught in the wild...
I kept both a male and female as pets (no intention of breeding)
I really dont think the ones I caught were in the wild too long as they really had no fear of me at all.

[Holy Mackerel]

Hi Marissa,

Unfortunatly RES can be found anywhere from Ottawa, to the GTA, to the Carolinian Zone, to the Bruce Peninsula. Although the distubution is wide, it is patchy, and the populations that are set up are quite small.

At this point I can't say with confidence that there is any action being taken. While some RES have been observed to overwinter (even up in the Ottawa area), it's still believed they can't successfully breed (short, cold season for egg development).

CuttsCustoms mentioned reading something saying they can breed as well, but I havn't come across anything yet (if it's available, it would be great to see).

Like Tim (or Julie) said, they do look very similar to the painted turtle, with the main, and large difference being size. Many of the sightings could very well be erroneous.

As for what individuals can do, I would say not much. There is no protection afforded to the RES in Ontario, so they are up for grabs as pets from the wild. The best people can do is stop releasing them into the wild (which is still occuring as they are still being sold in high numbers in pet stores). Other than that, it's a waiting game to see if they manage to adapt to our environment.

-Steve

[Removed_2815]

Short of keeping them yourself (and ensuring that they don't get re-released; i.e. don't put them up for adoption), the only feasible solution with alien species is extermination. Sounds brutal but this is what we do with invasive species. However, I certainly don't recommend anyone doing this themselves as most people cannot readily discriminate between a RES and a Midland Painted. If you capture a RES you could contact a government agency, though I doubt the response would be swift, or you could contact a University department that focuses on Ontario turtles (hint, hint) and they can take care of it for you.
Cheers,
Ryan

[Shad0w]

Ive seen many midland painted turtles and you are right, from a distance RES could be confused with painted turtles... although I cant see how people could confuse the two close up.

On another note, there is a Super Pet here in Oakville that is selling baby RES's for $50...

I cant believe they are still selling hatchlings with so many unwanted turtles.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Shad0w
although I cant see how people could confuse the two close up.

Oh you'd be surprised what some so-called herpers think they know! We have some pretty crazy misidentifications every year from various species; Smooth Greens that were actually DeKay's, Queen Snakes that were actually Melanistic Garters, Wood Turtles that were actually Blanding's (this was from a member of COSEWIC!).
Ryan

[Shad0w]

LOL..... Ill take yer word for it :)

Talking about Blandings... a few years back I caught a large male that was strolling across the road... I love their "smile"

How did I know it was a male? Well.. lets just say when I picked him up off the road, he popped himself at me... LOL

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Shad0w
I love their "smile"
Me too...
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rbolton1/Folder/Blandings%20Turtle.JPG
Cheers,
Ryan

[Linds]

Originally posted by meow_mix450
umm the toronto zoo has been doing a project with the RES turtles and tracting them down. Well I believe there RES turtles it could be another speices I forget, saw it on TV


Was it snappers? I saw an episode on television where they were tracking snappers over the years, but have never seen anything about RES.

[Holy Mackerel]

I Love it Ryan, Thats Great!

It's a little motivation for me before I continue working!


Steve

[pcw_phoenix]

There is a Wild Population In High Park in Toronto that have been established and they are breeding. I have seen eggs and dead hatchlings.

I know this sounds weird..but why can't we all get some large snappers..and release them to where the RES are establishing. I mean snappers do eat baby turtles. But then again, they might consume the native turtles too.

When the population of the Canada goose exploded, the government or some sort of group caught lots of them..and some were killed?!?!? can we do that? i know it's not right to kill any animal..but they are a none native turtle to Canada.

Please correct me if i am wrong.

Thanks

JZ

[Cake]

When the population of the Canada goose exploded, the government or some sort of group caught lots of them..and some were killed?!?!? can we do that?

They were caught by the government and shipped to the US, eastern Canada, and Northern Ontario, in order to subsidize the population for hunters.

Unfortunatly no one is going to hunt RES, so there is no where to get rid of them. Except extermination as Ryan pointed out. What we need to do is prevent the release of anymore, and hope that the one out there now simply die off. Collection for the pet trade is a bad idea as they are just going to end up right back where they are now. Education is our friend on this one.

I too have only heard that they survive the winter and are not able to reproduce due to our short active season.

