Are you for or against hybrids? [Archive]

Invictus

10-25-04, 02:37 PM

I used to be against hybridization, because I figured it wasn't natural. Until I woke up and realized that captivity isn't natural either, and that we are already playing god with these creatures. We're controlling their entire world. Not to mention, I've yet to see one good argument against hybridization except that it's "not natural". Most people are hypocrites anyway... they claim to be against hybrids, but seem to think creamsicle corns, jungle corns, and so on are ok.

I agree with Vanan and Devon though... a great deal of responsibility has to go into it, and you can't just sell it to anyone. I would personally only sell a hybrid to someone who I know will not go hog wild with it and end up selling it to a pet store as a normal corn (or whatever it looks most like).

Edwin

10-25-04, 03:12 PM

Its thanks to hybrids that there are less purebreeds available in the market today.

Many breeders justify crossbreeding by saying that these animals will never be returned to the wild, but what if there is a need to repopulate the species?

Another excuse is that this happens in the wild. That is true, but how frequently does it happen?

As for the pros of crossbreeding, I have yet to hear of one that does not have a monetary gain tied to it.

Just my 2 cents.

Invictus

10-25-04, 03:16 PM

The pros are, you can create some of the coolest looking animals on earth. Bottom line - mother nature wouldn't allow it if it was against mother nature. The fact that it does happen proves that it's not necessarily against her design.

Brock

10-25-04, 03:37 PM

I agree with Ken.

I think in respects to species like some chameleons and arrow frogs, and similarly rare species, there should be (and I know with dart frogs there already is) a disciplined honor for natural blood lines and morphs. With common animals, I don't think it's a big deal as long as you have some respect for the buyer and let them know that it's a hybrid, in which case if you are buying an animal that is said to be pure, but is a hybrid, I can see some negative hits.

When you think of the fact that 99.9% of EVERY species that has existed on this earth is extinct, I don't really see the harm in having a bit of fun with the .1% that's around now. There will always be evolution and new species, however hard you try to play god, nature fights back and usually wins. Look at how much a$$ nature kicked in the Carribean recently.

So yeah, I think specialized species should be kept true to their wild kin, but have fun with the more common things or things you know will be really cool. So I'm for it.

-Brock

concept3

10-25-04, 03:41 PM

I agree with Ken to. It does not bug me if people have hybrid snakes sitting in rubbermaids in their basement lol.

lolaophidia

10-25-04, 06:51 PM

I used to think hybrids were cool. With Corn snakes, pretty much any mix of rat snake, pituophis, or king even was possible. I even kept an intergrade yellow/black rat snake. Now that I'm into more exotic snakes, I'm all about locallity. I want to be able to (if there's enough information) identify the animal by it's natural range coloration and pattern. With most of the animals I'm keeping now (Asian and European Rat snakes), they're only a few generations removed from the wild, so they haven't been crossed with animals from the extremes of their range (probably). I see some of those crazy colored kingsnake/rat snake mixes and think- "wow that's an interesting snake, wonder what the parents looked like?" There's enough variation in the naturally occurring species that I don't feel the need to mix them up just to see what would happen.
With pet snakes of common species, go nuts- but keep great records and be honest about what you've got.

Invictus

10-25-04, 07:05 PM

This is really interesting, it appears that the Canadian herp hobbiest community is not as against hybridization as I originally thought. The reviews seem to be quite mixed.

That said, there are certain animals I would never cross, like GTPs for instance, but I figure with colubrids such as corns, milks and kings, why not? Some of the combinations are mind boggling. Sincorns being my absolute favorite. I mean, look at this and tell me it's not cool to look at:

http://www.prehistoricpets.com/viewimage.asp?type=3&img=chain_king&n1=pp-pyt-103

I think it looks awesome anyway.

Siretsap

10-25-04, 07:24 PM

True invictus, this one is pretty. Anything that looks anery or ghost, I love.

Jeff_Favelle

10-25-04, 07:29 PM

Against interspecific, on the fence for intraspecific.

Tim_Cranwill

10-25-04, 07:47 PM

I’d say I’m on the fence...

