Making a living from ball morphs?

[csolis]

hey everyone, I just finished reading a post on ks.com ball python forum where someone asked if one can make a living from breeding ball python morphs and it had alot of good replies, mostly from Mr. Favelle, just wondering what everybodies thoughts on the subject here on ssnakess.com are. By the way jeff I agreed with everything you said, I too don't see how you can lose money as long as you know what your doing, unless everything dies on you, wish should'nt happen if you KNOW what your doing (unless of course it dies from something not related to the husbandry of the snake).

[Tim_Cranwill]

I think it's very possible under the right circumstances, i.e., the right animals, the right business sense, the right business practices, the right business plan and etc.... oops, did I mention the word business when talking about animals? :( I suppose I will be shunned now! :D lol

[csolis]

I've talked to some people that think that making money off breeding reptiles is so wrong. Whats wrong with it? The way I think about it is I would be doing this even if I was'nt going making any money off it. I'm sure everyone here keeps reptiles because they enjoy it, why not get paid for doing something you enjoy? I think its ok as long as you don't forget why you got into it in the first place and the animals don't suffer b/c you have put the money before their health and well being. Ball python morphs among others, offer an opportunity for those that want to pursue it, a chance to turn their much loved hobby into a carreer. Just my opinion.

[Tim_Cranwill]

I agree! :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

I'm with Crannie and Csolis all the way! :)

[tdherper]

If one was considering getting into the business, had the means and opportunity(my wife is great), would you recommend and/or encourage someone to get an unrelated pair of pastel BPs as a good start up project? Why or why not? Thanks for your time...

[VI Reptiles]

You dont need a pair. You would want 1 male pastel and a couple females, but thats just what I would do!


Thanks

[csolis]

Im not talking from experience, cause I have none (yet!) but I would say say a pastel is a great start. I don't think you would need pair though. Buy a male pastel and breed to a few normal females. The pastel is also a great morph to purchase cause it could combined with almost any other morph out there. Just a quick guestion about the Mojave. I would of thought that since they hatched a lucy from a mojave x mojave pairing, that the prices would go up, but i still see them as low as $10,000 in the US,why? a plati is going for $45,000 and they both make a lucy?

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Why not start with a pair of pastels? And a few normal females to boot? Supers(1/8th or 1/16th chance, cant remember), pastels and normals all in one shot! That would be nice! Though starting with just normal females is great aswell.

C.

[Darren179]

I have no problem with people making money off of it but I think they should have a genuine interest in the hobby before trying to profit off it.

[thunder]

supers, from a pastel to pastel breeding, are a 1 in 4 chance.

[pythonmdk]

I have to admit befor I had any experience with balls I was always against them, up until 2 years ago I had no interest, my buddy pete got in to them and I kinda fell in love with his, after that and looking in to the trends to see balls have probably the best future I decided to grab a pair of females who I totally love. The only balls morphs that attracted me where pieds and albinos, my friends into albinos so I though I'd go after pieds. I'm getting my first het pied in the next few weeks paul miles from boa barn, then after a while I would love to get a spiders and posibbly some orange ghosts in order to make the most beautiful morph the hypo spider!@!! Maybe a few pastels down the line@!!! since this I have really wanted to make a living off of breeding, just to be safe I will stick with my paramedics until I know for sure I can do it but if posssible I would love to make a living at my favortit thing other then my interest in saving live, I figure If I never make it as a breeder, at least I will have a great hobby and have a job that makes a difference and enough cash to support my habit(reptiles and inverts, and other animals TOO!) Animals are a way of life not a way of living!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~John

[CamHanna]

Where does all the money come from?

From new breeders who are recruited by old breeders. These new folks pay for the snakes from their own pockets, hoping that they can bring some more new folks to the hobby, folks who are naive enough to slave away at their real job, hoping against hope that they can make it big in the ball market. But without a constant stream of new hobbyist there is nothing to support such an extravagant market, no new money will come into the hobby to repay the investments of newly established hobbyist. Old investors profit only when new investors are recruited. That a pyramid scheme my friends.

I would pay $100 for a normal ball python. To me that's a good price. What's a mojave worth to me? Maybe four times that, but not much more for just for the novelty. I find it hard to believe that there are people out there willing to work 4000 hours so they can buy one snake, unless of course, they are not buying a snake, but a chance to sell a snake to someone else who’s willing to put in 4000 hours. Sooner or later there wont be anyone left who will to pay so much for a pet. Essentially that’s what these animals are, a good lookin’ pet snake that some ones decided to sell for more money. They have no solid value, they are nothing more than a pet with a bigger price tag. They are no more difficult or expensive to maintain, breed or feed than a normal snake, why should they cost 400 times more?

