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[Sheldon & Tori]

This is one of our 4.5 month old females. Her name is Lanahu (Coal in english)

http://www.geocities.com/leo_gecko_man/coal.jpg

On the left is our 6 month old male Kikekeki (Gidget in english) and on the right is our 9 year old (that's right, i said year!) male Othello.

http://www.geocities.com/leo_gecko_man/gidget-and-othello.jpg

This is a pic of another of our 4.5 month old females. Her name is Aphrodite. She is the only one out of our 8 with a regrown tail. The cut on her nose is from a piece of skin she ripped off during a shed.

http://www.geocities.com/leo_gecko_man/pandora.jpg

[JD@reptiles]

pic didn't work

[Sheldon & Tori]

oh well, you can check them out at www.geocities.com/leo_gecko_man/home.html

[Sheldon & Tori]

The pic of Pandora is under the For sale link along with lanahu. The pic of Kikekeki and Othello is on the link below the for sale one.

[foman]

Worked for me.

[ChristinaM]

very cute :)

[skillz]

I like the middle Picture :)

[Bartman]

i made a page on geocities aswell but whenever people go on it it overloads and stops working..then you can go back like an hour later and it works. Did you sign up for the normal account or did you pay something so that doesnt happen?

[Tim and Julie B]

Gotta get em off the sand though:D

[JeffT]

Yeah get them off the cali-sand i've heard its ever harder for them to get through their system then regular stuff.

[mathaldo]

Are you keeping 2 males together? Because in the pciture you say here are 2 of our males and they're in the same cage.

[Sheldon & Tori]

yeah, we have three males, two in one cage (9yr old and 7month old) and the yellow male in the pic is now in a cage with three other females. We will be seperating the two males at the first sign of aggression. So far there hasn't been any with the exception of our 7 month old male biting a 1.5month old (unsexed). We figured it was a territorial thing tho cuz the little one was on his vine. (we were just seeing if they got along, and since they didn't we seperated the two little ones and then ended up selling them.

[Sheldon & Tori]

bartman ---> i just signed up for a regular account. i'm not going to pay money if i don't have to....lol

[Youkai]

Just some friendly advice...

Never keep leos of such a size and age difference together. It is not fair to that younger animal. It could have been territorial, it could have been that he mistook it for a meal! Either way, the young one is being stressed.

For the older males. You say there's no signs of aggression, but one looks very, very thin. Stress could still be an (unseen) factor.

Both of these things you are doing are very risky. Both situations can cause extreme stress. I don't see any reason to do it. If cage space is an issue, I'd sell some animals.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but these are some basic needs that need to be met. Stress while not immidiately apparent can do a lot of damage in the long run. Those two males might fight one day, and you probably won't be there. A male leo can break the skin on a human, imagine what it could do to a tank mate.

Please consider...

[C.m.pyrrhus]

Out of curiosity I wonder how long you have studies herps. As evident by your posts and threads, it seems you lack make a lot of common mistakes, some not so wise, and then again have a website on husbandry.....?????

First there was a problem with the way you kept your boids all caged together. Now it seems you have mistakes brewing with your leos as well. I just do not understand why you have care information when it shows you cannot do it with your own herps. I am not trying to come off as a jerk. Yet here it seems every thread you start is filled with common mistakes that folks with experience should understand, right???? Sorry, but I am just not understanding your methods.....

In the long run, I think it would be a great idea to follow some of the advise here in the thread. Even though you have not seen any aggresive behavior, does not mean it is not taking a toll on your herps. Some of the methods of husbandry could be changed and looked into....and yes, please concider better methods of keeping your reptiles....

My 2 cents

[matt_winter]

C.m.pyrrhus is right. This aggresion could go on when you are not around too.
You might want to seperate them

[Sheldon & Tori]

youkai ---> My snow leopard i got as a "rescue". he was given to the pet store i work at because his owners didn't have time for him anymore. he was extremely malnurished when i got him (about 2 days before that pic was taken). We are working on fattening him up but it is taking a while. We've found that if we give him more than 3 wax worms in one feeding he reguritates them. all of our gecko's get wax worms as a treat once a week (with the exception of him, he gets them twice a week due to the amount he can eat in one feeding) We even gave him a pinkie a couple weeks ago and he ate it like there was no tomorrow and ended up reguritating that one as well.

