Big Problem.

[damzookeeper]

I got my first snake in May. My okattee corn snake. Female Rosey. She is 2.5 years old and being my first snake I am learning with her as we go along and of course from the articles and care sheets I have read and a bit from her prev. owner. She eats perfectly, never refusing a meal unless in shed, deficates on a regular basis, and all else looks normal and healthy from the outside. Now, the problem is she has a lump at the base of her tail that she has had since I first got her. I didn't realize it until I got my new adult corn snake and He/she didn't have that bump. I took her back to the prev. owner. He is sure it is egg bound and he said he never sells a defective animals ( He had forgot to check her over before giving her to me but believes she was probably egg bound before I got her. I have a picture of her from the first night she came home with me and you can plainly see the lump. I even posted it here a while back but no one noticed.) :(
So, he said I can give her back to him for a refund or I can keep her and try to breed her out next year to see if the slug/egg will come out with the next clutch. She was never bred before because he had no male corn to go with her. He strongly adviced me keeping her and breeding her out next season with a male and see if she lives or dies. I just don't feel right doing that! I'm so upset!

I don't really want to give her back because if he takes her back he is just going to leave her and see what happens. She has been this way since before May 9th. That is when I got her. I don't have a clue how long before. I called my local herp vet to see about how much it would cost me, what might be done (exray, sergery or what ever) and found out she is no longer with the clinic, she moved back to Hungary. :( So, now I'm faced with transporting her to Ottawa which I can only do on week ends and paying a $75 dallor consellation fee, this isn't a problem for me but if it's going to cost $200 or more I just don't have the money right now. :( I did however ask them if they take payment and they said if I had to have surgery dont they probably would but they would need a visa number. Well, that's fine but when your visa is maxed out what good does that do? :confused:

Anyway, I can only get an appointment for September 18th. So, it gives me time to save up, but I'd really like to know what I need to save up. Is it going to cost me $500 to do this on a snake I just paid 150 for? Not that I'm complaining but I really wish I would have known about this before the purchase. Now I"m attached and I don't want any harm to come to her.
And I have to wait so long to get anything done. Have any of you had any experience with this and is it safe to wait that long. For all I know she could have been this way since March. She is eating 2 full grown mice every 2 weeks, she is a big girl and very active as I said before. But I can't tell if she is in any pain or anything, she's a corn, I heard they eat anything. lol. What is your input on this?

Thanks in advance. If you don't want to post here email me at deb@reptilerascals.com

p.s. here is the picture of her that I posted a while back. If you look good at her tail you can see the buldge.

http://www.reptilerascals.com/corn2004-05-09%20004.jpg

edited: I forgot to mention, she was on aspen when I got her. I put her on newspaper for the last 2 months and just recently (this month) put her back on aspen. She has a water dish and has shed 2x with me a nice full shed, no problems.

[Siretsap]

you sure it's eggbound or egg retention?

i have seen female cornsnakes with a swolen bottom part, almost like fat accumulation. Do you feel an egg when you slide your fingers in that part.

And if he said she is eggbound, maybe she could be if he is use to these snakes. The choice is really yours. Maybe you coul have someone feel her to see if it is egg bound or only fat deposits.

[bighillreptiles]

If you go look on cathy loves web page she has some good info on eggbound corns hope this helps. Paul

[vanderkm]

Have sent you an e-mail separately but suggest you check previous posts by Classic, Cranwill and Marc B on lampro list for some great discussion on eggbinding and egg retention diagnosis and treatment. There is a lot more information there than I can offer based on our rather limited experience, especially comments from Roy Stockwell.

You may be able to distinguish whether it is an egg (or eggs or slugs) based on how it feels when she moves across your hand. It certainly does not seem to merit immediate veterinary attention given that she has had the swelling for several months and she is eating and defecating normally.

She certainly is not a thin snake based on those pictures, but the fat deposits we have seen have had a more irregular, lumpy look to them than she has.

best of luck with your decisions and keep us posted,

mary v.