[Tim and Julie B]

Well the reverse happens way to much as well where people want a pet turtle and go catch a wild one. I found a local species of turtle (Western Pond) at a petstore someone had dropped it off. The petstore called me to see if I could take it. It was Oct. and to late in the year to release it so it is swimming around in my basement right now. What I am trying to figure out is if it is safe to release it back into the wild. I have no idea how long these people had it.
TB

[Shad0w]

Hahhaha thats the smile Ryan!
Nice pic :D

[Cake]

It was Oct. and to late in the year to release it so it is swimming around in my basement right now. What I am trying to figure out is if it is safe to release it back into the wild. I have no idea how long these people had it.

Its a tough question to answer, and there is no way to tell for sure if it would make it in the wild. If in Oct when you got it, if you could have placed it outside in an enclosure to monitor its behaviour, looking for signs that it might be getting ready to hibernate. Since it is swimming around you might be stuck with it. On the bright side, you now have a great speciman to use in educational presentations about our Canadian herpetofauna;) . And the effects of releasing other species such as the RES into areas which they do not naturally occur, expaining the adverse effects that invasive species can have.

*i am not advocating the collection of native reptile species. Since it probalby will not survie on its own now, it might as well be put to "work".

[Holy Mackerel]

Originally posted by Tim and Julie B
What I am trying to figure out is if it is safe to release it back into the wild.TB

Tim,

Isn't there a worry that the animal may not be safe to enter back into the wild? Unfortunatly, it may be from a different population which is genetically different. The population that you will be introducing it to may be susceptile to different diseases, which may be carried from the turlte you have in your possession.


Unfortunatly, it's a difficult situation.

Steve

[Holy Mackerel]

Just to re-itterate what ryan said,

It is highly unsuggested that people are not exterminating these turtles themselves, out of fear they have made an incorrect identification.


Steve

[marisa]

Well I'd think that because of the long life span a healthy RES can have, just letting them "die off" would take decades even if not one more was released.

Although harsh, after reading it seems the best bet would be to have any you catch put to sleep if you are not willing to care for them. In a perfect world each would have a loving home but they are in non-native territory and they are already sold in pet stores in huge numbers.

Sad but it would seem death would be the best option.

Marisa

[Cake]

Well I'd think that because of the long life span a healthy RES can have, just letting them "die off" would take decades even if not one more was released.

This is very true, but I look at the negative side that Steve and Ryan have pointed out, on decaring open season on them. An incorrect identification, could lead to the killing of a native turtle. Euthenization is the best option, but once agian a false indentification could lead to an individual being displaced from its home range after its identified correctly, and then released.

I agree with you Marisa, your solution does make sense, however I am cautious about the possible negative consequences.

[Tim and Julie B]

I think the turtle would do fine in the wild if released. Turtles rely on instict for most of their behavior. It should hibernate fine next year. The only problem I am having is where is a good spot and is it safe from a health stand point. I would hate to introduce some disease. I am going to ask a conservation person I know that works with local reptiles to see what he has to say and to direct me to a Western Pond turtle site if need be.

[Holy Mackerel]

Originally posted by Tim and Julie B
I would hate to introduce some disease.

It is the population where the turtle is being introduced that I would be worried about.

I commend you on the effort you're putting into the turtle though! Good Job.

Steve

[CuttsCustoms]

you mind telling me were in highpark? if they are res a bunch of us should go remove them. I found the part on them breeding on a conservation/turtle site . all try and find it.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Tim,

I believe the western pond turtle is considered extirpated from Canada at this point. It is very likely that the individual turtle from the pet store was originally obtained from the US. I would suggest that releasing it is not a good idea, for a variety of reasons. I'm sure there is a local educational facility that would be able to put it to good use.

I started looking at red-eared sliders in Ontario in 1993 for a herpetology course project. Even then there was widespread evidence of successful overwintering in southern Ontario. Successful breeding had not been recorded, and I have still yet to hear of an official report of it, though I have heard reliable reports of nests and hatched eggs.

They do not occur naturally by Lake Michigan. The spot on the range map in the field guides is an introduced population (Muskegon county if I recall correctly).