C.M ---> caging is not a problem at the moment. we just haven't seen any aggression in our two males yet (due to one of the males being a juvi still) we have noticed him wagging his tail at the two females in the cage these last couple of days and the females seem to do it to him (kinda in a mocking way when he is sleeping) as well. from what i've read this is a breeding/territorial thing and we will be seperating him right away (probably tomorrow) as far as my website goes, i've read a lot of different things on the internet but i wrote down the natural behavior of males in close areas. so yeah, as of tomorrow, our males will have their own cages and our females with share one big cage. (probably with our older male because we don't plan on breeding him)

I do have a question for everyone tho.......a girl at work has a leo that was a healthy weight but for some reason just stopped eating. she asked me to take her (the gecko) for a couple days and see if i could get her to eat. i crushed up some freeze dried mealies and mixed them with water and fed them to the gecko with a syringe but she kept spitting out a lot of the fluid. i thought i would try some gecko mush (ensure plus, pedialite, egg yolk, mushed crix) that i got the "recipe" for off of another post but thought i would ask if there was a cheaper way to do it?

[BoidKeeper]

You can lead a horse to water...

[Emily-Fisher]

One reason why he might be regurgitating his food is because of parasites. You should get a fecal done. You should seperate your leos. All of my leos are housed seperately... even the females! You should especially seperate them if that gecko has parasites... you don't want your other leos getting them!

[JeffT]

Well if it is really sick and VERY skinny the why the hell would you keep it with another MALE that isnt sick???? Its easy to tell that snow leopard isnt well at all, he looks like a skeleton. Are you trying for the sick leo so pass it's illness on to the other.

Like Emily said, Get a fecal done by a vet. It will determine any parasites and tell you what you need to do and they only cost about $15.

j

[Youkai]

Regurgitation is often caused by stress, inadequate heat, and parasites/illness.

So, make sure the animal is separated. Make sure it has a warm spot of about 88°F (not a heat rock). Make sure you take a stool sample to a vet.
Obviously there hasn't been any quarantining going on here, so you may want to take stool samples from most (all?) of your animals to be looked at. Some of the animals in the pictures looked thin.

Yes, caging was an issue. There is a very good reason that in every last book and care sheet you read on leos expressly warns never to keep males together. Like I said, stress is something that can go unseen.

For future reference, never, EVER keep a sick animal with a healthy one! Reguritation is a sign of a serious problem.

There is no cheaper mix you can make than the one you are talking about there.....all of those ingredients are inexpensive. But again, quarantine and take a fecal to a vet.

[lizardboy007]

Very Cute Little Geckos You Got There :)

[Sheldon & Tori]

hey everyone, i just thought i'd give you an update on that sick gecko i was looking after for my co-worker. well, she died in my hands tonight. it has got to be one of the hardest things i've had to go through (having an animal die in my hands. had she died in her little container it probably wouldn't have been so tough to handle, but ya). As far as my underweight male goes, he is doing better than when that pic was taken. i took that pic approx. two days after i got him. the reason the poor guy is so skinny is due to the fact that he was only given up to ten crix every two weeks for about three months prior to me getting him. his old owner would drop a bunch of crix in with him, wait about 2 minutes and then take out whatever was left over. i've had him checked out by the vet that comes to our store (one of the better reptile vets in the city) and she told me that other than being extremely underweight and having a deformed lower jaw, he seemed fine to her. i had this physical check done a month ago. i will be giving her a fecal sample from him on tuesday (when she comes to the store next) and i'll give you the results as soon as i get them.

[Youkai]

I'm getting a good idea of where you work. In fact, I'm almost 100% sure what store (chain) we are talking about.

No, the vet is NOT one of the better in the city. "Aaar, Ivermec everything!"
I could write a novel on this, but I'm going to try to stop myself here with that particular issue.

If I brought any vet an animal that was underweight and with a deformed jaw, and they told me it was fine, I would RUN. A deformed jaw and weight issues can indicate dozens of potential health problems! If a VET cannot see that...just...wow.

This is from personal experience.

Never believe anything you hear from a coworker at a pet store. Working at a pet store does not mean they know the animals. On the contrary, after working in them for two years, I can assure you that most of my coworkers couldn't tell their @$$ from a hole in the ground. This includes supervisors. This includes tall, pompous, district managers. Pet stores ABOUND with misinformation. They take the cheap route. They do what their suppliers tell them. They do what works for them - not what is always right or proper in the long run.
Believe me. If you think you are learning gold from working at ANY pet store in Edmonton, you need to re-evaluate everything. And don't be surprised at the fact that they will resent you when you come to notice that they do almost everything wrong.

Feel free to PM me on this issue.

