Double Clutches

[MouseKilla]

This came up in another thread about the age of adult snakes. Mark I. was referring to ideal breeding size or age for female corns coming typically in their third year (I think that's what he said... don't wanna misquote...). He said this way they've grown into big double-clutchers. My question is what is the general threshold for size when considering going for that second clutch? Is size the only consideration or is it a combination of size and age? What would be the minimum body weight at which a second clutch should be considered?

[Tim_Cranwill]

I would base it more on the condition of the female coming out of her first clutch. I double clutched my female okeetee last year because she was in great shape after her 1st clutch and she was eating like a pig. 1st clutch was 17 eggs and the 2nd was 15 eggs. She was in great shape after the 2nd clutch too. She is around 600g and 48". I wouldn't use that as a guideline or anything but that's what her story is. :)

[Stockwell]

I pretty much concur with Tim...
Double clutching is a somewhat imperfect science.
Some snakes do it, and some just don't.
Some that look too thin and really shouldn't, and some that aren't even remated will still double clutch. Then on the other hand big ol'fat girls that should, just wont for some reason.
The general guidline is that they must be refertilized within a week or two of ovipostion of the first clutch.
Then you need to pack the food to them ..

Some will double clutch without being rebred but the percentage of good eggs will decline

Most ratsnakes will double clutch, and several of the milksnakes, especially Pueblans which can produce up to 3 or 4 clutches a season. Hog nose snakes multi clutch(had 3 last year)
House snakes and several other colubrids will also double clutch.
It's almost unheard of in boids

[MouseKilla]

Thanks guys. I guess there is no magic number then so I suppose I'll just have to try to make an assessment after the first clutch, see how well she takes the food. I had no idea that it was possible to get more than double clutches, that's amazing. Is this something that comes from housing the snakes in pairs or is it done at predetermined intervals?

[marisa]

I bred my snow corns for the first time last year. The male and female only saw each other once, for once mating session. Neither male or female was brumated (not sure if that has anything to do with anything, just adding for info)

Anyways
First clutch of 20 eggs laid on: May 1st
Second clutch of 13 eggs laid on: July 13th

In the first clutch, all eggs were fertile and 100% hatched. In the second clutch only one egg was fertile, and hatched. The rest were duds. So basically I got 21 fertile eggs out of 33 total on one mating. lol.

Anyways I didn't want or mean to double clutch her, she just went. :) So next time I may breed her again after the first clutch just to up fertility for the second she will most likely lay mated again or not.

Marisa

[crimsonking]

My Miami female will dbl clutch no matter what--and she NEVER lays IN the box on the 2nd one! Usually under or very nearly under the lay box for some reason. I have not had any "smallish" corns double clutch even after a 2nd breeding, yet most of my larger ones do. Even so "large" is kinda relative too. My Okeetee is huge compared to my Miami and always looks heavier even after laying. If you ever get into the Arizona mtn. kings, you'll think the female is going to die right after she lays. It takes more out of them than the corns, and I just don't feel right putting her through that twice in a year.
:Mark

[gonesnakee]

Pretty much same as everyone else is saying for starters. If the females appear to be big & healthy enough to do so I introduce them to the males again. I never used too, but got tired of snakes laying 2nd clutches of infertile eggs. I figure if they are going to lay em they might as well be fertile so now I breed them all again. Not all of them double clutch, but the ones that do have a much higher fertility rate. They don't seem to store too much sperm for the 2nd go round on their own so they need another "supplement" so to speak for increased success. LOL
I have also found that my bigger/older female corns & greybands will all double clutch, whereas the CKs, Mtns & JungleCorns (even though they are huge girls) all only single clutched DOH! Mark
P.S. I'll add that I think having the females housed in close proximity of the males does help in reguards to the 2nd clutches. I believe that they sense they are there & ovulate again because of their presence. This close housing also keeps the males more horny than hungry I might add also & it is not uncommon for them not to eat until their get their fair share of breeding in. Guys have their priorities. :p

[MouseKilla]

So what you're saying is if I have a female that is large enough to breed in the first place it will do no harm to mate her a second time?

[Tim_Cranwill]

Not exactly...

She may drop a 2nd clutch either way but if she isn't in great shape after the 1st clutch, I wouldn't put her with the male for the 2nd.

Just make sure she eats a lot after the 1st clutch and she should be in good shape. In the end, they are in control! Well, they're in control of MY life... :D