In high park, the best place to see them is basking on logs at the north end of Grenadier Pond. With binoculars, you can easily identify them as sliders. You can also readily observe them at the ponds at the Don Valley brickworks. I've heard many reports of them at Riverdale Farm but haven't been there personally. And a few years ago, we saw 10 sliders while paddling around the Toronto Islands on a sunny afternoon in late April.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[CuttsCustoms]

Jeff you really put it into perspective. but how many turtles could actually have been realeased to reflect the numbers your saying. To me it means that every relativly heathly turtle released is surviving and that they can survive[probably no thrive] until there old. to bad we couldn't date them because I bet most could be found to be realsed during turtle phases, with the odd one being newer or older. I would like to get weights and see how healthy they are compared to others of there genus. are amatuers allowed to do there own studies? would it be classed as a documentry or something. Oh and finally can you stumach pump a turtle to see what they have eaten?

[Holy Mackerel]

CuttsCustoms,

Research on animals must be approved by an ethics committee (university or government). That committee will determine if the research warrents any potential harm that may come as a result of the study.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Actually, that is correct only if you are doing research at a university or with a government agency. Any individual can do their own private, self-funded research, as long as their activities do not violate any laws. In this case, you would have to make sure that your research does not cause cruelty to animals (as defined by the federal statute). Red-eared sliders are not regulated as native wildlife, so you would not need any authorization from the Ministry of Natural Resources. However, if you began doing anything with native turtles, you would.

So catch, weigh, measure, shell notch, etc. all of the sliders you find if you want, but please keep good notes and share your results. Who knows what you might find? Stomach pumping, on the other hand, would likely fall under animal cruelty unless performed by a veterinarian. Of course, you could euthanize them and do a stomach contents analysis...

I wouldn't say that all released turtles are surviving. I've successfully hibernated some outdoors in the past, but I've also had some die. This is hardly a scientific basis to judge anything on, so I hope to examine it further in the future. As for the health and weight of the feral turtles, I'd say they are doing very well here. Of course, that isn't surprising as turtles are not limited (or perhaps rarely so) by the amount of food in their habitat.

Cheers,

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Wu-Gwei]

I have seen RES around Montreal. I have successfully caught female RES in Ottawa. They can and do survive up here in Ottawa and Montreal easily. As for breeding, I do not think there are THAT many in specific area, so chances of mating and producing are still slim. However, people continue to dump RES, which live 30-40 years easily, there will be breeding down the road.

I agree that people should not be randomly catching "RES", cause like many suggested, people mis-ID all the time, even "herpers."

I don't think one or two RES in pond will have a huge effect, but when there are a several, that becaomes a threat to the native species. That is when a local herp club memebers should come in trap and catch to remove them. I don't know about legalities, but that is better than having people randomly removing turtles from our habitats, not certain if it is a algae-covered RES or a mucky painted.

Remove them if you are certain and if you can, but until they are proven to be a problem, better to leave them alone.

Cheers,
JJ ;)

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by CuttsCustoms
I would like to get weights and see how healthy they are compared to others of there genus. are amatuers allowed to do there own studies? would it be classed as a documentry or something. Oh and finally can you stumach pump a turtle to see what they have eaten?
I should have mentioned that if you require any advice, feel free to contact me (or Jeff, as I'm sure he'd be willing to help) as there are various standards for mark-recapture methods and turtle measurements. There's also some background information for notching that we could help you with (i.e. scute number assignment, etc.). It would help for you to have this information ahead of time so that you know you will be recording everything you need and performing everything as efficiently as possible.
Cheers,
Ryan
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rbolton1/Folder/Painted%20Process.JPG

[CuttsCustoms]

I am very sorry for taking so long to reply. And I am still interested in pursuing this . If you Mr. Bolton could share your info, how you record and mark turtles and maybe a sample page of info I would be grateful. In the meantime I have to buy another memory stick for my camera strictly for it. Im still interested in anybody elses experiences with WC red ears in non native habitat. Can I use a barrel type turtle trap? I would assume they can't harder to catch then painteds, which I have caught in the water with small koi typr hand nets.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Using a turtle trap would be a bad idea, as you could easily catch painteds or other species with it. I believe that this would also be considered illegal. Hand or dip net would be your best bets.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[wetlander]

You can also look in the Humber Marshes (Humber River South of Bloor Street) and the Mouth of the Rouge River. I do lots of work in these areas and see quite a few of them.

