Timbers/Canebrakes

[shaggybill]

Here in Indiana, it is illegal to keep C. Horridus because of it being a native species. I was wondering, if they were to ever split C. Horridus and officially name the southern species C. Atricaudatus, would it then be legal to keep the latter? I know that while we cannot keep A.C. Mokasen, we can keep A.C. Controtrix. Do you think the laws on Timbers would be similar?

[SCReptiles]

It will depend on how the law is written. If they say no indigenous species, then yes you will be legal to keep canes if Dr Gordon gets his way and they separate the canes and timbers. If they have a list, then again you will be fine if they give the cane its own species. If they move it back to a sub-species of the timber, then it will probably still prevent you from keeping them.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Actually, C. Horridus Atricaudatus would be a suspecies and C.Horridus would become C Horridus Horridus....again. It already is that way depending on who you talk to. I think Cites is about fed up with debate but are doing some heavy fence straddling lol. Surely your local laws don't exclude non native subspecies? If so that would pretty much rule out most of the US native snakes. Timbers in the Northern range are protected for a good reason. There numbers are getting pretty thin. I don't think there is much of a shortage on canebrakes and right now they aren't protected at all....at least in Georgia.

[JuliusSqueezer]

"I know that while we cannot keep A.C. Mokasen, we can keep A.C. Controtrix. Do you think the laws on Timbers would be similar?"

Ahhh nevermind, that answers that question.

[shaggybill]

Thats true. Right now C. Horridus is illegal. If they made the canbrake its one species, then it would be C. H. Atricaudatus, which is still C. Horridus. In order for canebrakes to then be legal in INdiana, they would have to rewrite the laws to specify that it is C. Horidus Horridus that are illegal.

[JuliusSqueezer]

It won't be it's own species. It will be a subspecies but that still should be ok. Just like Agkistradon Contortix Mokasen is a subspecies of Agkistradon Contortrix Contortrix and it's ok there.

[Crotalus75]

In MO we can't keep any native pit vipers (without a wildlife permit). This includes all subspecies whether native or not. Probably because most gov employees couldn't recognize the differece. So you never know what crazy stipulations government agencies may impliment. Just my 2.

[SCReptiles]

JuliusSqueezer, I don’t think you are familiar with the latest work of Dr Gordon Schuett. In his new paper, due to be released at a later date, he is supporting that the Canebrake be considered it’s own species and not a sub-species of the Timber. If his supporting research is accepted, then the cane will be considered C. Atricaudatus and completely separate from C. Horridus and should then become legal in the northern states that do not allow the keeping of Timbers. Also in GA we can keep all Agkistrodon species. Our laws are written giving a list of allowed species and they stop at the species level thus making all coopers and cottons legal.

[Crotalus75]

".....supporting that the Canebrake be considered it’s own species and not a sub-species of the Timber"

From the studies that I have seen it looks like C. h. horridus and C. h. atricaudatus have very similar genetic makeups....too similar to truly be considered a subspecies let alone 2 full fledged species. The different forms of C. horridus have a huge area of integration as well. just my 2 again.

[BWSmith]

Also in GA we can keep all Agkistrodon species

Well, not really. We can keep all subspecies of Agkistrodon contortrix and piscovorus. Not all species of Agkistrodon.

I will be interested to see his paper and the reaction of the herp community. I like the idea of ssp rather than sp. Of course, I have not done genetic work on them ;)

[kao1001]

holy geez guys. i'm so lost. but then again. i'm canadian and i keep no hot herps right now. (looking for prairie rattlesnake if anyone breeds or has one for sale.) but other then that little guy, not too interested in keeping herps. but yeah, all this scientific name stuff is confusing. so lost......