That said, I believe that if you can run your business well, breed successfully and sell snakes there’s no reason you can't buy a new house and a car and a TV and what ever else you want. I'm making plans get into the 'business' my self, but am not gullible enough to believe that I will inevitably 'strike it rich' simply because my snakes are yellow and white. But I can think of a million chaps who have. Like anything else I think if you work hard and make good decisions then there's no reason you can't succeed.

My opinions, nothing more. Just thought I'd stir the pot.

Good Luck to Y'all.

Cam

[Tim_Cranwill]

Well, that's a nice outlook on it... NOT! Don't hold back. Tell us how you REALLY feel! lol

Sorry dude, they are worth 400x more because of "Supply and Demand". Period. Whether or not you like it, that's the way it is.

Pyramid scheme? Give me a friggin' break! LOL :D If I sold a few snakes to "Joe Blow" last year and he is going to breed them this srping, does he owe me a single red cent from the babies he sells? I wish! :D

Now THAT is a pyramid scheme. Nice try though! LOL! :D :p

I think you're being just a little too harsh, man. Why would it be anything but a good thing if I can make a living doing what I enjoy? Am I hurting anyone? Nope. Am I providing people with a quality animal? I sure hope so! ;) Am I breaking any laws? Not that I am aware of.

Sounds like a good deal to me! ;)

And who said ANYTHING about striking it rich???

[malaysianbloods]

Personally I think that it would be great to beable to make a living off of breeding reptiles.

Qouted by: Camhanna
"Sooner or later there wont be anyone left who will to pay so much for a pet. Essentially that’s what these animals are, a good lookin’ pet snake that some ones decided to sell for more money."

But the current world population is at just over 6 billion people and is constintly increasing and is eastimated to be at over 9 billion people by 2050. So at this rate I don't think there will ever be a point where there will be no one left to buy them and they will be just a good looking pet.So I think that it is a good idea.
But then again thats just my opinion.

[CamHanna]

Good points fella's. Really, I just feel argumentative.

While business is an important part of the hobby, it is certainly not the entirety by any means. There are no doubt thousands of people wanting to buy and breed ball pythons. These people could try to make a living at anything, but they choose ball pythons because they genuinely enjoy their hobby.

Whether or not the market that these hobbyists cater to is sustainable or not could be open to debate. However, outside of herpetoculture, there are many examples of similar hobbies that have demonstrated considerable endurance. Koi for example. Koi have been bred in captivity for centuries and the koi hobby still thrives today, fueled by new morphs, new hobbyists and by the pure and simple joy that people find in keeping their fish.

As long as there are people who enjoy the hobby there will be a market. And as long as there is a market the business end of the hobby can thrive. I'm sure we all wish we could buy $400 mojaves but that is simply not the reality. And as far as I can see it won't be.

Cam

[tdherper]

I guess since I jumped in and posted under "making a living" post, the responses are appropriate. I just wondered if a 1.1 pastel BP project would be something to get into as an experienced keeper of reptiles whose never bred for profit. I did not mean to make a living off this, just expand my collection with extra funds, and hey who's kidding, spend some of the cash on myself, wink,wink
I find these animals beautiful and interesting, and if I'm willing at 35 yrs old to blow 4 grand on pastel BPs, surely there's a market out there to be serviced when one successfully breeds these animals.
Thanks for your thoughts...

[Vengeance]

Cam

But this is the part you’re missing; these new morphs coming out every year are so expensive because of the rarity to them. Your making it out like the people buying these morps are people who are putting these snakes in cages in their living room and having their friends come over to admire their new designer morph ball python. This isn't really the case, the high end morphs are sold to other breeders, who breed the snakes and sell them to other breeders, who breed and sell the snakes to other breeders, until a point that the market becomes saturated enough that the supply no longer meets the demand so the price and population stabilize. Not everyone is going to strike it rich and find the next new morph and most people won't be able to quit their day job and breed ball pythons full time, but as a side project, as an extra 40 - 50K tax free a year on top of a regular salary, that is definitely obtainable. I know that breeding full time does take some luck and allot of space, time and experience and it would be nice but I don't think I will get to that point.

I've started with 1.2 100% het Albinos, I think by the time I'm ready to take my snakes to market it will be 2 - 3 years down the line. First clutch I'm most likely going to hold everything back (unless I end up with a ton of males) in order to increase my breeding stock. Then by next years season (assuming the odds gods are nice to me) I should have some Albinos I'm willing to sell to the general public. I also assume by that time the price of Albinos will have come down a bit, right now they are at $3K CAD, I'm going with assumption they will be closer to 1 - 2K by the time I start selling. So if I am able to produce 20 Albinos and sell them at 1K a pop that is 20K. Also the lower market value of the Albino at that point also opens up a new market. The market of the casual keeper. The casual keeper isn't going to pay $3000 for a pet but for something that is as visually striking as an Albino I can see them putting 1 K into an Albino Ball python, so it really opens up a completely new market. Think about pure breed dogs, can you name a single dog that you can find that is less then $1000?