[Sheldon & Tori]

i was told he was fine because he was eating and because he was active. but as far as what you said about "learning gold" from a pet store i know that a lot of the stuff they do is wrong. if i didn't need the money (and the discount) so bad i would quit. a lot of the questions i have i ask the people that DO know what they are doing (i.e a breeder that used to work there, a girl that has owned herps for a while, another breeder that buys food from our supplier, and one of our vets that come in to feed our snakes (which i can't figure out why we have a vet come in to feed our snakes considering there are three ppl working there that own snakes themselves). any questions they can't answer i ask on here. speaking of good vets in edmonton.....do u know any? just considering you said that the vets that do pet stores aren't as good as we are told.

[Youkai]

Eating and being active deffinately don't mean the animal is okay. My old pointer ate, ran, played and wagged her tail until the night she died in her sleep. She most certainly was not okay.

Please don't be too offended by my comment. I was going by this quote of yours.

also, working at a pet store i do know the husbandry of these snakes and that's why i took every precaution before combining these three.

Working in a pet store, you used information (MISinformation) you gained there when making choices in housing those animals. I assume the same is also true of those leos, and other herps as well.
Read a lot, ask lots of questions to people on here. Anything you hear at the store, any husbandry techniques they follow...cross reference. You would probably be unpleasantly surprised.

As far as vets, I'd have to call some buddies of mine and ask. I used to have my cousin (an exotic vet) look at my animals, and he's no longer there.

[C.m.pyrrhus]

This thread reminds me of them folks that follow Melissa Kraplan. Here is an example of what that info is like:

The Leopard Gecko is a lizard that comes from Guyana. It lives it life in moist rocky outcroppings and lives off of grapes and salamanders. All are born with the basic tools of survival, but because of man taking them from the wild, their natural populations are being wiped out. An interesting thing is that they will come when their names are called for feeding purposes. An arboreal tank is needed, with a temperature gradient of 55° and a hot spot of 95° with a substrate of sand and pine shavings.
- Meliisa Kraplan-

They show how proud they are of there captive reptiles, give advise to everything, talk about all the great many knowledgable folks they know and in the end cannot even tell the true basic needs for their herps if they were handed husbandry notes from the maker (creator of life, etc) himself.

The thing is, all of your replies seem to give more information to what you are missing in basic herp knowledge. Lets all forget what many people out in the world who have studied herps, but instead listen to those who sell products for companies to make money, or to those that want to ban the keeping of reptiles and give misinformation so that you as a hobbiest make mistakes to further make their point across.

I go as far as I can to tolerate what people find as truth when it comes to herpteculture, but in the end some folks NEVER seem to get the point. I think it would be wise to just take some advise from folks that <b>DO</b> know what they are talking about and just straighten up your mess you have so happily gotten yourself into.

[Sheldon & Tori]

youkai + C.M ---> thnx for all your help.....like you guys said, pet stores do do a lot of things wrong, and being a part of this site has shown me that. i have already changed everything that was wrong with my herps and am now implementing the advice you two have given me to my customers at work. Thnx again for your help and constructive critisim.

[Sheldon & Tori]

and it's not just the advice from you two, a lot of people have helped me out as well. i guess when i joined this site i was a little narrow minded and stubborn. but i got over that and now everything is proper and going well.

[Youkai]

Thanks for listening to us. Sometimes, when you've accepted something as being right for a long time, it's hard not to be deffensive and angry.
Just never be afraid to ask questions. And when lots of people respond the same way, the majority may be right. ;)

happy herping...

[drewlowe]

Ok i really didn't read hardly any of the post but a few. And the corrections that i did see were great. But what concerns me is the so called "white" leo. Looked sick not white. That pale white skinnish body should have been a huge concern!!!!! I'm not a vet and you don't have to listen to a word i say. But i believe that leo was very sick!!!!!!!! I've been down this road before i know what it's like(with parasites that is)!!!! I highly recommend getting a necropsy i personally think it's foolish if you don't get one done!!!!! I also can't belive you would put a sick leo in with a healthy one. so now what ever that leo that passed away had you can guarenty your other leo has it has it right now, but may not show signs of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok enogh of a little rant. I have some questions for you.

Your sick leo that recently passed away. Was it drinking? how much did it actually eat? Did it pass a fecal and a urate/ what did they look like? Did it regurgitate? Did it have a darkish blue/black spot on his belly near the end? Was it laying around all the time with hardly any energy? These are serious questions that i would appreciate you answering.