Certain crosses bug me, like Angolan/Ball, Diamond/Jungle*** and Corn/Ball (;) j/k).

Some I just don't find too interesting like most of the Elaphe/Lampropeltis and Lampro/Lampro*** ... most colubrid hybrids for that matter and even the giant python crosses.

And some I find quite intriguing like Blood/Ball and Carpet/Chondro crosses.

I am against it in some ways and indifferent in others. That’s why I don’t get involved in the hybrid debates. I don’t see much reason for it besides entertainment but I’m not against it enough to preach to people. I don’t “think” I will ever have a hybrid project but I’m not about to chastise someone else for it.

I say we need another option in this poll! :D

*** = if they are even considered hybrids

Matt

10-25-04, 07:50 PM

against, its just not necessary

Siretsap

10-25-04, 07:56 PM

I am on the fence also. I do not mind if people do make hybrids, as long as they are concious that if they sell these snakes to the public, there is a chance someone will end up breeding it and selling the offsprings as regulars. But then again, in my opinion, as soon as you start breeding your cornsnakes or ball pythons, to accentuate a pattern or color, then this snake is not pure anymore. Conserving the gene pool shouln't only mean keeping the strain of the snake pure, it should mean keeping it intact (not trying to get some albinos or tang albinos...) and also keeping them in the wild.

Really, why would it matter this much if someone does some hybrids, we are keeping them in captivity.

wether it be a hybrid or let's say a snow cornsnake that gets putten back in the wild, both snakes will have some effects on the wild populations in the long run, and I think the wild population wouln't be pure even if it was the snow cornsnake that was put back in it.

JD@reptiles

10-25-04, 08:41 PM

i am just as agianst them as i am morphs or venomoids.

RepTylE

10-25-04, 09:09 PM

For, within reason. I would hate to see alot of breeders running out and picking up animals to make odd pairings but a little variety is still nice. Just think of hydrids as the diet coke of herps.

Andy_G

10-25-04, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by marisa
I have always been a fence sitter, and I still am. When I honestly sit and think about it I can't decide if I think it's wrong or right, but I lean more towards wrong so I voted wrong.

But I am NOT against natural intergrades (Sp) then again we are talking hybrids, not naturally occuring crosses :D ;)

Marisa

Same...:)

Invictus

10-26-04, 09:45 AM

Jordan, you are against morphs?!?!?!?!

vanderkm

10-26-04, 09:50 AM

Like Tim - tend to avoid hybrid debates - I don't think I have the right to tell other people what to do in the hobby and I am just not interested enough in producing weird looking varieties to go through the work required to trick these pairs into breeding.

But if the individual snakes recognize each other and breed willingly withhout manipulation, in my opinion they are flaunting the man-made 'species' distinctions and I have no inhibitions about breeding them together - my justification for my personal cornsnake focus on creamsicles. I do believe in fully educating everyone who buys from me on the background of creamsicles and rootbeers and how mine are created. They used to be 'intergrades' now they are 'hybrids' - when will it change again?

It is interesting that one of the most dramatic 'morphs' in corns to come along in many years - the 'ultra' hypo - that was originally seen as just a morph arising from the wild corns - is now being rumored to be traced back to crosses with grey ratsnakes - similiar to those that created the 'frosted' corns. Amazing to watch the dialogue among 'anti-hybrid' corn breeders who strongly opposed even intergrades before - now that they have these incredible looking animals in their collections! Doubt it will ever be sorted out - are the rumors just to collapse the value of the new morph or are they based in fact - but it is an interesting outcome of human nature.

Unfortunately perhaps, but extending the appeal of herps as pets to the general population has the inevitable result of putting breeding into the hands of people like me - breeders fascinated by moprhs, genetics and manipulation and who essentially domesticate and alter the species - it may be all about preservation to some people, but it is about 'manipulation' to many of us - whatever our motivation - curiosity or $$.

mary v.

djc3674

10-26-04, 10:22 AM

For! I completely agree that it is "not natural" for us to keep snakes in captivity, just as it is "not natural" for snakes to stumble upon dead prey in the wild (but that is a whole diffrent debate in itself). Therefore, I am not against hybrids/morphs. I think some of the animals that are produced are wicked cool to look at. As long as the general health of the snake isn't suffering, then it's okay with me.

