Regurge!! Help!!

[Lioness]

hey..as you all have probably already read..i recently found my lost snake. and i gave it a pinky last night that it ate..well this morning i checked up on my snakey and it was coiled up on the warm side of the tank under a hide...which is pretty normal. when i went to check on him again to see if he poopoo-ed yet i saw that he threw the pinky back up. im not sure what the problem is..and im not sure if i should give him another pinky to eat.
the temp in the tank is about 80F. PLEASE HELP WITH ANY INFO...THANKS!!

[Lioness]

added note... i think Mirchie is also in shed..could this be the cause or reason??

[Removed_2815]

I really don't advocate the keeping of wild animals, and that is why I didn't offer my advice in your previous post. As soon as you mentioned that you were going to feed him the day that you found him I knew a regurge was imminent. You've got a lot of learning ahead of you, and now that the snake's life is in danger, I'll put my wild collection opinions aside and offer my advice.

First, DO NOT OFFER HIM ANOTHER MOUSE TO EAT. If you had searched "regurge" or "regurgitation" on any forum here you would know that this is not how you should handle the situation. Regurgitation is so unbelievably detrimental to a snake's health that he must be left alone to recuperate. Regurgitation not only expels a lot of precious digestive juices (that need time to replenish) but it also leads to minor tears and trauma to the oesophagus and the stomach lining. The snake must be left alone to heal. Feeding him again will only cause another regurge, and so the cycle of regurgitation syndrome begins - with the snake getting successfully weaker until he dies.

You need to make sure that all your temperatures are correct (perhaps you could give us the specs on your husbandry) and leave the snake alone, with plenty of hiding places, for 10 - 14 days. Do not bother him during this period. After the recovery period is over you have to feed a very small prey item. I do not know the size of your snake but "small" can be anywhere from a small pink mouse to just the pinkie’s head.

Perhaps, since it is wild caught, it is merely so full of pathogens and this is why it is regurging.
Anyway, good luck, it's a hard lesson to learn but keep researching and you'll do fine, hopefully not at the expense of the snake.
Best,
Ryan

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Lioness
added note... i think Mirchie is also in shed..could this be the cause or reason??
Why would you feed if you suspected ecdysis? Just wondering if you've read any care information on corn snakes? You should pick up Kathy Love's Corn Snake Manual ASAP!!
Ryan

[ydnic]

I thought she found it in her house lost- I didn`t read anywhere that it was wild caught....

Most people that I know and most of what I read on here and what I practice includes offering durning shed - which really isn`t a huge deal Ryan

As far as feeding the day she found it - its probably because it was lost in her house for some time and she figured it was hungry - honest mistake

[Brad C]

I feed all my snakes when there in shed and never had any problems lol they either eat or dont.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by ydnic
I thought she found it in her house lost- I didn`t read anywhere that it was wild caught....

Originally posted by Lioness
we thought about "keeping wild animals in the wild"..but it was so small and we didnt see any other snakes anywhere..and i kind of felt bad just leaving it there.
It is wild caught :rolleyes:

Originally posted by ydnic
Most people that I know and most of what I read on here and what I practice includes offering durning shed - which really isn`t a huge deal Ryan
For sensitive species, or wild caught animals that have spent the last few days with no heat source, yes, it can be a huge deal - as we have just seen.

[Vengeance]

Ydnic

If you read the previous posts of Lioness you would see the thread where she posted that she captured the animal from out of the Wild and kept it.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61315

[ydnic]

LOL - see I told you I missed that part about it being wild caught Ryan

I`m still not sure it had anything to do with it being in shed - as I said I have been feeding for years and if they take during shed no harm no foul. I think it had more to do with being free roam in the house for a while and then getting caught and thrown in a cage. It was most likely very stressed at the entire situation and that is why it reguratated. More likely than the shedding reason anyways.
Lioness I am sure if you leave it for 2 weeks and let it settle it will take pinkies no problem again.

I usually give 2 weeks when I get a new snake just because of the stress involved in a move - nevermind a capture

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by ydnic

Most people that I know and most of what I read on here and what I practice includes offering during shed - which really isn`t a huge deal Ryan


Came up with this after an approx. 30 second long internet search:
Regurgitation can be caused by too low temperatures, feeding during shedding, or bacterial infection.
From here (http://www.moreptiles.com/health%20concerns.htm).