So for me in the end, I love the animals but as a side business that really doesn't take up a huge amount of time and once the initial setup is complete doesn't take a lot of money to keep it going, it really is a smart option. Do I ever think I'll be able to give up my day job, mabye, many years down the line when I'm close to retirment anyway. But for now as a side buisness I really don't see a bad side to the situation.

Adam

[Markus Jayne]

Let me say this: I am very impressed by the overall maturity and intelligence that exists in this forum. I have always felt that this is a quality place for ball python enthusiasts to come and express their opinion.

Most of the arguments put forth in this thread have been right on except for the pyramid scheme, which Tim debated nicely. And Vengence, you are right on the money with your $1,000 pet theory!

I am making a living at breeding ball pythons. I did have a VERY good job, which I quit on July 29th, 2004. I will be 48 years old next month and have been in ball pythons for just slightly over 4 years.

I had always been interested in snakes from childhood, but for most of my adult life, living in the city, I lost my interest.

It was recindled 4 years ago when my daughter, who is allergic to almost everything with hair, asked for a reptile for a pet. I thought it was a very strange request and remember saying to her, "Who in their right mind would want a reptile as a pet?!"

My next stop was at a local pet store that specialized in reptiles. I asked lots of questions and they said that a snake and in particular, a ball python makes the best pets. They had one on display that was on-hold. I thought it was beautiful. When I held it my childhood memories of snake hunting rushed back to me. My passion, that I had so long ago, had been sparked once again.

Upon further research, mostly on the internet, I decided to purchase my first snake, or should I say, my daughters first ball python. But that was easier said than done. I looked high and low and couldn't find one anywhere. Shipping from the States was out of the question. Who would ship a normal to Canada????

Then I stumbled upon a website in Canada that had a few ball pythons for sale. Their facility was 20 minutes from my home!!!! I took this as a sign as "hey...this was meant to be!".

A few days later I was the proud owner, or should I say my daughter was, of a beautiful female hatchling ball python. Actually I bought a pair. How could I resist? 2 more days past and I had to have another, but this one was mine!

I remember the very first reptile show I attended. The first booth I approached about ball pythons tried to talk me out of them. "The bubble has burst!" he said. "There is no future in ball pythons" he went on to say. However, I was never driven by the remote chance that I would one day making a living at this game. I was simply driven!

It's been four years since then, and I have heard every argument for and against what we do. In this world, there are talkers and there are doers. The talker do just that...talk! The doers are the ones that don't listen to the ney sayers and follow their dreams. And although there may be bumps in the road, you get over them and learn from them and move on. Always forward. I've said this many times. Nothing great is ever accomplished without passion!!!!

In my mind the future is bright in the ball python world. That's why I am now doing this for a living.

And yes, when I decided to start breeding,
I started with one pastel male and a group of normal females when I decided to start breeding.

And you're right Tim...who said anything about getting rich?! But being rich can have many interpretations!

Good luck to all this year and for many years to come!

Sorry for babbling!

Markus

[Tim_Cranwill]

Doing what you love for a living (or even just like) makes you richer than 90% of the population no matter how much money you make! :) There's a lot to be said for happiness in life. It's priceless.

Good points, Mark!

[smeagel]

That was a very good story Markus. It gives me hope that i can make a go of breeding these beatiful animals. Many people i know have said the the same things that were said to many of us in this hobby " are you crazy! " , " why would you want to do that? " , " why are you wasting so much money? ". Aside from the potential to make some money on the side, i love ball pythons. And like everyone is saying, if you can make a bit of money doing something you truely enjoy than no matter what you will find a way to be sucessful.

[Bristen]

Mark, you said you had a "very good job"... you've been breeding for 4 years?? you started with a pastel?? Wow, that's all I have to say...

I think I would like breeding for a living, but I also have a very good job that I'm no sure I could afford to quit (house, car, etc)... I'm a little younger than you though (going to be 31 in February)... Hopefully my first year breeding will go good.. hoping to have a bunch of pastels this year... I did dive in and threw about $5K (probably more) in ball pythons over the last few years.. this includes equipment, animals, rack, etc... so hopefully I'll manage to get some pastels... I'd really like to fall ahead, but if I can only break even, that would really good... then the animals the following year would start making more than just paying bills.. but that remains to be seen.. we'll see how it goes.. I'll keep everybody posted with how it went...

Thanks for your post Markus! You sure give us all hope!!
Bristen.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Indeed Mark, my friend. Being rich can have many many interprestations and degrees of being so. Great post Mark and Crannie as well.