Stockwell

10-26-04, 11:11 AM

I'm dead against them! Call me oldschool because I am, but I still consider these animals to be "wildlife". As such I feel its an honor and a priviledge to be pioneering a relatively new field. I feel we have the obligation to propagate them in a way which would be deemed responsible by the scientific community, by naturalists, by academics and by legislators.
Doing otherwise, mixing and matching species, simply to make toys that "look cool" and put money in our pockets, is pretty shallow and just provides more ammunition for those that would argue that wildlife possession and propagation should never be permitted by Joe Public.

RepTylE

10-26-04, 11:50 AM

Any of these hydrid animals would be expensive I would assume so I doubt that proliferation wouldn't be much of a problem so I see little to worry about here.
As far as the scientific community's approval for reptile hobbist activities.........scientific curiosity has made hybrids in other species os if anything it would spark interest not revulsion in my opinion. Proving thatsomething CAN be done is the backbone of science. Deciding if it is right or not is an individual's choice. Like it or not these odd pairings will continue to be done. Not much anyone can do to stop it.

zappaguy

10-26-04, 11:54 AM

also with hybrids you are relying on people to keep proper documentation and pass this on if the animal is sold and or traded and we all know this will not happen so what you get is frankensnakes mixed in with pure strains.

snakeylesnake

10-26-04, 12:24 PM

Against. Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
Cheers
Paul

JD@reptiles

10-26-04, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Invictus
Jordan, you are against morphs?!?!?!?!

Yeah, a lot of them are inbred and quite a few morphs are bred with birth defects that somtimes kills them, or just runs them problems through out there life. somone was telling me a couple years ago there was a problem with albino corns, they were all being inbred and the babies were dieing off.... thats why i am agianst it... dont get me wrong, morphs can be beautiful, but nature can be just as beautiful.

Tim and Julie B

10-26-04, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Against interspecific, on the fence for intraspecific.

Whoa.........fancy smancy!

Everything I wanted to say is in Jordan's post. ^
I like plan old normal reptiles. I like them for what they are not for what I can make them. TB

BoidKeeper

10-26-04, 01:58 PM

I tried to get away from morphs to by getting out of corns because all I wanted to do was creat recipies to make new things. In the end I sold them all and kept my original normal male. Once I sold the corns I bought Emeralds and chondros two the nicest animals out there with out being a morph.
At the same time though I have anery kenyans, looking for amel and I have het for albino balls. So I guess I'm not out of morphs after all.
My favorite snake by far though is still my Hog Island Boa. Naturally one of the best looking snakes there is.
Cheers,
Trevor

MarcB

10-26-04, 02:56 PM

Nice to see this hybrid debate being discussed in a civilized way!

Obviously everyone is intitled to their opinion and lots of important factors are brought to the table...

I would like to question the parties who've mentioned that with a controled hybrid breeding project where offspring are properly labelled and sold as such ;

How would any hydrid breeder insure his animals are well represented once out in the public, lets say a given animal goes around to its fifth keeper and he gets asked, what type of snake is that? this animals now becomes misrepresented and ends up in someone collection to be part of a pure strain breeding project. Oops!

It would be nice to beleive hybridizers properly represent their animals BUT once out of their hands, how can they be properly represented, impossible...

Granted, some hybrids are stunning BUT most are butt ugly! I wonder what happens to all the ugly ones! I personnaly know of this one breeder in Florida, claiming the nice hybrids to have quite the following AND short of being able to give away his ugly hybrids, releases them into the wild!!!!

Not enough WE HUMANS polute the captive gene pool, we also polute the wild as well !?!