Feeding during ecdysis does not necessarily guarantee a regurg, but we're talking about a wild caught animal here whose health has been compromised - not a CB healthy adult.
The fact is, there is a greater risk of regurgitation in all snake species if fed during ecdysis, and any significant amount of research time would have uncovered this tidbit of information (anecdotal evidence aside) - last statement was directed to the original poster, and not Cindy...

Ryan

[ydnic]

Okay Ryan - thanx for the proof

I am just stating my actaul experiance not words on a webpage

I didn`t say that it definately wasn`t because it was shedding I just said my opinion on the situation

Thanx for the information you posted though i`m sure it is helpful

:)

[Removed_2815]

The experience you speak of is anecdotal, that's why I mentioned its exclusion. My grandfather has smoked a pack of cigarettes a day since he was a child, and he's now 90 years old and going strong. Is this proof that smoking has no negative health consequences? No. What I have stated as proof is purely anecdotal and amounts to absolutely squat...

We don't know this snake, it may have regurged even if it hadn't just been lost for a few days, or it may not have. Or it may have regurged purely because it was in shed. The original poster had asked if this was a possibility and I replied telling her that yes, it sure is a possibility.
I, too, have never had a corn regurgitate due to being in shed, but again, a higher proportion of regurgitations have occurred in many people's collections simply because the snake was fed during shed. That's really all there is to it...

Ryan

[Lioness]

thanks to ryan and cindy for all of your help and information.

the temps that i have it at are from 75(on the cool side)-80(on the warm) degrees F.
and i think cindy is right..i think that the stress of being around the house..and hurting its tail..and then being found and put into a tank is quite stressful. he didnt grab the pinky right away like he did before when i fed him (this was his second feed with me)..instead he just tasted, smelled, and nipped at it. i didnt want to force him..so i just left the pinky in a container in his tank.
i also dont think its a matter of minimum space..because he is about 1 1/2ft. long and the tank is about a 15 or 20 gallon..(not really sure..it was given to me)

btw..when i went to the vet and i told her that i found the snake in my back patio..she said that there is no real danger to me or the snake as long as it is cared for properly. she asked me about eating habits in the past, temperment, etc. and said that the snake seemed pretty healthy. also that it is not uncommon for people to catch or find they're snakes and keep them and breed them (i dont plan on breeding mine..)
if she had told me differently..for example tell me that it will be a threat to the animal's life to keep it in captivity..then i would've let him go right away.

am i a selfish or cruel person to find a baby cornsnake living behind an old washing machine in my patio and keep it?
either way..i will give it all the time it needs to recuperate.
oh..btw..i was so worried thats why i hurried on here and posted this..after i had a chance to clean the tank and put a sheet over it i came up and did a few searches.

PS. So if it is likely for a snake to regurge while it is in shed..should it not be fed until the skin comes off?
sorry to seem like an amature..but i kind of am one.
and ryan thank you for putting ur opinions to the side to help me and my snake..i really appreciate it.
i will keep everyone posted on the latest.

thanks again!
Regards,
Sonia

[Lioness]

btw.. ryan u say u are strictly against wild caught snakes..i was just wondering why? i mean besides the obvious parasites, agressive behavior, etc.
aren't CB's wild caught somewhere down the line?? where else would they're parents, grand-parents, or great grand-parents come from??
please help me understand why..just for my own information.
THANK YOU!!

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Lioness
after i had a chance to clean the tank and put a sheet over it i came up and did a few searches.
Just curious, what have you got on top of the tank to secure it?
Ryan

[Lioness]

Originally posted by RMBolton
Just curious, what have you got on top of the tank to secure it?
Ryan
a screen top with clips to hold it down.

i put the sheet over the tank so that the snake can feel a bit more secure.

[marisa]

Just wanted to add....

While most of my snakes have no problem eating during a shed, I have had a female corn who is fed in her shed or near her shed would regurg everytime. Took me three times to figure it out. Otherwise, she was perfectly healthy.