The reason i'm asking all of these questions is (this is only from personal observations from your pic on the sick one) I personally have gone through "CRYPTO" in leos. I still battle to this day with it and am still waiting a cure. I myself have had 2 geckos pass away from crypto i know signs and side effects and what the leo can look like to the dying days. I also know that some leos can spend the rest of thier life never having syptoms of the parasite. I have 6 leos that i have to suspect of having crypto because 2 cage mates died from crypto (i had a necropsy done to determine the cause). This parasite can lead to devistation. If that sick leo did die from crypto and you had it house with another leo you HAVE to automaticly assume the other leo has it. You also can never breed out those leos again. Cause there is a high chance that crypto can pass to the babies through the egg. Will expain that more if anyone wants to know. If you have any more question feel free to ask.

*** as a side note this is my actually first time i have came directly out and said that i have crypto in my collection. I fully admit yes My leos have it. Me nor my vet know how it got there. Since then i have been educating myself on crypto. I have also stopped breeding my leos and they are in a proper quartine until we can find a cure for crypto which me and my vet are working on currently. I have had the rest of my collection tested with a stomach wash which is sent off to a lab and they all havecame back negative. The leos are in a room by themselfes and they have entirely thier own supplies that my other herps will never come in contact with. It also took me 3 vets and 1 1/2 years later to find a vet that knew what the hell he was talking about. That's right 1 1/2 years all the other vets were saying no your wrong they don't have coccida or crypto (which are direct life cycles) they have round worms (indirect life cycle and not very common for captive bred leos). And come to find out i was right all along.

[Sheldon & Tori]

drewlowe---> there is some confusion as to the sick leo that passed away. the one that passed away was not the snow leopard. it was a leo a girl from work asked me to help. i did not add this one to my collection as i thought it may be sick (seeing as how she lost one other one due to the same thing. i had her leo for about 2 days before it passed away. now for your questions.

1. she was getting water through the mush i was feeding her through the syringe. i also gave her straight water through the syringe as well.

2. in my care she was eating 30mL of mushed wax worms, freeze dried mealies and some leopard gecko food (it's basically just flies) mixed with water. she got this once in the morning and once at night.

3. she did take a crap the day she died. it was very very small and did have a small urate clump attatched to it. so other than being extremely small, it looked normal.

4. she didn't reguritate at all. she did spit up some of the food tho due to too much being in her mouth when she closed it.

5. i didn't notice any blueish black spots on her stomach before she died, but after she died we put her in the freezer (my co-worker wanted her body back) and when i checked her the next day there was a large bluish-black patch on her stomach.

6. she was very lathargic when my co-worker gave her to me. so for the two days i had her she was just laying around with no energy.

hope i answered your questions well enough.

s & t

[drewlowe]

Thank you for answering thosse questions. I would still advise to get a necropsy on the leo that passed away. I would be concerend that it was a parasite that caused the death of the leo and the only way you can find out is by a necropsy and they aren't that expensive. I think i payed about 30-40 a piece on my 2.

Othello has me a bit worried could you possibly take a better pic that i could see. Thats the one that i thought was the one you were talking about. It's a little bit confusing. He doesn't look like a "snow" leo. He looks exactly like Loki and Phoenix about a month before they passed on.

[Sheldon & Tori]

drewlowe ---> as far as sosa goes (the leo that passed away) the girl who owned her told me that it can't be a parasite because if it was she would have noticed it in her one remaining leo. i think that's a load of crap as she has lost two out of three leo's (all three were in the same cage) in about a month (maybe less) to the same thing. i told her if she wanted the body i still had it frozen (it's outside at the moment in a garbage bag - gotta love alberta weather! lol!) but she told me to just toss it in the garbage. i don't know how to convince her that her one remaining leo probably has the same sickness and that it will probably appear soon. The sad part is, she was just named manager of the reptile department at work. she thinks she knows everything about everything tho. like once i told a customer that leo's average life span (in good living conditions) is 20-30 years. well, at least that's what i've found on many many different websites. she proceeded to tell the customer that the lifespan was only 10-20 years, and right in front of me as well. another instance was when she told me our black and white tegu at work was not big enough for pinkie mice. let's just say i have a leo a 1/4 of the size that took a pinkie no problem. needless to say i will be finding a new job somewhere else, just because this girl is going to be in charge of all of our reptiles.

