crazykeeper
03-22-04, 10:35 AM
This guy is screwed,,Who in their right mind would sell a venomous snake to anyone under 18,,he deserves,everything he gets,i hope they shut him down,he is just making a bad name for us responsible HOT keepers,sellers,sorry to flame,but this is just stupidity..my 2 cents
Cruciform
03-22-04, 11:13 AM
It sucks that the guy's life is going to be ruined by this lawsuit, but what the hell was he thinking?
Whether the kid had the parent's credit card or not, he sold it to the kid, which puts quite a bit of responsibility on his own head.
As a vendor he has the right to refuse to sell to anyone. He should have done so in this case.
A large portion of the responsibility also lies with the mother, and of course the kid (who at 17 should know better than to kiss venomous snakes unless he's an idiot).
The thing is with a civil suit is that if the family sues for 10 million dollars, and the court finds that she is 70% responsible and the vendor is 30% responsible, he will still have to shell out 3 million dollars.
Also, the fact that he has now posted in a public forum that he knew the waiver was useless can be used as further incrimination against him.
He needs to shut up and get off the forums IMMEDIATELY or they'll hang him out to dry.
Cruciform
03-22-04, 03:24 PM
Wow, I just read that whole thread.
He's completely buggered. No insurance company is going to touch him, and he's going to spend the rest of his life having his wages garnished.
Maybe it will prevent someone else from selling a hot to people who haven't got a clue.
Heck, I wouldn't sell a hot to me and I'm 31! I'm interested in them, and I'd be careful as hell, but I still don't have the knowledge (or the reflexes) necessary.
It's amazing how opinions differ on this board vs. others isn't it :)
M_surinamensis
03-22-04, 06:24 PM
There's two sides to this though.
One the one hand it's not responsible to sell a venomous snake to a seventeen year old kid, this I agree with.
On the other, I don't see a problem with a parent deciding to allow their responsible post-pubescent kid the ability to own or handle a hot. It's their animal and their kid, they should be allowed to determine the acceptable level of risk to both.
The problem of course is a combination of the sue-happy mentality we've got all over the states and the fact that the mother wasn't physically present. Nobody is responsible for themselves anymore and it's only a matter of time before someone sues an oven manufacturer because their Toddler tipped a frying pan full of bacon grease on their own heads while the supposedly responsible adult was on their cell phone. The mother not being in the store to complete the transaction is a nail in the coffin the way these cases seem to be going these days.
I yearn for a return to a time when people were allowed to be responsible for themselves. When you could smoke (I don't smoke) and drink (I don't drink too often either) and eat fatty foods and freehandle your venomous snake without it making the news (I don't freehandle) and try to repair your own lawnmower and cut half your fingers off without getting paid to do so. I'd really rather live in a society when someone sueing in a situation like this is instead told "Stop being a dumbass." rather than "Here's forty million dollars to ease your emotional distress, we'll protect you from the world with warning labels and instruction manuals that weigh more than the actual product."
Mustangrde1
03-30-04, 08:57 PM
LANCASTER SUNDAY NEWS (Pennsylvania) 27 March 04 Snakebit (Maria Coole Mcoole)
Bitten by his West African bush viper, a Pequea boy’s life is saved by doctors and zookeepers. He may lose a finger.
One of Vinny Drago’s dreams is to meet Steve Irwin of TV’s “The Crocodile Hunter.’’ Irwin has spent his whole life living amongst and working with reptiles and other native Australian wildlife at the Australia Zoo, which was founded by his parents.
Vinny’s experience with reptiles pales in comparison, but the 17-year-old Pequea boy has had one experience that Irwin hasn’t. He has been bitten by a venomous snake.
And he didn’t choose a good one.
Yes, it was beautiful: bright green with yellow spots and turquoise eyes.
But the most important thing to consider if you are going to keep a venomous snake is “Can you get antivenin?” (Antivenin is also known informally as antivenom).
And for the West African bush viper, the first venomous snake Vinny owned, the answer is no.
Vinny could have died, and might lose a finger, because he didn’t know that.
Vinny Drago owned his first pet snake at age 4. Reptiles and amphibians have been his passion. He grew up in Florida and caught many in their natural habitat. When he was in kindergarten, he even carried a coral snake off a playground because the teacher and students were frightened.
He has had many nonvenomous pet snakes, including pythons and boa constrictors and has done much research on snakes. But the West African bush viper (Atheris chlorechis) and its venom have not been studied much, and there have been conflicting reports about how dangerous a bite could be.
Vinny said the man he bought the snake from told him it wouldn’t hurt him. “The guy had told me, if I had gotten bitten, nothing would happen. I would not even get sick. I would just have a little bit of pain, like a bee sting,’’ Vinny said.