Nowadays I just don't offer. There isn't really a point as one missed meal isn't a big deal and I'd rather avoid that terrible smell! :D

Marisa

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Lioness
btw.. ryan u say u are strictly against wild caught snakes..i was just wondering why? i mean besides the obvious parasites, agressive behavior, etc.
aren't CB's wild caught somewhere down the line?? where else would they're parents, grand-parents, or great grand-parents come from??
please help me understand why..just for my own information.
THANK YOU!!
Why deplete natural populations by stealing from the wild when you can purchase a CB normal corn snake for $10? Yes, every CB animal will have a WC ancestor, but I absolutely hate this argument. There is no basis to this argument, especially when we're talking about corn snakes. At times, it may be advantageous to take from the wild in order to establish a species in captivity. But there is already so much genetic diversity in CB corn snakes and they are so readily available that there is simply no reasonable justification for taking one from the wild.
A great number of threatened species are at risk because of the pet trade (Wood turtles come to mind) and I am sure, at one point, they were as common as corn snakes in some areas of their range. Now, due to over-collection, they are at risk. Granted, corn snakes are not currently at risk throughout most of their range, but neither were Wood turtles at one point. See what I'm getting at?
Let's prevent natural populations from becoming threatened before it becomes a problem. Spend the $10 and get a quality CB animal without depleting natural populations.

You shouldn't feel sorry and anthropomorphize the little, lonely corn snake out on the patio. He doesn't need any help from us, he should be left alone.
Just my humble opinion... But in the end, it is up to you and I shouldn't have any say in what you choose to do.

Ryan

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Lioness
a screen top with clips to hold it down.

i put the sheet over the tank so that the snake can feel a bit more secure.
Good :thumbsup:

[Lioness]

i understand ur point of view..i can see how innocent collections can lead to the species being threatened.
but one more quick question..
do u think that its possible to release some CBs if wild corns..or any other species..was to become scarce?
just wondering..

[Removed_2815]

And Lioness, I do applaude your efforts to come on here and ask questions and learn. It's sometimes hard for us (me) to reply without seeming like we're (I'm) lecturing you.
Just tell me to shut up and stick to the facts if my replies ever seem too personal ;)
Ryan

[Lioness]

Originally posted by RMBolton
Good :thumbsup:

YAAY!! i got a positive reply from you..lol
for a second there i thought u hated my guts..:( :rolleyes: o>

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Lioness
do u think that its possible to release some CBs if wild corns..or any other species..was to become scarce?
just wondering..
No, this is not a good idea, and is illegal in most areas for a multitude of biological reasons from genetics to pathogenesis.
Ryan

[peterm15]

personally im against all wild cought animals..... doesnt mean ill never get one just its noy my preference.... i dont believe in up routing animals from there home and putting them in a tank... its not too bad cause its a baby, they havent lived long so they can adapt quite quickly. but when you say
but it was so small and we didnt see any other snakes anywhere. it makes me think...

you may be a softie;) but snakes are solitary... it was alone cause it wanted to be...

a wild cought that has bred and had babies in captivity is still a wild cought but the babies arent there captive bread... they know no difference between there cage and the wild... there cage is there home... just like it wouldnt be fair to realese a cb into the wild... i feel the same about that...

you decided to keep it and i respect that.. just please make sure you give it the best home you possibly can... get a book and read it cover to cover and keep asking questions cause thats how youll learn...

your snake still have a great deal of adjusting to do so dont give up.. it will eventually come around... and then be a pet... just remember that it is a wc and it will remain so... so you may get nipped and stuff... :)

well i hope you good luck and no your not cruel... your a softy...;)...
just bext time maybe look into a cb first... lol...

good luck.. ttly

[Lioness]

Originally posted by RMBolton
And Lioness, I do applaude your efforts to come on here and ask questions and learn. It's sometimes hard for us (me) to reply without seeming like we're (I'm) lecturing you.
Just tell me to shut up and stick to the facts if my replies ever seem too personal ;)
Ryan

its ok..im a firm believer in "opinions are like a*****s..everyone has one.." lol
and its not like ur beliefs are b*s*..they make sense..and u have every right to voice them.
i appreciate the honesty..even if it seems harsh..its only to help
THANKS!! ;)

[sidewinder]

If you have a sheet over the tank what are you using for heat and lite sorce?

