Venomoids and digestion.........

[Gregg M]

Ok guys and girls, as most of you guys know, I had been keeping one venomoid gaboon viper that I had rescued a couple of months back........ Well the poor little girl died last night....... I will tell you the events leading up to its death.......... It started to gain weight as I fed it........ It was doing pretty well for a little while........ Then I started to notice half digested mice in its stool........ Now she was being kept exactly like my hot gaboons that have been living, breeding and thriving for years....... She lost all the weight she put on....... She was always eager to eat but for some reason could not fully digest her intake......... Why do you think that is???? I feel that highly necrotic, hemotoxic venom is used for more then just killing prey........ I now strongly feel it has a pretty big part in the digestion proccess........ I know this is only one snake and I should not jump the gun but look at what I have in front of me........ I have not lost an established animal in years......... I think if you alter a snake by taking out its glands you might have to change the way you keep it also......... If I kept this animal in a hotter cage, would it have been able to digest its food better???? Maybe, but then you run the risk of over heating and dehydrating the snake....... Gaboons can not take high temps for too long....... And they can dehydrate very fast if not kept right....... Well that is my story......... Let me know what you guys think....... Thanks for reading.......

[skin78]

First of all that s*cks mate ,.. personally I think the hemotoxic venon is also used for digestion. It brakes down the preyitem so digestion will go faster. I don'tr say that venomoids allways will die but I think venomoids with normally hemotoxic venom have a bigger chance of dieing.

Just my opinion.

Cheers Niek

[Mustangrde1]

Gregg I am sorry to hear that. It is just another case why this practice should be outlawed.

Your's is not the first case though I have heard. Are you going to have a necropsis done on the animal? I ask this because I am curious if it could possibly had internal problems. So far I have had 3 people tell me the same story you have just experianced. All three were void only one though had the necrops done and that snake was 100% fine except for it had no venom to help digest. This animal was a 5 year old and had the surgery done at just over 4 years of age. from time of surgery to time of death was approx 6 to 7 months.

[ETET]

Sorry about to hear the loss of your gabby. It always sucks to hear people making and selling venomoids.

ETET

[Gregg M]

Thanks guys.......
Scott, The snake is at the vets office as we speak....... I will let you know how things go with that....... It is important to have this done especially if you have a few animals in a collection........ She was housed far from the rest....... Infact I did not have her in the hot room......... I should have the results by tuesday of next week..........

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Just to add, I know a guy who has several gabs and a few crots for as long as I known him(several yrs) and they are all -moids, and none of them have any troble digesting.. Also, didnt you say this snake was malnutrient and in poor health period when you got him several weeks ago? I'm highly doubting it was just the alteration.. I doubt Hot snake's digestive system is that different from any other snake..

[Gregg M]

Yeah well I also said that she was gaining weight and eating without a problem....... I will not jump to anything until the necro comes back........ What would cause a snake to pass half digested mice Kroc guy???? Like I said she was being kept EXACTLY the same as my hot gaboons....... I have brought back alot of hot gaboons and rhinos from near death........ They looked much worse then the venomoid did when she died........ See the thing is the snakes have evolved a certain way and I cant see why the digestive system cant be different from other snakes....... Some animals can consume poisonous plants and others cant....... Right????? I, along with many others feel that vemon is important to the digestive system....... That is just something pro-venomoiders will never admit to........ I could be wrong but we will see what the necro says.........

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Looks can be deceiving, especially with herps.. Did you have the Gab. tested when you got it? There are a number of Pathenological reasons for it doing what it did, as well stress, or maybe overheated being not all animals of the same species or ssp care much for the same housings as another. Just a thought on the latter. Also, being you said (I think, I may be wrong) it was WC so you never know what was going on inside the snake.

See the thing is the snakes have evolved a certain way and I cant see why the digestive system cant be different from other snakes.......

I'm not saying that a venomous snake's digestive system isn't different, though I don't see why it would be. I'm just saying I doubt its that different that it doesn't fully digest a rodent of proper size, especially when there are -moid keepers who have never had this problem and doesn't have a feeding/degestive problem record. Though this is people I know, and know about. I'm just doubting that much of a drastic digestive change from one snake to another, (Mammal eating specimens). Then again, Im no digestive tract scientist.

Some animals can consume poisonous plants and others cant....... Right?????

True, however most similar animals(Family/Genus/Sp./ssp.) can eat the same things, not to mention mammals are a more complexed area.

I, along with many others feel that vemon is important to the digestive system
I feel alot of things with similar people as well, but doesn't mean we are 100% correct or if we are even right. And for the record, I do believe there is some degree to digestion and venoms but not enough to do as the above proclaimed. There has to be another problem either working with or excluding the venom detail. or it would happen to most -moids.
Not to mention this has happened to hots as well. I have one in the freezer, though it's the only case I know of because the people on the ks hot fourms are truey bastards, but Yea. I don't see why it would only happen in the two cases that just read, while others who have had -moids for quite some time have a feeding record health very similar to hots, but that's just me. Oh, I'm not for or against venmoids. I tend to look at the pro and cons of each side as with an other topic, herp related or no.
Also, when you do get the paperwork back, could you by chance scan it for us all to see? I'm very interested in he results and causing reasons.
Sorry for the loss,
Xain

[Gregg M]