Vinny’s mother Lisa called the man the next day. “He said ... it would not hurt my son,’’ she said.
The Dragos did not want the name of the person who sold the snake to Vinny published.
“You know that gut feeling you get when you are a parent. I just had that gut feeling. … I was too naïve,” said Lisa.
“If I’d known there was no antivenom, I would never allowed Vinnie to have it.”
There are not many people who are competent to work with West African bush vipers, said Brint Spencer, curator of reptiles and amphibians at the Philadelphia Zoo.
“In general, venomous snakes should never be considered a pet. They are ... something to observe,’’ he said.
And anyone keeping a venomous snake should keep antivenom, he said.
Spencer said he is unaware of any fatalities from a bush viper bite in the United States. “Typically, it’s very painful, usually not fatal,’’ he said.
After living with Vinny for seven months, the West African bush viper, about 19 inches long and 3 to 4 years old, has been a vagabond.
It spent a few weeks with Chet Sourbeer of Millersville after he heard through a friend that Lisa wanted it out of her house. But after Sourbeer took the snake to Millersville, word filtered to the police department, which informed Sourbeer of the borough zoning ordinance that prohibits keeping venomous snakes.
The snake then spent a day at the Millersville Borough police station until police Chief John Rochat contacted the Philadelphia Zoo, and Spencer came to pick it up.
The snake will soon move from the Philadelphia Zoo to a venom lab in Kentucky, where it will stay until it finds a permanent home at a zoo in Ohio.
Sourbeer, who has kept many reptiles and amphibians, said the man who sold the snake to Vinny “had no business selling the snake to a kid that young.”
There is no Pennsylvania law forbidding the sale of exotic venomous snakes, said Gary Davis, president and founder of the Northeast Pennsylvania Herpetological Society.
The only laws concern native species, he said. The state leaves it up to each municipality, he said.
Chad Peeling, operations manager for Reptiland on U.S. Route 15 in Allenwood, said a lot of towns have laws against keeping venomous snakes.
“The real problem is when people do foolish things. It’s hard to legislate against that,” he said. “In terms of legalities, there are no broad statewide or nationwide laws preventing people from keeping venomous snakes,” he said.
The West African bush viper is not a threat to community, he said, but “it can put you in hospital and make your life pretty unpleasant for a while.”
Vinny’s life became “pretty unpleasant” on Feb. 9. Before he went to bed in the early morning, he checked the bush viper’s cage. The snake looked like it might be dead. He reached in and moved a log in the cage.
The snake struck, sinking its two fangs into his left index finger.
The pain began immediately. Within minutes his hand and arm were swollen, and his finger, where the snake struck, was turning black and blue. By the time the ambulance arrived, the tissue in his finger and hand was already dying.
Vinny ran into his mother’s room, waking her up, yelling in pain.
“I thought for sure I was going to lose him,” said Lisa.
Rescue personnel quickly contacted Harrisburg Hospital, which told them to have the nearest medical helicopter airlift Vinny to Harrisburg. Then Harrisburg began researching what to do about the bite.
Dr. Kevin Washington got on the phone with Lisa, and she gave him all the information she could.
While the Conestoga Ambulance crew was putting a tourniquet on Vinny’s arm to prevent the progression of the venom, the helicopter was landing across from their home deep in the country.
Washington was spending just a month at Harrisburg Hospital as part of his residency training. This was his first snake bite. Dr. Ward Donovan, head of the toxicology department, has dealt with snake bites but never one with no available antivenom, Washington said.
The next step was checking with poison centers throughout the country to find the best antivenom, Washington said.
He also searched the Internet for information. He and Donovan settled on a polyvalent (a mix of antivenoms that included antigens that work on snakes similar to the West African bush viper) from South Africa. But the choice was a gamble.
After finding out through a poison control center in Tuscon, Ariz., which zoos in the country might have the South African antivenom, Washington called the Philadelphia Zoo and the Baltimore Zoo. Both zoos, which Washington praised for their help, provided antivenom.
Vinny arrived at Harrisburg Hospital at between 1:30 and 2 a.m., Washington said. Spencer of the Philadelphia Zoo got a phone call at home at around 2:30 a.m. He drove to the zoo to pick up five vials of antivenom and then drove to the Philadelphia airport. A helicopter from Harrisburg was at the airport to fly the antivenom back to the hospital. At the same time, employees from the Baltimore Zoo were driving 10 vials of antivenom to Harrisburg.
Meanwhile, the hospital staff was giving Vinny rattlesnake antivenom at around 3 a.m., hoping it might help while they waited for the antivenom from Philadelphia.