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by sidewinder
If you have a sheet over the tank what are you using for heat and lite sorce?
That's a good question, I'm assuming she's using an under-tank heater. The sheet should be fine if she's using an UTH. If it's a thin sheet then ambient light should get in, and that's fine to establish a natural photoperiod. Incandescent lights have little merit as a heat source and do more harm than good (discussion (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60998)).
Sonia, it might be a good idea to give us a complete run down of your husbandry, i.e. how often you plan to feed, what you plan to feed, what you're using for substrate, what you're using as a heat source, etc. etc. Anything you can think of, just to prevent any future complications. Because, if you're going to keep a WC snake, I'd rather see it become a fulfilling pet as opposed to just another dead mistake.
Cheers,
Ryan
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rbolton1/Folder/Corn1a.jpg

[Lioness]

Originally posted by sidewinder
If you have a sheet over the tank what are you using for heat and lite sorce?

my heat source is a reptile heating pad that i have under the tank. i didnt stick it to the tank cus BoidKeeper told me its not a very good idea on another thread.

and peterm15 your soo right...im a huge softy..especially when it comes to animals. whether its dog, cat, pig, bird, or snake..lol
and i am trying to give it the best home possible..im trying to make it as natural and roomy as possible. when its an adult i plan on keeping it in a 35-40gal..so it has more than enough room.;)

and RMBolton..good point! it prolly wouldnt make much sense at all..:rolleyes:

[Lioness]

ok..this is how my snake is kept

15-20 gal glass tank (not sure of size exactly..but i can post a pic later to show)

paper towel at the bottom of the tank and green carpet (i think its called astro turf..correct me if im wrong please) on top of the paper towl. i wanted to put aspen as substrate but i read that its not very convenient..and its hard to clean..AND the snake can swallow it by accident.

then i have one large water bowl with fresh water at all times

2 trees for it to climb

some large wood chips as a rough surface to help with shedding..i have these placed in certain spots around the tank.

a rock hide on the cool side..near the water bowl

another hide on the warm side..(the warm side has an extra layer of green carpet so it doest get too hot)

my plans are to feed it once every week..i feed it little pinkies.
i've given it live so far cus they dont sell FT here..but i plan on starting it on FT as soon as i can.

and umm..i think i already mentioned the temps..
sooo..is there anything else im forgetting?

[Lioness]

Originally posted by RMBolton
I'd rather see it become a fulfilling pet as opposed to just another dead mistake.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~rbolton1/Folder/Corn1a.jpg

i strongly agree..thank you for your patience, guidance, and information.
PS. that looks like my snake exactly..well, just a lil brighter since mine has that grey-ish haze over it.

[Removed_2815]

Everything sounds good to me. I do use aspen for all of my snakes - always have and always will. It is the ideal natural substrate because it is easy to clean (simple spot cleaning) and allows the snake some security should it choose to bury. The snake cannot ingest any so long as you feed outside of the enclosure. You can see from my pic that I feed my snakes in a little feeding container and then I put them back in the enclosure.
However, your choice of substrate is good as well since it will allow for minimal stress during feeding (you can feed the snake in the enclosure) and is sanitary (provided you clean often). Aspen is mainly for people who want that aesthetically pleasing look. Click here (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=291748&sortby=&sortorder=) and you can read some of the posts about aspen.

I would definitely recommend getting the snake on f/t as soon as possible. It isn't a problem feeding live now, because the pinkie does not pose any serious risk. However, you don't want an adult that only feeds on live because the prey can seriously injure the snake.

Good luck,
Ryan

[Lioness]

yea i wanted to switch over to aspen not only cus it looks better..but the snake will feel much more at home. i dont too much mind the extra time to clean..as long as my snake isnt stressed. i feed in a seperate container also..so i guess ingestion isnt that big of a risk.
and since u mentioned stressing the snake during feeds..i wanted to know if i should leave the snake in its critter keeper (where i feed it) until it digests the food completely..or pick it up after its done eating and place it in its tank?? what is easier for the snake to deal with?

and yea ive seen pics of snakes that have been hurt by live fuzzies and adult mice..and i would be darned if they hurt my snake :mad: !!