[augerdvm]

sent you an email Deb ..please read

[Simon]

To me it looks a lot more like fatty lumps than egg bound...
especially when you say that she was never bred before.....

Try and gentally squish it a bit and feel how it fels. If its soft, I bet that its just fatty deposit. If its kind f hard, then most likely its an egg bound.

But I do have a question for you...
has she eaten since you found the odd 'lump'?

[damzookeeper]

well, I took some pictures of her hind end hopefully they are a bit easier to see than the full body one that was taken May 9th. I also emailed Dr.Auger back and reading a couple emails and fallowing some advice for checking for eggs I can not feel any eggs. The bump kind of feels hard but squishy around the outside (the sides of the bump), if that makes any sesnce. lol.
Frankly at this point I'd be happy to pay the $75 to be told my snake is fat. I'm just worried now about an infection, growth, or god knows what? I do know that she was fed on aspen at her prev. home. She was never removed for feedings. I remove all my snakes for feeding into a sterile empty container or feed on newspaper.
Here is a link to the pictures I took of her and some of her eating pics.
Rosey. (http://www.reptilerascals.com/cornsnakegalpics.html)

[Katt]

Whoa! That looks like a seriously overweight corn we had. His were bigger, and right at the vent.

[damzookeeper]

Thanks everyone! I'm calling after work today to confirm a vet appointment for Sat. There goes my over time. lol. I know a vet appiontment may not be neccessary but I just want to be 100% sure it's fat and not something more serious. Most likely fat since she is so big and she used to eat weekly with the prev. owner.
Thanks all, I'll keep you posted on the visit if you like.
Deb.

[Simon]

If its really fatty deposit, then make sure you take it out to excercise a bit (by letting it crawl around) and reduce the feeding amoutn and scheduel.

Feed every 14 days.

Good luck and hope to hear some update from you soon~~

[vanderkm]

In that new pic it really looks much more like a fat deposit than like the swelling from an egg. The shape of the mass is quite suggestive.

We have a Durango with fat lumps along his lower body that have a very similar shape - more out to the side and not visible from below, whereas the eggs retention has shown very markedly from a side view, with even a very slight swelling of the belly.

We have had our Durango on limited feedings and a very heavy exercise program (huge cage with climbing tree that he uses a lot) since we got him and he has lost body weight this year but the fat lumps are almost unchanged. I will post some pics later but they are on a different computer.

Good luck with your vet visit - hope it is confirmed that it is just fat.

mary v.

[damzookeeper]

Well, Rosey went to the vet today....
First I have to express my deapest gratitude to Dr. D. Auger! This man is super! He took time out of his vacation to come in and see my snake and give me peace of mind. Not sure if I could wait till the 18th of Sept. without beign a nervous wreck.

Anyway, to the diagnoses!! She is healthy. He did a needle aspir and we were lucky enough to get a fecal sample on the way out to Ottawa. lol, so we did a fecal as well. Everything turned out great! I got to hear her heartbeat. That was really cool!
Looking at her he told me that he was pretty sure it was fat and the fluids proved that out once the tests were done. So, everything came back excellent except for the fact that she is about 100 grams overweight. lol. So, she will be starting a small diet soon and I will not breed her until she has slimmed down some so that she doesn't have problems with the eggs. I was so happy it wasn't anything more serious. So, now it is 1 rat fuzzy or adult mouse every 7-10 days instead of the 2 she was getting every second week. But when I got her in May the prev. owner had her on 2 every week and she was never excerised. Hubby isn't happy but I told him she is going to need at least 30mins. nightly of exercise time so she will be out with me and he will be cowering in the bedroom, possibly under the bed. lol.

Thanks again to all that helped.

[Will]

That's awesome.

Good to hear she is alright... :D

[Kevin McRae]

Awesome Deb.............good luck with him along the way.....

[Stockwell]

Ratsnakes and Kings are often overfed in captivety especially ones that aren't brumated and end up being fed 12 months of the year, which isn't natural for them. This causes fatty deposits, usually in the back end. If you hold the snake near the cloaca and let it swing down, it should be able to pull itself back up.. If it can't and just swings in the breeze like a wet noddle, it's definately obese. Many years ago I used to have some greybanded kings like that. These fat lumps are nearly impossible to get rid of without fasting the snakes for months at a time .

