Coperhead venom

[Weather1]

I here many people talk about copperheads having mild venom so, what I am just curious about is, if bitten by a copperhead will it be fatal or just make you sick and be very painful if antivenoms are unavailable?

(No I do not plan on being bitten)

Thanks for time:confused:

[Scotty Allen]

I can testify personally to how much it hurts. Many years ago, I got one fang in the tip of an index finger from a baby. My finger swelled to the point I thought it was going to burst and within 36 hrs., I was black and blue from my fingertip, right up my arm and down to nearly my waist on the bitten side. I swelled up to my elbow. No, I did not receive any antivenom and the swelling was gone within a couple of days. I cracked three ribs this summer, and the pain was nothing compared to that bite.

[Matt]

many people testify that it is one of the most painful bites from a snake, like scotty mentioned.

typically copperhead bites wont be fatal, but there is a possibility of becoming necrotic, so you could lose a finger.

there is always of possibility of going into anaphylatic shock from the bite because of an allergic reaction. This is much more dangerous than the bites is, and could wind up being fatal

[Crotalus75]

I was nicked on my right pointer finger with both fangs by an adult copperhead (Agkistrodon contortrix phaeogaster) a few years ago. It felt like I had been hit with a hammer and my finger immediately started to swell. Within 1 to 1.5 hours I felt disoriented, speech was slurred and I had a good deal of swelling in my hand. I did not feel it was necessary to go to the hospital, but pressure from family members won out. After a couple of hours in the emergency room the swelling was intense and had nearly reached my shoulder. At this point I didn't feel "bad" per se; I felt more like I was drunk. Anti-venom is usually not necessary for A.c. bites and this case was no exception. I had finally convinced the staff to release me, but then things started to get worse. I became highly uncomfortable and agitated. I began to have mild auditory halucinations and intense nausea. I ended up practically vomiting my guts up in the ER restroom. I remember thinking that this was the worst pain that I had ever felt. Needless to say I was not allowed out of the hospital and I was kept overnight for observation and released in the morning. I suffered very little long term damage. My right arm was markedly weaker than my left for a couple of years. There has NEVER been a recorded death from copperhead envenomation in this state (MO). In spite of the fact that some of the symptoms stated here sound rather unpleasant, they are really very mild compared with other Crotalids and even others in the genus. I should also make a note that I was trying to capture this animal (which I did in spite of my bite:) ) and that these are gentle, non-agressive animals when left alone.

[Weather1]

Thanks guys for your stories. They were entertaining and informative.

[shaggybill]

Crotalus, some of those symptoms sound mildly neurotoxic. Do you think that the western subspecies of agkistrodon could be picking up a neurotoxic element to their venom? I know this seems to be happening in a lot of rattlers...

[Crotalus75]

I have never heard of neurotoxins in Agkistrodon, but then again I am no expert (yet!). :atom:

[BWSmith]

I am not familiar with neurotoxins present to any extent in coppers either. It is becoming more common Crotalus however.

I don't think you would catagorize Copperhead venom so much as "Mild". I think a better term is "Nonlethal"

[shaggybill]

Thats what Im saying... Could it be that rattlers arent the only pit vipers developing a trace of neurotoxins in their venom? From what I have read, (and I could be wrong here) neurotoxins first started showing up in the western species of rattlesnakes, ie southern pacific, mojave, etc. Could this trend be picking up in the other venomous species out west? I know Missouri isnt really out west, but the Osage is as northwest as you can get in the copperhead distribution.

Please keep in mind I am only speculating here.

[rhodostom]

Crotalus (or anyone),

I know there have never been any deaths here at home, but
when was the last recorded death from a copperhead?

Anytime in recent history?

-rhodostom

[Matt]

not completely sure......but i thought there was a recorded death from copperhead in the 1940's

not sure though

[Crotalus75]

I have no idea, but I would like to see some statistics myself.

[BWSmith]

I think you are correct Matt. The 40's sounds about right. But Copperheads have taken their share of fingers.