anyway, enough of my ranting......as far as othello goes, i will work on getting another pic of him as soon as i can....it may not be till friday tho as i am working tomorrow and thursday. i hate to say this but i am almost 100% sure that othello is a snow as i was reading the new leopard gecko manual from the herpetocultural library and saw a pic of a snow that looked identical to him. but, other than othello being underweight, he is acting completely normal. he even stopped reguritating after eating lots of food! my girlfriend said he had almost 15 medium-large (4wk) crix to himself! and i didn't see any whole or part crix in the cage tonight.

i do have one question for everyone tho. three out of my eight leo's eat like pigs and shed all the time, but they don't seem to be getting any bigger. i mean, i have one (kahlua) who eats about 10 wax worms a week as well as 6-10 4wk crix a day and hasn't seemed to get any bigger in the past two months. another one (coal) will eat and eat and eat and she doesn't get fat. she just stays skinny (not sickly skinny, healthy skinny). my third one (pandora) is in the same boat as kahlua. he/she (haven't had time to sex it, although about a month ago i tried and it appeared to be female) doesn't seem to be growing either. also, i got her with a regrown tail (only lost it once, however it was cut off right at the base) and that doesn't seem to be growing either. any reasons that these two leo's are eating normally but not growing? and any reasons as to why Coal can't put on any weight?

[Youkai]

Leos are built as differently as people. I have a few leos that are naturally somewhat thin and lanky (at least for leos!) and some that barely eat and are as fat as they come.
The leos that are not growing, how old are they?

I must agree with Drewlowe about your 'snow' leo, however. There is a certain look that sick leos get to them. They often go quite pale. To people who have seen this before, it is quite easy to spot the difference between a pale, sickly gecko and a healthy snow. If and when that leo regains his health, you may be quite surprised at how much color he will gain.

[Sheldon & Tori]

youkai ----> the guy that i got him from said he has looked like that since he got him about 9 years ago. that's why i figured it was just a malnurished snow. but i don't know for sure anymore. i haven't seen any distinct behavioural changes in my other leo's other than they are eating a bit more than they used to and my albino has fattened up a bit. but for $20 or so i will be getting a fecal done on friday anyways.

[drewlowe]

A fecal will not tell you if a leo has crypto, but at least it's a step in the right direction. I would have the vet check out the "snow" leo and ask his opion if that is his "true color" or if he's sick. And if your manager (or whoever the leos owner is) doen't want to get a necropsy done i think i would take it upon myself to have it done knowing that this leo was in my care for awhile. Lets just say that the leo that passed away does in fact have crypto (as an example) That means anything that that leo or you (after touching the leo) came into contact with now has the chance to carry (can't think of the word i want to use there) the crypto parasite, and you may now pass it on to other animals (not only leos can get this). And there is only 2 ways to get rid of the parasite. Trash everything that it came into contact with (EVERYTHING)!!!! or soak in 5% ammonia for at least 30 min. and you still have to throw away anything that can be porus.

You can tell your manager leos just don't up and die for no reason. There has to be a cause and the most likely is parasite and/or a combination of stress. If the leo is a younger age the most susepteble thing would be a parasite. There are other things that could cause it but damn my post are already so long. LOL So i won't go into them here.

This weekend if i have time sheldon & tori i will e-mail you a pic of my leo loki that died of crypto and you will see how she compares to your othello. Even though loki's pic was taken a few weeks till she passed away her color looks exactly like othello. Loki was a melanistic leo she normally was very dark then when crypto took hold and her immune system could no longer battle the parasite she started turning pale sickly white. The pic looks nothing like her at all. You know that leos can carry crypto and it not effect them at all or it can cause them to struggle the rest of their life. I noticed my leos were getting sick (vets at the time thought it was round worms) and 2 of them hung on for at least 1 1/2 years. Then i have 6 more leos that i have to assume have crypto that don't show any signs of being sick at all!!! The surviving leos look great you would never suspect them of having anything but if i introduced a leo with a poor immune system then that leo would suffer the same fate as my 2 that passed away did.

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by Youkai
To people who have seen this before, it is quite easy to spot the difference between a pale, sickly gecko and a healthy snow.

Damn right i have every miserable day burned into my head Forever!!!!!!! That's one reason i answer most of the question about crypto that comes in, because i'm dealing with it first hand. I will be the first to tell you it's NO FUN!!!!! Everyday i check on them to make sure their not dropping any weight (that's one of the first signs.) If they have a slight weight drop i start freaking big time. It also sucks because we are trying experimental meds on them and that causes weight drop.

[Sheldon & Tori]

drewlowe ---> thnx for sending us the pics (soon). if we notice the similarities we will be taking every precaution possible. trust me! we don't want to jeprodize our breeding intentions any so ya. hope to see those pics soon!