It didn’t help. The swelling continued, and Vinny’s entire arm was so painful that even grazing it lightly was excruciating, Washington said.
At around 4:30 a.m., Vinny got the first South African polyvalent antivenom when the Philadelphia Zoo vials arrived. The antivenom from the Baltimore Zoo came later. Vinny was given more antivenom at around 10 or 11 a.m., Washington said.
The progression of the damage from the venom stopped after the hospital administered the South African antivenom, Washington said, although his body might have been starting to recover on its own at the same time he received the South African antivenom.
Washington said he doesn’t really know if Vinny came close to dying from the snake bite, although the teen showed signs that the venom had gotten into his central circulation system and he had blood abnormalities.
Without the antivenom, “potentially [Vinny] could have lost his arm or could have died. There is no way to know for sure.”
If there could be any luck involved in a snake bite, Vinny was in one of the best places he could have been. Harrisburg Hospital is the only hospital in the country that has a toxicology unit with hospital beds dedicated just for poison patients.
Vinny spent nine days in the hospital. He is home now, but cannot go to school. A Penn Manor High School student, he is being schooled at home two days a week.
His prognosis is very good, Washington said, but he still might lose his left index finger because there was a lot of tissue damage, and he could need skin grafts. When antivenom is administered it does not stop the local tissue damage; it just stops the progression of the venom through the body, he said. He estimated it would take several months for Vinny’s finger to heal.
Washington has written an article on Vinny’s case for a medical journal, but it isn’t published yet.
Because there is not a great demand for an antivenom for the West African bush viper, no one has invested the time and money to produce it. In its native habitat in northwest and middle Africa the snake has rare contact with humans.
The antivenom the Philadelphia Zoo stores is imported from South Africa. To import the antivenom, Spencer needs a special combined permit that is issued by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the Health & Human Services Department.
Some zoos, including the Philadelphia Zoo, won’t keep bush vipers on display because there is no antivenom, said Spencer.
Chad Peeling of Reptiland said Harrisburg Hospital also called them looking for antivenom, but they didn’t have what was needed.
“It is dangerous,” Peeling said of the West African bush viper. “It is not high on the list of the most dangerous snakes,” he said.
“They are relatively small snakes. That is a factor. The quantity of the venom is smaller with smaller snakes.”
The venom is poorly studied and so few bites occur, he said, there is not much experience in treating them.
The American Association of Poison control Centers has no data on West African bush viper bites, and the bites are not required to be reported anywhere, a spokeswoman for the group said.
A snake can control the amount of venom it releases, said Spencer of the Philadelphia Zoo. How a bite affects a person depends on sensitivity, where the bite is and how much venom was injected, said Spencer.
If the snake hits a vein or artery, the venom will travel more quickly through the blood. If the snake thinks it is being threatened, it will inject a smaller amount of venom than if it is striking to kill its food, Spencer said.
“In a feeding response, the snake wants to kill whatever it is as quickly as possible, so it doesn’t have to track it.”
“In a captive situation,” he said, “when a snake strikes, it is usually a feeding response because it is used to the door opening and food coming in.”
Spencer said the real cost of keeping snakes isn’t the purchase price; it’s the cost of the antivenom.
But that cost has to include importation paperwork and brokerage fees. The cost of the antivenom from the Philadelphia Zoo, not including Spencer’s time and the helicopter, probably was around $500.
In researching his upcoming book, Michael Jacobi, the author of The World of Atheris Web site (www.worldofatheris.net) found only a handful of bite accounts, he told the Sunday News in an e-mail.
He writes on his Web site that African bush viper venom is “poorly studied and generally misunderstood. ... [There is] an erroneous belief that these snakes are ‘mildly venomous’ or not life threatening. This is simply not true.”
Grateful mom
Lisa, who is unemployed, is worried about the bills. Insurance will not pay for the helicopter trips, the ambulance, Vinny’s medicine and the antivenom. And when Vinny turns 18 in April, he will no longer be covered by insurance.
She is grateful, though, for all the help they have gotten and how much people have cared.
She praised the hospital and staff, also.
“The toxicology team was great. … I can’t thank them enough.”
But Washington garnered most of her praise.
“I just owe him everything. … He’s just a really wonderful doctor,” Lisa said.
Ok i have to take this report apart partly because I am sick and board and partly because things are not sitting well with me.
One of Vinny Drago’s dreams is to meet Steve Irwin of TV’s “The Crocodile Hunter.’’
I just can not help but wonder if he was doing exactly what he see's Steve do?
Vinny Drago owned his first pet snake at age 4. Reptiles and amphibians have been his passion. He grew up in Florida and caught many in their natural habitat. When he was in kindergarten, he even carried a coral snake off a playground because the teacher and students were frightened.