Enough of my ranting! Thanks for reading

Invictus

10-26-04, 03:26 PM

Marc, you're absolutely right - that guy who is releasing hybrids into the wild should be shot. To answer your question though, if I did sella hybrid, it would only be to someone who I know for a fact will not sell it. If they wish to say, get 2 of them and breed them, fine. As long as I am confident they would never sell the resulting offspring to the general public. Getting into designer snakes is something that absoltuely SHOULD NOT be done for profit - it should be done more for the "scientific aspect" (sorry Roy) of seeing what the results would be.

MarcB

10-26-04, 03:34 PM

Ken, of all people, I know you would do so BUT most don't have a care in the world once they are out of their hands and that is were lies the bigger problem...

gonesnakee

10-26-04, 03:41 PM

Hybrids are a fact of life folks, I for one can accept reality. Mark

ydnic

10-26-04, 03:43 PM

Really I`m fine with it. I`m fine with people selling them too. I believe that if some one breeds a snake that is appealing to me and I want to buy it so be it.
If you put 2 snakes together and they want to 'be romantic' I don`t see anything really forced there. I mean - yes they probably wouldn`t meet in the wild, but they aren`t wild. And if some one knows what they are doing than good for them. Captive breed reptiles are exactly that.
It really interests me what people can mix. They are all snakes and if compatible - who know what you could come up with.

I agree that when some one wants a 'true' breed it can be frusterating with all these mixed breeds but until there is an A.K.C. for snakes thats pretty much something you have to deal with in the hobby.
Being a hobbiest myself I understand that people have different opinons about eveything down to substrate. But to each their own.
As along as the animals are well taken care of and people are learning new things - I think any kind of hybrid study is great for the industry.

RepTylE

10-26-04, 04:38 PM

It is refreshing to discuss a topic like this without a whole lot of fighting and raving. There are alot of strong opinions here and yet we have so far managed to discuss it rationally. There are points on both sides of the fence here but as is often the case the two sides already have their mind made up. The gap has held fairly firm in votiing so far too. 60/40 at the moment. I am also surprised that it has been this close.

Joe

10-26-04, 04:49 PM

against

ydnic

10-26-04, 04:55 PM

Yeah no kiidding - too bad we can`t discuss everything in this manner?! lol

BOAS_N_PYTHONS

10-26-04, 04:55 PM

TREVOR:

I agreed with KEN and I feel that just about everything living is a form of cross breeding, some are more extent and others much less. Although nature itself has beautiful animals, we as nature' s keepers can improve on this as long as its a positive effect.

Just about any animal, man has thought to use for his own needs has undergone many improvements and defects as well. As long as these animals do not affect nature in the end I agree with hybrids. Look at what we do with dogs, they are so far from the first wolves and yet we keep crossing, and people themselves, are there any pure lines left, lol.....most likey not, so far every culture was once crossed if not many more times.

But as for boids in my case I pretty much try my best to keep the lines as pure as I can on some while the morphs are an on going process for appearance and quality with strong lines involved.

So yes I agree with hybrids, like Martha Stewart would say "its a good thing", lol.

Cya...

Tony

RepTylE

10-26-04, 05:40 PM

lol ydnic, yeah it gets pretty hot in here sometimes

HeatherRose

10-26-04, 05:51 PM

It is refreshing to discuss a topic like this without a whole lot of fighting and raving.

Hehehe, you guys are totally going to jynx it ;)

I'm a fence sitter on this and many topics, hybrids are neat looking, yes, but I just don't feel right about it...the lines between different locales, subspecies, and even species are becoming more and more blurred.

What if the animals do make their way back into the wild? What if zombies take over and eventually, there is a need to repopulate the earth? What if someone makes hybrid babies and sells them as normals, thus corrupting the offspring produced by those babies futher down the line?

Too many what-ifs to justify it, in my opinion...but to each his own, I still think some of the pictures are neat.

-Heather

Invictus

10-26-04, 05:53 PM

I have to say I'm impressed with how civil this thread has stayed as well, especially for something so controversial.

Andy_G

10-26-04, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by BOAS_N_PYTHONS
TREVOR:

like Martha Stewart would say "its a good thing", lol.

Cya...