Hey Xain,
The snake was CBB....... I know who the guy was that did the operation and from what I gather he only uses CBB animals....... I do not have a scanner but will do what I can for you and everyone else on this forum to put the info out....... This would be some very good info for all to see........ Oh and I hear what you are saying about the people on the KS forum.......LOL....... They all have their noses in the air for some reason........ I have been keeping hots for longer then some of them and they still think they are better then everyone........ Like they have nothing more to learn or something...... Enough on that thing........ Well Xain, you gave me something to think about untill the necro comes back....... And thanks for the words........
Gregg

[Gregg M]

Oh and it was not overheated........ It was being kept in the mid 80s and had a cool area in the cage with hides and everything else......... Stress could be a factor, but from a CCB that has been estabished??? I dont know....... It was taking food with no problems....... I think a stressed gaboon would not take offered prey and just hide all day and night........ Nothing seems to be more pissed off and stressed then my puff adders....... I have to put a blanket over the front of the cage so they stop rearing up and striking at nothing....... They are eating and digesting just fine....... Thanks again Xain.......

[cobraman]

Do you guys mean cytotoxin instead of hemotoxin in terms of the digestgion process?

[Vanan]

Might sound off topic but was the void gabby being fed f/t or or fresh killed? Might make a difference since alot of tissue is degenerated during the process of freezing. A sad story either way. Sorry to hear about your loss Gregg, especially since you tried your best in helping it.

[Scales Zoo]

Sheila and I have openly speculated about venomoid vipers and their digestion.

We know people who let their hot snakes strike a live rodent, and feed said rodent to the venomoid.

I find it intersting, that many vipers inject venom as they eat the rodent. This would be a waste of venom, unless it helps with digestion, the way I see it.

I really think a study should be done on this. Do you have pictures of feces with rodent in it? I'd love to see them!

Ryan and Sheila

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Hi mate

Sorry to hear about the loss of a very nice snake. However, I don't think it was due to lack of venom. First off, I have personally witnessed snakes that were devenomised young that had no growth differences. In any case, most captive hots are fed dead prey and many of the lazy little bastards don't even bother to envenomate anymore, just sucking the prey down! Obviously they are not useing their venom for pre-digestion in such cases.

Take care
B

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Greg, no doubt in my mind that it was well taken care of. I'm honestly as stupped as you are. But Vanan brought up a point that has never crossed my mind.
Now I could be wrong but wouldn't the animal need to be alive in the first place for the venoms to move through the animal and to do what it is ment to do?
Xain

[Gregg M]

Hey Bryan, you are the man I have been waiting for to chime in on this topic....... Its about time.....LOL...... I do not think all venomous snakes need venom as a digestive tool........ However I do think that snakes with strong hemotoxic/cytotoxic venom may need it more than others........ But hey I am no venom doc......LOL........ Just someone that loves these animals and wants to learn all I can about them......... That Is why I posted this....... I wanted to see what everyone thinks as I respect all of the people (and their opinion) who have posted so far........ I have never seen this in all my years keeping hots....... I just dont get it........ Especially with a venom so necrotic as gaboon venom....... That is why I am thinking the way I am........ Vanans point could be valid but I fed this snake frome the same batch I feed all my snakes of similar size........ They do get fesh killed sometimes, but mostly frozen thawed........ Xain, as some vipers walk prey down their throats, they may inject alittle venom each time........ That may be how they spread the venom around the body while the prey is dead........ I am sure it needs to be done after a hot kills a rat its self....... I do not think 8 seconds would be long enough for venom to make its way through an adult rats entire circulartory system...........

[Vanan]

Hmm...could it be possible that being in captivity, they're bacterial fauna in their gut has compensated over time to be more able to digest prey without venom present already? Sorry, this is in reference to Doc's observations of captive hots not really using their venom. Might be something which adapted over a few months or even years. We all know hots conserve their venom as much as they can. Could be that they realised slowly that the rodents it's being fed don't require that much venom or even any venom eventually. And since it's a gradual thing, the digestion process is slowly adapting to more undigestable prey due to the lack of or lesser amount of venom. Now on the other hand, taking a snake used to pounding its prey with cytotoxic/myotoxic or hemotoxic enzymes and making it eat a full prey item without the venom might just be too much for it's system. A good analogy is eating chili, if you'e not used to it, boy you better leave that fan running in the washroom! ;)

[Gregg M]

Hey Vanan,
As I was reading your post I was thinking something along the the same lines....... It could have very well been a shock to the poor little girls system........ Which makes me see more into why this "practice" should be done away with....... I think if this gaboon had been left hot I am sure it would still be alive today...... Especially if it was in my care....... We shall see what comes back from the lab this week....... Thanks to all for you opinions........

[Vanan]

Keep us informed. :)

[fatboy]

Gregg, I really appreciate this post. Chuck, Joe and I have been at it about this for a long time now. I have always thought that it wouldn't affect the digestion process. Looking forward to the results.

[reverendsterlin]

I'm with Dr. Fry on this, I don't think it has to do with lack of venom. Gregg, how long was it between feeding and defication. I know my gabys only go once every couple of months and are on a 7-10 day feeding schedule(well they are young animals). Seems to me like your animal was defecating pretty rapidly after feeding and that may be a clue to the problem.