So 13 years keeping and working with reptiles and probably reading about them. I seriously doubt he would beleive Atheris to be safe animal. Next if the report is correct about the Coral { what the hell were teachers thinking. I seriously doubt that occured.
The guy had told me, if I had gotten bitten, nothing would happen. I would not even get sick. I would just have a little bit of pain, like a bee sting,’’ Vinny said.
Um and let us see here Steve's own E-mail said
On January 25, 2004 I received a phone call from the 17 year olds mother which concerned me very much. She told me her son has been free handling and kissing the snake on the lips. I asked her to return the snake to me for a full refund and not to allow her 17 year old to own any venomous. The parent ignored to accept the opportunity to return the snake and get a full refund.
On January 26th I received this e-mail from the 17 year old son.
From: 17@aol.com [mailto:17@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 5:48 AM
To: reptiles@serpentsden.com
Subject: please read
i was wondering how venomous my atheris chlorechis like on a scale of 1 to 10 for it to kill me if i got but i promase i will not take any more chanced like that in my life i promase well you are the nicest herpetoloigst i have ever talked to you know your $hit man thanks again for everything and 1 more thing since i bought my bush viper a couple of months ago she hasend shed at all not even any signs for it but she eats and drinks she's verry healthy sorry to bother you soo much but i just trust your knowlage if you can write back a.s.a.p. i would highly appreate it thank you again for everything.......... sincerely,
My Reply to the 17 year old on 1/26/04
On a scale of 1 to 10 I would guess at saying maybe a 3
As far as the snake not shedding, it will when it’s ready to, try feeding it more often.
Oh boy I think that no place did Steve state bee sting an in fact the boy said he would not take any more chances. Furthermore the Childs parent had been informed and given the oppurtunity to bring the animal back after she witnessed him performing dangerous acts.
Vinny’s mother Lisa called the man the next day. “He said ... it would not hurt my son,’’ she said.
On January 25, 2004 I received a phone call from the 17 year olds mother which concerned me very much. She told me her son has been free handling and kissing the snake on the lips. I asked her to return the snake to me for a full refund and not to allow her 17 year old to own any venomous. The parent ignored to accept the opportunity to return the snake and get a full refund.
Ok now who is not telling the truth for some strange reason im thinking mommy.
“If I’d known there was no antivenom, I would never allowed Vinnie to have it.”
Ok so by her own admission she new it was venomous and allowed her son to keep it anyway.
After living with Vinny for seven months, the West African bush viper, about 19 inches long and 3 to 4 years old, has been a vagabond.
7 MONTHS 7 for mom to ask around or do a web search or contact a zoo or other qualified institute.
There is no Pennsylvania law forbidding the sale of exotic venomous snakes, said Gary Davis, president and founder of the Northeast Pennsylvania Herpetological Society.
The only laws concern native species, he said. The state leaves it up to each municipality, he said.
Chad Peeling, operations manager for Reptiland on U.S. Route 15 in Allenwood, said a lot of towns have laws against keeping venomous snakes.
“The real problem is when people do foolish things. It’s hard to legislate against that,” he said. “In terms of legalities, there are no broad statewide or nationwide laws preventing people from keeping venomous snakes,” he said.
Foolish damn skippy. Mom lets child keep a snake freehandling it that she is very much aware is venomous.
Dr. Kevin Washington got on the phone with Lisa, and she gave him all the information she could.
While the Conestoga Ambulance crew was putting a tourniquet on Vinny’s arm to prevent the progression of the venom, the helicopter was landing across from their home deep in the country.
Washington was spending just a month at Harrisburg Hospital as part of his residency training. This was his first snake bite. Dr. Ward Donovan, head of the toxicology department, has dealt with snake bites but never one with no available antivenom, Washington said.
The next step was checking with poison centers throughout the country to find the best antivenom, Washington said.
He also searched the Internet for information. He and Donovan settled on a polyvalent (a mix of antivenoms that included antigens that work on snakes similar to the West African bush viper) from South Africa. But the choice was a gamble.
I am so curious if they even bothered to call Venom1 who would certainly be able to help. But the settled on a Polyvalent i wonder which one?
Meanwhile, the hospital staff was giving Vinny rattlesnake antivenom at around 3 a.m., hoping it might help while they waited for the antivenom from Philadelphia.
Were two diffrent types of AV given !!!???
Ok enough im getting really pissed thinking about this is possibly a set up bite for monetary compinsation. If you think it hasnt been done before ask Wal-Mart about pigmy rattlers in their garden department.
This can also be found on FaunaClassifieds.
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