Tony

LOL!!! What an example Tony!

vanderkm

10-26-04, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by MarcB

..................I would like to question the parties who've mentioned that with a controled hybrid breeding project where offspring are properly labelled and sold as such ;

How would any hydrid breeder insure his animals are well represented once out in the public, lets say a given animal goes around to its fifth keeper and he gets asked, what type of snake is that? this animals now becomes misrepresented and ends up in someone collection to be part of a pure strain breeding project. Oops!

It would be nice to beleive hybridizers properly represent their animals BUT once out of their hands, how can they be properly represented, impossible...
.................

Sorry this reply will be longwinded - but even though this topic has been done before - this thread has been thought provoking -

Marc - this was definitely something I struggled with as part of making a decision to continue with my creamsicles after learning more about the concerns of vetern hobbiests on the issue of hybrids and intergrades. I investigated means of permanent identification such as microchips, marking through scale clipping and even considered culling any indistinguishable individuals that would be the by-products of my breeding plans.

I completely agree with you - there is nothing I can do to insure that the animals I produce are not misrepresented once they are out of my hands. I have no more control of what I sell than any other breeder has over snakes that they sell - their pure snakes could just as readily be used to produce hybrids in the future as my creamsicles could (albeit one generation later!).

I would argue that I am no more accountable for someone misrepresenting the next generation of my creamsicles as pure corns than you would be if someone bought a hondo from you and bred it to an andean milk then sold the babies as pure hondos.

I do think that I might be justly accused of endorsing hybridization through my breeding focus on a color morph that is a product of intergradation. I breed creamsicles because I got hooked on them, love the color and essentially, I promote them - knowing that they are not a pure species. I am guilty of that, but I don't believe that species are static and I do believe corns are in the process of becoming essentially domesticated.

The most basic decision in stewardship of these captive species, in my opinion, is honestly representing what choices you make and what you produce and sell. I believe there is a place for various motivations among herpers - The challenge in breeding for me is not propogation - putting two animals together and making more of the same to sell. It is setting a goal within morphs, developing hets to maximize genetic diversity among several lines and then bringing morphs together to establish a combination I appreciate (and believe others will too).

I hope there is a place for that in the hobby. Some ideas presented in this thread about stewardship of wildlife and the risk that breeders manipulating species will undermine the credibility of the hobby have actually made me consider my stand, but not enough for me to change my opinion yet! I am, however, committed to making sure people understand what a creamsicle or rootbeer 'corn' is and how it differs from a pure corn - and whenever possible to provide consistent clear and somewhat biased information about hybrids and intergrades - that much I can be responsible for.

mary v.

Linds

11-01-04, 11:16 AM

While they can certainly make some very cool looking critters, I'm against all the problems associated with doing so. The fact is the cons far outweigh the pros, and as long as hybrids are being created, their will be an everlasting threat to the species in question.

Originally posted by Invictus
Not to mention, I've yet to see one good argument against hybridization except that it's "not natural".

How can you argue that contamination is not a good enough arguement? Or the problems associated with misrepresentation... both on a small, acute scale, or on a larger, chronic scale? While the 'not natural' arguement is valid and can be argued from either angle, the other points are very real as well, and you cannot argue that hybridization doesn't threaten the long-term purity of a sub/species. Thanks to hybridization, some species have been forever tainted.

Originally posted by Invictus
Bottom line - mother nature wouldn't allow it if it was against mother nature. The fact that it does happen proves that it's not necessarily against her design.

Not at all. The human race and all the problems it has brought upon the world are good enough example to show that mother nature doesn't always have a say in things. Look at problems that occur when foreign species are introduced in to ecosystems. An entire system can be upset, and can even be overtaken, when different species are introduced... definitely not what mother nature intended, but still happens nonetheless.

Originally posted by bighillreptiles
don't have a prob with it as long as you sell what thay are as hybreeds look at some of yhe corns like rootbeers, creamcicles and so on

The problem with that is not everyone will. Even still, no matter how honest you are, you have no guarantee that the people you sell them to will be. Not everyone has good intentions, and somewhere down the line those snakes will eventually be misrepresented :(

Originally posted by Brock
So yeah, I think specialized species should be kept true to their wild kin, but have fun with the more common things or things you know will be really cool. So I'm for it.