Well I guess since I made a post on another site relating to the evolution of venom a week ago, I will post one here too.

[shaggybill]

I have read a few reports that say there have been no deaths attributed to copperheads in the last 40 years. Being that there are on average 8,000 venomous bites per year in the US, and that most of these are from copperheads, you have at least 4,000 copper bites per year times 40 years. That means of the last 160,000 copper bites, none have resulted in death. And it is safe to say that there have been more than 160,000 copper bites in the last 40 years.

[SCReptiles]

I believe there was at least one copperhead related death in the 1980’s. It was a patient of Dr Glass. For those of you who do not know that name, he came up with the theory he could treat envenomations thru surgery, rather then anti-venom therapy. Well, he was wrong. If you ever get a chance to hear Jim Harrison lecture, he goes into great detail on Glass, including many photos, including some autopsy photos of some of his patients.

[BWSmith]

I don't consider that one to be "death by Copperhead", it is "Death by poor medical care"

[SCReptiles]

Yeah, I agree. But you can make that same argument about most North American snake deaths.

[chas*e]

If you are bitten by a copperhead the medical protocol is (if no anaphylactic shock) a topical antiseptic ,an anti-inflamatory to lessen edema(swelling) , and observation(for necrosis)...that is what I was told by a doctor whom is knowledgable with A.g envenomations...the pain is intense I have been told....ps...I agree with Matt ..wasn't there a death in the 40s.

[Jeremy]

I recived a one fang bite by a neonate intergrade contortrix/mokasen on the tip of my right index finger and experinced edema all the way down to the wrist, includeing the thumb and entire right side of my right hand. There was also a bruseing line that formed all of the way up my arm and underneath my arm pit. The swelling persisted for about 2 weeks and eventualy subsided. All of the skin surrounding the entry point, about dime size patch on the tip of my index finger sloughed off and that was one of the grossest thing I have ever seen!! A lovely pustual formed just prior to that which had to be poped and drained for a few days. After that, the skin came off. Eventuly it all healed and the only lasting effects are a numbness if you will right at the tip of the finger. I belive a few nerves were fried and although there is feeling, it is very dull.

The Agkistrodon genus is renouned for major localized effects and many people in the western hemisphere have lost digits as a result. Of cource coppers would be on the low end of this, surpassed by cottons and cantils. I belive cantil bites drop for drop are alot worse but due to the potnteialy large size of cottons, they would have to be potential the worst to be bitten by. BTW, this extream hemotoxicity can also be seen in all of the closely related genera to Agkistrodon. Deniagkistrodon and Calloselasma are probaly the worst, many times causeing hemo effects of the entire bitten limb with massive necrosis. I have seen some pictures of bites by these genera and they can cause damage Daboia would be very proud of!!

Welp, just my little tid bit o the subject. Dont gett bitten guys, copperheads bites hurt more then anything you have ever exoerinced!! (unless youhave let a Crotalus get ahold of you:-)

All the best,
J

[Crotalus75]

Almost everyone that has been bitten by a copperhead tells of experiencing at least some type of tissue damage. When I was bitten by that phaeogaster I had practically NONE! This really makes me wonder how the A.C. subspecies differ in venom composition.

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Ask me in a couple months after we finish the study ;-)

Cheers
B

[Crotalus75]

Are you doing any tests specifically with A.c. phaeogaster? They have an odd range that is mostly confined to Missouri with some spill over into neighboring states. It would be interesting to see how they compare to the others. Let me know if you need any venom samples. I may be able to get you a few drops. :)

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

We'll be having a look at the different copperhead subspecies. It should be interesting to see if there is an appreciable difference between them.

Cheers
B

[BWSmith]

Cool, I'll send ya some Broadband as well. 3 are from the same clutch.

[BlkMambaVenom]

Wow.. interesting stories as well as some interesting info on copperhead bites. Its nice to read some posts from people that have experienced it. I must say this entire board is very cool and has some intelligent people on it. :)