frosted?

[oscar]

i've recently seen 'frosted' corns at 2 different sites. one @ K & N Reptiles and one at some breeders site out of new orleans i believe. they are really nice looking but i think i read that they were some sort of hybrid. does anyone else know much about this?

if not, what morphs are used to get them or are they just from selective breeding?

[vanderkm]

Frosted corns typically include grey ratsnake in the background. If they are frosted creamsicles then they also have great plains ratsnake. The grey ratsnake genetics introduces the frosting effect in the saddle color that enhances the pale center of the saddle. There may be some increased overally body size as well from the grey ratsnake background.

The 'frosting' effect also occurs in lines of corns that are reported to be pure corn, but is less intense than that seem in those that are hybrids,

hope that helps,

mary v.

[oscar]

ok then that leads to me to ask a question that i've thought about before.....

i know some people are dead set against hybrids and i can understand that reasoning, but what do they think of the creamsicles? are they acceptable? would a frosted corn be accepted as a creamsicle seems to be?

lastly, shouldnt any breeder who sells these post that its a hybrid or would it be assumed as common knowledge?

btw thanks mary :)

[vanderkm]

Creamsicles are more common than frosted corns and the parent species great plains ratsnakes (GPRats) have been considered more closely related to corns (were sub-species of the same species til recently) than grey ratsnakes, which have been accepted as a very distinct species from corns for a long time. Because corns and GPRats were part of the same species for a while, their offspring (creamsicles, rootbeers, etc) were considered intergrades (cross within a species) rather than hybrids (cross between species) - and the different species designation is not even fully accepted by taxonomists now.

I don't think anyone concerned about purity in corns would consider a creamsicle a pure corn. They were clearly developed as a cross to introduce specific color variability into corns. Anyone who objects to hybrids would find a creamsicle as objectionable as a frosted corn. I happen to prefer and focus on breeding creamsicles, so obviously it doesn't bother me. My limited experience with GPRats, corns and the first generation crosses leads me to support the position that they are two distinct species - the adults may look alike, but the GPRat is not just a grey colored corn, in my opinion.

I completely agree that anyone producing these intergrades or hybrids should, without fail, advise anyone asking about their snakes that these are not pure corns. When posting pics or just discussing them, it is often assumed to be common knowledge, but certainly when they are posted or offered for sale it should be made clear. There are rising controversies in corn genetics about the possibility of frosted corn hybrids being behind some of the new genetic variants and it is virtually impossible to sort out after the fact. Even those lines that have been kept meticulously pure for generations may contain unknown crosses, but in my opinion, it is important to represent the animals you produce, promote or offer for sale as accurately as possible.

mary v.

[Simon]

I 100% agree with mary here.

Personally I don't like hybrids too much.
But for some stupid/weird reason I do actually own a pair of them. They're both very nice looking snakes, plus they produce snow frosted creamsicles too.

Sometimes I just feel weird about myself because on one hand I totally disagree with hybrid/intergrades but yet at the same time I am keeping a pair of frosted creamsicles.

I guess since these were produced and they look so beautiful to me that I can accept them. The only thing that I wouldn't do is to put either one of them to any of my corn snake line.

Also selling them out as corn x rat snake combination and letting all the buyers know that these are not pure corns and have rat snake genes in there is a very important part.

In my opinion, I think that the corns already have more than enough genes to mess around with already, so why bother adding more genes to it and trying to figure things out later on down the road.

Just to name a few of the corn genes, amel, anery a, anery b, hypo a, hypo b, hypo c, hypo d, lavender, carmael, bloodred, motely, bloodred...and the list goes on.......so that is why I don't really bother putting other genes into the gene pool.

If I can accept breeding rats with corns....maybe later on in life I can breed my rhino rat snakes to my corns....LOL! Corns with horns~

Anyways back to the original topic,
I think that any breeder selling these frosted creamsicles or creamsicles SHOULD provide this information to people that these are actually hybrids. You never know if a newbie comes along and just buys these snakes and thinks that they're actually pure corns and thus breed it to a real 'pure' corn thus ruining the corn gene pool. Plus like Mary said before, some pure corns did come with the frosted looks. So sometimes its really hard to differentiate the hybrid or 'pure' corns by just the looks.

Getting them from reputable breeders is the best bet for getting a 'pure' corn or hybrid corn~

[gonesnakee]

The term Hybrid doesn't usually apply much in the "Corn world" as long as they are crossed with Ratsnakes most Corn People seem OK with it, but LORD FORBID crossing them to a Kingsnake of any sort, that would be playing God or something LMAO Intergrade OK Hybrid EVIL! IMHO almost all Corns out there have a little something extra to them somewhere along the line, whether people want to agree or not. If we really think that everyone out there was 1000% up front about the genetics for generations & generations of Corns (if they were even aware as stated above), then you folks have much more faith in mankind then I. Corns IMHO are the Mutts of the Ratsnake world Cheers. Mark