What makes them any different from eachother? Just because their numbers differ? Eventually those 'common' types will become increasingly uncommon in their pure forms due to hybridization. Colombian boas are very common, but the captive population is seriously contaminated. It's to the point that unless you handpick it out of the wild, you won't be 100% certain that it is pure.

Originally posted by RepTylE
Any of these hydrid animals would be expensive I would assume so I doubt that proliferation wouldn't be much of a problem so I see little to worry about here.

Hardly. Just like 'pure' snakes, the price varies from type to type. You can pick up a hybrid for $50, or you can pick one up for $500, again it all depends. Just because it's a 'specialty man-made item' doesn't do much to determine the price.

Originally posted by Simon
Against~~

Just don't really like the idea~

How come you work with them and sell them, if you are against them?

dave68

11-01-04, 12:42 PM

I believe each to their own. Really, if someone were into locale specific animals I don't think they would be buying from anyone except reputable people with a track record of honestly represented animals. I am guilty myself, i really would like to see a friendly pure white snake ie... "leucistic corn" Just not quite sure which way to go with it. Anyways great topic and glad to see we can all be so rational for once!

Dave

Invictus

11-01-04, 12:52 PM

My point is linds, humans cannot reproduce with Chimps, even though our DNA is 98% identical. It's against mother nature's design, so it simply cannot occur. Evolution occurs two ways in nature - 1) A slow transition to reflect changes in environments that take millions of years or 2) A species hybridizes in the wild and creates an entirely new species. You're absolutely fooling yourself if you think hybridization does not occur in the wild. It does. And mother nature intended it that way.

Linds

11-01-04, 01:11 PM

I'm not saying natural intergrades do not occur by any means, but you cannot say that just because something is compatible to breed means that it would naturally occur. I fail to see how the chimp arguement relates to anything. You don't have to be genetically identical in order to breed, as many hybrids have proven. I'm not talking natural intergrades here though, we are talking throwing one animal together with another for the fun of it, the money, or the looks. Many of these animals would never even encounter eachother in the wild. I'm not sure what exactly allows two species to hybridize, but I do know that mother nature doesn't really have a say in a lot of things once we get our grubby hands in to the mix and start trying to act the part. When we start mixing things up, things happen that nobody can debate are not by mother nature's design.

JimmyDavid

11-01-04, 01:25 PM

Does mother nature really have plans?
And, once we assume it has, what makes one think we can see the BIG picture?

Jeff_Favelle

11-01-04, 01:42 PM

We can't reproduce with Chimps? Has that been proven? Some people I've seen on the prairies, ...makes me wonder......... LOL! ;)

But seriously, has that been proven?

Tim_Cranwill

11-01-04, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
We can't reproduce with Chimps? Has that been proven? Some people I've seen on the prairies, ...makes me wonder......... LOL! ;)

But seriously, has that been proven?

Why you little... *shakes fist* :D

RepTylE

11-01-04, 02:16 PM

lol, I thought the topic was done in this particular thread but I guess that halloween rejuvenated it.

Linds, your points are well thought out and put forth as always.
If two species that are genetically similar starts to have an overlap of territories then some hydridization could theroretically occur. With loss of habitat in the world, who can say that such a thing isn't occuring as I type this.
If it is meant to be and a new species is created then the world has a new one, if not then nature nips it in the bud. Who's to say that hybridization isn't a small part of evolution? It could account for large leaps in the fossil record for all we know.

Now what does all this mean to we hobbyists? Not sure but one thing for sure is that it has made for a healthy and thought provoking debate :)

Invictus

11-01-04, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by RepTylE
[B]If it is meant to be and a new species is created then the world has a new one, if not then nature nips it in the bud. Who's to say that hybridization isn't a small part of evolution? It could account for large leaps in the fossil record for all we know.

You hit the nail right on the head! This is exactly the anthropological and archaeological theory behind certain dinosaur species just suddenly springing up that didn't occur before - I can't remember the exact species, but there are a few believed to be the result of hybridization.