Deb, while the above stated condition is common, I have looked at your pics, and I'm not sure fat is the entire culprit at all with your specimen.
Snakes occasionally have minor defects in rib structure and these are generally right at the vent or at the umbilicus. Internal rib anomolies are generally reflected in scute aberrancies.
I have observed numberous specimens of different species that have had crossed scutes or broken scutes and these result in bumps in adults, which aren't seen in neonates.

I notice your snake has a cleft scute right at the cloaca.. It has a bit of a notch in it. That is not normal and probably reflects a minor bone anomaly that has been present in the rib structure from birth. Only an x-ray would reveal that, but it isn't fixable if that is the case so its not recommended. It's no big deal.
I am probably one of the very few that looks for scute anomalies in hold back snakes. It can be genetically passed to offspring so I personally don't hold back offspring with such as I don't wish to make more of them.
Some snakes that are very prone to this are Pueblan milks and probably many others that are bred in mass with little new blood being introduced. I have seen lots of pueblans with crossed scutes, and have refused to buy a few because of the defect as while not outwardly obvious in neonates it results in very noticable "bumps" in adults.
I'll also point out that female colubrids that have been very reproductive, expelling lots of eggs, can end up with expanded rib areas anterior to the cloaca..
Call it stretch marks..:)

[damzookeeper]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. And Roy, I will definately be looking up more on your comments. Have to find a snake anatamy page first so I can figure out what the scute is before I continue. lol. If this is a genetic trait I surely do not want to breed her.
Thanks again!!

[vanderkm]

Glad to hear the news sounds good for your female Deb - it is a challenge to do anything about that kind of extra weight once it is established.

Interesting comments Roy - something I will definately be looking for!

mary v.

[marisa]

I have a question about overweight corns....


Zookeeper now has to feed her corn a bit less at meal time to ensure she can loose these extra 100 grams....I always see people advising a "fat" snake eat once every 14 days instead of say 7.

Now in people one of the best way to BOOST your metabolisim and loose weight is not to eat less, but eat smaller meals more often. Now I KNOW snakes are NOT mammals or people, but would this make sense for a obese snake? I.E. instead of just one normally sized item every 14 days....you start feeding items about half as large as they can normally take, every week. ???

Marisa

[damzookeeper]

Originally posted by marisa
I have a question about overweight corns....


Zookeeper now has to feed her corn a bit less at meal time to ensure she can loose these extra 100 grams....I always see people advising a "fat" snake eat once every 14 days instead of say 7.

Now in people one of the best way to BOOST your metabolisim and loose weight is not to eat less, but eat smaller meals more often. Now I KNOW snakes are NOT mammals or people, but would this make sense for a obese snake? I.E. instead of just one normally sized item every 14 days....you start feeding items about half as large as they can normally take, every week. ???

Marisa

Marisa, Dr. Auger told me to feed her half the proportion she used to get every 7-10 days. She was eating a 100 gram rat or 2 full size mice every 7-10 days. I had cut her down to eating it every 13-14 days just a couple weeks before the visit because I bought my second adult corn in July and the owner said that was better for them. So, now we are back to the 7-10 days but she will only be getting a small rat or 1 full grown mouce. 1/2 the meal she was getting before. ;)

I've checked out a couple sites on anatomy and I can't really find anything wrong with her but I could be wrong, I'm no expert. But she is rather heafy. 810 grams and her back bone does not show at all, actually almost an indent instead of a spine bone sticking out, because of her obesety I'm sure. I looked at her compaired to my new corn and she is much heavier adn much thicker around. I guess time will tell if she loses weight.
Thanks again all.
Deb.

[marisa]

I see. So basically that's what you are doing anyways!

Well I am sure with the new diet, and plenty of time out of her enclosure things will work out. What do you house her in? Maybe a large enclosure with branches and stuff to climb on will help, if you don't already have that. :D

Good luck!
Marisa