[paulsreef]

Ryan, If you saw a construction crew widening the highway and they were approaching a section of the shoulder where you recently witnessed a snapping turtle deposit her eggs; would you dig them up and incubate them knowing that they would end up crushed anyways?

Paul.

[sidewinder]

Lioness,
Do you have something in your tank that makes a good hiding place for the snake? Thats a must! That will cut down on most of the stress. Good luck.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Lioness
i wanted to know if i should leave the snake in its critter keeper (where i feed it) until it digests the food completely..or pick it up after its done eating and place it in its tank??
Since it takes the snake a couple days to completely digest a meal, and the snake requires the heat from the UTH in its enclosure to digest, then it wouldn't be a good idea to leave the snake in its feeding enclosure.
In a couple of weeks when it is time to feed (seriously resist the urge to feed sooner or it will regurge again and likely die soon afterwards if the regurg syndrome develops), simply put the very small prey item in the feeding enclosure and then gently put the snake in. You can put a piece of material over the feeding enclosure to make it dark and more secure, or you can put paper towel in the feeding enclosure and put the pink mouse under that. Check the snake in a half hour or so, hopefully the mouse will be gone. Gently lift the snake out and put it back in the permanent enclosure, be careful not to get bitten as the snake is in feeding mode. Do not bother the snake for at least 4-5 days. Sometimes just the act of lifting a hide to see if the snake regurged is enough to make the snake regurge.
If the snake has not regurged then feed again after it has been a week or so since you fed the last mouse. Then resume the normal one mouse every 4-6 days schedule and you should be back on track.
Ryan

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by paulsreef
Ryan, If you saw a construction crew widening the highway and they were approaching a section of the shoulder where you recently witnessed a snapping turtle deposit her eggs; would you dig them up and incubate them knowing that they would end up crushed anyways?

Paul.
I think you're trying to trip me up in circular logic ;) With regards to my comment about them not needing any help from us. You want me to say yes.
I made that remark in order to reiterate that these are wild animals and they don't need help from us to survive (in a world where we have not destroyed their habitat). Your scenario creates a landscape where humans are destroying the habitat, in which case, yes, they do require our help to survive. However, not widening the highway is the correct answer.
Ryan

[Lioness]

Originally posted by sidewinder
Lioness,
Do you have something in your tank that makes a good hiding place for the snake? Thats a must! That will cut down on most of the stress. Good luck.

yes..i have two hides.. read my other post about 8 up.

and thanks for that informative answer ryan!
luckily he hasnt snapped at me yet..even tho i know that doesnt mean it wont happen.
i read somewhere that i should just cover the tank with a sheet for a couple of days so he can digest properly.
maybe when i get the aspen it will be able to burrow in it when it wants/needs.:)
thanks again

[paulsreef]

Ryan,

I wasn't trying to trip you up. I actually saved snapper eggs, and set them free once they hatched.
This was long before I knew any other herpers, that could advise me. But now I have somewhere to go for opinions and advise. Sorry for bringing this up in a corn snake forum. Paul.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by paulsreef
Ryan,

I wasn't trying to trip you up. I actually saved snapper eggs, and set them free once they hatched.
This was long before I knew any other herpers, that could advise me. But now I have somewhere to go for opinions and advise. Sorry for bringing this up in a corn snake forum. Paul.
Ha ha ha, my apologies Paul - I really have to learn that not everyone has an ulterior motive on here. I thought for sure you were trying to get me to fall back on something I said earlier. What a dork I am.
Anyway, then to answer your question, yes, I would make an attempt to save the nest. I would do this by relocating it however, as opposed to incubating the eggs myself (releasing anything into the wild has its inherent risks, if strict quarantine measures are not put into place). See, I do believe that animals do not need our help to survive, however, if we have done something to alter their habitat that would put them at risk then they do need our help. But it's weird to say it like that; what they really need is for us not to put them in danger in the first place.
Good job saving the nest!
Cheers,
Ryan