And it's absolutely true that nature will nip it in the bud if it's not meant to happen. Just for the record, I'm not a spiritualist of any kind, and I don't believe in nature as a sentient force, I'm simply talking about the science of it. Many of the species you see today could very well be the result of hybridization. We don't know. A lot is known about the evolution of snakes, but not of the evolution of each individual genus and species.

Believe it or not, I'm more against intergrades than hybrids! I think what's happening with Salmontines and Hog Isle crosses is deplorable. If I had a locality boa, I would only breed it with that locality. At least when you cross most species, most of the time, it's an obvious, VISUAL hybrid that will not represent either parent so much that it will be unmistakeable. (Note: MOST of the time). With intergrades, it's impossible to tell sometimes. I have an adult female boa constrictor that has the nicest red tail I've ever seen in an adult. Could she be a BCC cross? Maybe. I'll never know. At least if I hybridize a corn and a milk snake, it will be VERY obvious that the result is NOT a pure corn.

RepTylE

11-01-04, 04:54 PM

Invictus and I are in accord, sorry folks the end of days are upon us. Nice knowing you all, lol.

No actually the intergrades point really makes alot of sense. A hybrid is a hybrid but a mix of localities would do alot of damage to the purity of the animals that we cherish so much. Unfortunately that would be much more difficult to prove or examine than a hybrid cross.

Jeff_Favelle

11-01-04, 08:42 PM

hybrid is a hybrid but a mix of localities would do alot of damage to the purity of the animals that we cherish so much. Unfortunately that would be much more difficult to prove or examine than a hybrid cross.

And you're not alone. The scientific community actually agrees with you as well. It is well known that ecologically, its far worse to cross species that even just a few hills or km away. Crossing of different metapopulations is a serious no-no in the eyes of science, and is considered far worse than hybridizing with different species.

And this is a major reason for not being allowed to own native animals in Canada, due to the fact that 99% of people wouldn't release the animal back where they caught it.

marisa

11-01-04, 09:01 PM

"But seriously, has that been proven?"

I looked on the net and lots of different "fables" about a chimp human hybrid, but no manapeeze as of yet.

Are you in the market for one, or? :P

Marisa

Jeff_Favelle

11-01-04, 09:56 PM

Mmmmm........manapeeeeeeeze........

Andy_G

11-01-04, 10:08 PM

Originally posted by marisa
"But seriously, has that been proven?"

I looked on the net and lots of different "fables" about a chimp human hybrid, but no manapeeze as of yet.

Are you in the market for one, or? :P

Marisa

I...think I might be one...my dad is really hairy!:eek:

marisa

11-01-04, 10:24 PM

"Mmmmm........manapeeeeeeeze........"

You're scary

Marisa

bighillreptiles

11-01-04, 10:34 PM

man will always make mistakes look at the world we live in ,We have killed more off in 100 years than nature has in 10,000 years .things will change and there is not a thing we can do about it so have fun in all you do , Just dont misrepresent the snakes you breed if they are hybred then sell as hybred , go look at k s .com and see all of the hybred kings there is in the u.s. and they must sell or the breeders would not be breeding them

bistrobob85

11-01-04, 11:00 PM

I'm against. I agreed with Ken, the world is going very bad. I also agree with Linds, saying that humans are overkilling the world... In my opinion, the only thing that could save the world is a regression of mankind. The only thing that would save men would be a comeback from 7 billions to 3-4 billions of human beings on earth only. Sadly, nobody will ever come to accept that because that it would mean the erradication of a good 50% of mankind all over the world... Animals do not need help anymore to be extinct. The global warming and pollution is so advance that polar bears can't hunt on ice anymore, it's too thin for them, as an example. Animals don't need help to be all mixed up and twisted, species dissapear by themselves. We should try to keep them as original as they would have been without men, it's a mather of respect. We kill them, each and everyone of us directly or indirectly are responsible of their disapearance and extinction. We should at least respect their origins and respect what they are... They are not business oportunities, they are dissapearing life forms.

phil.