[Removed_2815]

First, you need to draft up a turtle data sheet. This should include the following:
Notch #:_______________ (this is just a number that you assign arbitrarily - more on this later)
Your name:_______________
Processing date: _______________
First time capture?: _____ (Y/N)
Year last captured: _____
Year of first capture: _____
Capture location: _______________ (be as detailed as possible; GPS is ideal)
Turtle sex: _____ (M/F)
Gravid?: _____ (Y/N) (it's relatively simple to check if a female RES is gravid, best to have someone show you)
Date captured: _____ (if different from processing date)
Method of capture: _______________
Behaviour during capture: _______________ (basking, nesting, etc.)

Turtle measurements in cm (to the nearest mm): (get some good digital callipers)
Midline plastron length: _____
Maximum plastron length: _____
Left front claw length: _____
Right front claw length: _____
Midline carapace length: _____
Maximum carapace length: _____
Carapace width: _____
Maximum turtle height: _____
Mass (g): _____ (get a good spring scale)
*you could also approximate age if you'd like. Scute lines/ridges are pretty accurate for younger turtles but adults are impossible to estimate age with any degree of certainty.

Notch locations:
This involves assigning a number system to the marginal scutes. You will then be able to select a combination of scutes that will add up to the arbitrarily selected notch number that you have assigned for that turtle. For example:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rbolton1/Folder/Scute%20notch.jpg
This photo is from the data sheet for the Midland Painted turtle in my above post. This turtle's notch number is 1545 (the 846 on her back is her tag ID, as we also tag these turtles). You can see that I have put a ">" next to the marginal scute that I will notch in order to make the number 1545 (1000 + 400 + 100 + 40 + 4 + 1). You might want to have a number scheme planned out ahead of time in order to minimize the amount of scutes you have to notch. After you've selected what scutes you must notch then you simply restrain the turtle (you can do this by wrapping the turtle in a cloth leaving only the desired scute exposed, make sure that the cloth restrains the turtle's head and extremities) and use a metal file to notch the scutes. Don't cut too far into the scute (about 1/3 to 1/2 of the way in) because you don't want to hit any blood vessels. You can see how the scutes have been notched on the turtle in my above post.

Deformities and wounds:
You should also include a schematic drawing of the turtle's plastron on your data sheet because this step requires that you draw any deformities (such as extra scutes, etc.) and wounds, or any other identifying characteristics (as notches are not permanent). You should also include a section where you can describe the deformities and wounds - make sure you have a complete understanding of scute morphology/location (nuchal, marginals, costals, vertebrals, gular, humeral, pectoral, abdominal, femoral, anal, bridge, etc.). You can find this on the internet.

You can also keep track of anything else you find to be pertinent; parasitism (leeches), time of day, weather conditions, etc.

I think that's about it for the basics.

Cheers,
Ryan

[wetlander]

LoL Ryan. I love that smile, but this ones more evil
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/625Snapping_Turtle1-med.jpg

[Bristen]

just in case it's of interest to anybody, I've owned a "wild caught RES" for a few years... I have no idea how long it had been left in the wild, but a friend of mine once gave me a "wild" turtle she caught in a blueberry field... definately a RES and I kept it for a few years before getting rid of all my turtles...

I live on the east coast (New Brunswick) and I would say our winters are way "harsh-er" than southern Ontario.. it would be interesting to know how long it had been around and if it had managed to survive our New Brunswick winters... anyways, they are creeping up here and there unfortunately.. haven't heard about any "wild" RES around here in a long time though.. may of been somebody locally that let the turtle go that summer, who knows...

Bristen.

[Removed_2815]

Doug:
There's something about it hiding behind those few blades of grass that makes it look sinister :)

Here's the devil himself...
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rbolton1/Folder/Evil%20Snapper.jpg
He was actually pretty friendly, until I took him out of the lake...
Ryan

[Cake]

He was actually pretty friendly, until I took him out of the lake...

lol.........It amazing how they are so calm in the water, just lazely swimming around, but once you grab em and pull em out of the water, they get that mouth open, and start snapping.

Fantaistic pics by the way guys. But you still cant beat Ryan's Blanding's pic. That one is sweet

[wetlander]

What was the weight of that monster? Its head looks large enough to swallow my fist.

[Removed_2815]

He was one of the largest Snapping turtles I've ever photographed. I didn't weigh him but I am comfortable with estimating his weight at 30+lbs. I've handled plenty of large turtles and then weighed them so my best guesses are sometimes pretty accurate.
Cheers,
Ryan