[csolis]

Great post Mark, You have given me and I'm sure many others hope that they can make their dreams come true and do what they love for a living. I think as long as you make smart investments and try not to go bankrupt(which can be easy to do in this hobby,lol!) anyone thats willing and able to do it, can. Thanks to all who responded.

[hhw]

Although the pyramid scheme was a little off the mark, I thought CamHanna's comment about new investor dollars was right on the money. True, there will continue to be new investors and new money coming in, but eventually we will reach the point that supply from existing breeders will exceed the demand of the new investors coming into the hobby. Eventually, morphs will reach a point where they will be sold as pets and not as investments. We're a long ways away from seeing that happen, due to the time it takes to grow up female ball pythons to maturity and small clutches.

One thing I see happening in the near future is more people selling to south of the border; the investor market is much easier to saturate in Canada than in the US, due to its size. This is already happening with pastels, as is reflected by lower prices here.

[Tim_Cranwill]

hhw, just look at corns as an example. They are eaier to breed and FAR more prolific and they still sell. The morph prices aren't even comparable but the market size is.

If balls start popping out clutches of 30 in the next few years, maybe there will be some long term concers to look at but until then, the market will be pretty stable for the most part. Things just happen a lot slower in the ball world. Not as slow as some snakes (5 year ramp up for new breeding stock) but slower than a lot of them. :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

This is already happening with pastels, as is reflected by lower prices here.


Lower prices here? Really? They go in the States routinely for $750-$900. I haven't sold a single one here for less than $1500 Cdn in the last 2 season. Even with the crrency exchange, that still makes Pastels much much more expensive in Canada. I'm just curious as to what you were basing these prices on?

[Andy_G]

To me, people should do what makes them happy, don't do something just for the money, and take care of the animals properly while you are doing it. I also feel most of the big names in Canada and the U.S. are doing what they want to do and shouldn't be the least bit ashamed of making a living out of it. I commend them and hope that some day I myself can reach that level.

Edited for spelling.

[dave68]

I've only got one pair of normals, and I still breed them every year just because I love baby balls! For me it has very little to do with how much money I can make, but the satisfaction of producing the little buggers!! Not to say I wouldn't want a morph project, I just can't afford the ones I really want at the moment. I also have a very small four year old supposedly het albino female that I would love to prove out, but she has a lot of weight to gain before I even ask someone for a breeding loan of an albino male! I think that most of the enjoyment of our hobby is in the thinking and planning and researching of the animals we love!!

Dave

[hhw]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Lower prices here? Really? They go in the States routinely for $750-$900. I haven't sold a single one here for less than $1500 Cdn in the last 2 season. Even with the crrency exchange, that still makes Pastels much much more expensive in Canada. I'm just curious as to what you were basing these prices on?

Ads from here and on KS.

From what I see posted, people usually ask for about $1200USD in the US. I don't believe I've seen any listed for less than $900 there, but feel free to point me in the direction of any.

As for Canada, from what I can see $1500 is the higher end of pricing, with the average somewhere between $1200 and $1300, and the lowest asking price I've seen being $1,050.

[Skinnychondro]

When I first started collecting I had never thought of breeding or even selling reptiles. But because of the vast info (good and bad) online. I learned very quickly that I could actually get my guys to breed and sell the babies.
At first I bred Chameleons and I made enough to start a bank account just for my herps. I would use all the money I made and put it into other projects and making my current projects bigger and better.
Then I got a pair of crested geckos. I paid a lot back then to get a fire morph and a high yellow to start a new project. Now you can get those same morphs for less than half of what I paid. But, it didn't bother me, because I loved breeding them and having that feeling of accomplishment.
Now I've started a new project with gtps. I have loved this snake for years, but never imagined myself paying $1000 for one. Through breeding and selling I can now afford to get the snake I have always dreamed of owning. (I know this is the bp forum, but I come here all the time. I love bps)...
I feel this is my ultimate goal now. To successfully breed gtps. I don't want to make a living, but I think with some dedication and a little luck I can support my habit well into the future.
I honestly feel anyone who is dedicated and has a lot of patience can be successful. I know from being on this forum and many others that there is a ton of dedicated people out there who simply love these animals and want to see a strong and healthy market.
Ok I think I'm done.
Cheers
Jamie

[David Kwok]

http://www.tulipsandbears.com/tulip.htm

They teach you history in school from a very early age b/c "History tends to R_p__t itself" (Micro or Macro)

I wouldn't be quiting your day jobs as of yet :)
In fact, I just took on a day job and I love it there.

David Kwok
AKA the forever optimist ;)

P.S. guess what I bought myself for Xmas?
-A $700 dishwasher from Sears to wash all my waterbowls!

P.P.S. "Censureship is your friend, flattery is your enemy" -Sun Tzu