venom question

[skin78]

Hi guys I was in a discussion with a friend of mine.. I want to start with Trimersurus albolabris and he wants to start with Sistrurus miliarius. Now we read on the net that a bite from a miliarius will give you pain and high temp but nothing more and I read on the net that a bite from a albolabris will give you pain and swelling.. Now the question is.. Witch snakes vanom is stronger?? and what will a bite from a albolabris do with you..

cheers Niek

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Depending on whether or not you end up with a true Trimeresurus albolabris (or any number of superficially similar Asian green tree viper) the bites may vary and ditto with the response to antivenom. A big Trim could really smack you around hard as some of them can be quite sizeable animals. That said, they are usually very good captives and a reasonable starter snake. Sistrurus miliarius bites are less of a concern but they are very aggressive and neonates can be a nightmare to feed.

A better starter snake would be any of the various Agkistrodon contortrix subspecies. They are hardy, rather attractive animals with relatively mild venom.

Cheers
Bryan

Cheers
B

[Bartman]

whats the least venomous snake you could buy? Do all snakes of some sort of venom in them, just the ones we call venemous are venemous to us? Like does a boa have enough venom to like paralize a mouse or something?

[cobraman]

Adam, I may stand corrected on this one, but I am not aware of any Boas being venomous. I think they are still constrictors. If you are looking for a venomous snake that probably won't kill you, consider the copper heads, or pigmy rattlers.

[Gregg M]

Even the mildly venomous snakes should be taken very seriously....... The whole point is to not get bitten in the first place....... Trims, coppers and pigmys can all put you in the hospital and have caused human fatalities........ Even if the venom itself is not strong enough to kill you an alergic reaction can........

[skin78]

oke that is clear to me. I know that not getting bitten is the best and I intend not to get bitten :). BUt I was just wondering witch snake has the badest venoum of those two.. But the coppers??? I read that they are quit a venemous specie.

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Hi Bartman

Amongst the advanced snakes (Colubroidea), which include the various 'colubrids', vipers, elapids, atractaspids, etc. they are technically all venomous (this doesn't mean all are dangerous though). The primitive snakes such as pythons/boas, etc. don't have any venom. We just published a study on exactly this
http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/BGF_Colubroidea_RCMS.pdf

Niek, the drop for drop relative toxicity is only a part of it, the amount delivered must also be considered. All of that said, even a smallish viper can in the least potentially cause you to lose a finger. As for the copperheads, the American ones (Agkistrodon contortrix) are vipers with relatively mild venoms and rarely responsible for lethal envenomations, the Australian ones (Austrelaps species) are elapids with highly toxic venom and much more dangerous bites. Shows how misleading common names can get.

Cheers
B

[chas*e]

Personnally, I like Agkistrodon c. Laticinctus(Broad banded copperheads).....as a starter. Asian Vine snakes are good as a first starter and their bite is relatively mild (headache and nausea) but a Sistrurus miliarus bite could cause a little more trouble than that, depending on volume of venom injected in the hit(bite). You could loose fingers and tissue......well, it is up to you the way you go....

[skin78]

hi chas*e well I am a bit cofused right know.. I heard of an other hot keeper albolabris would be a perfect beginners hot. And I have read some stuff where the Agkistrodon is not that nice to begin with.. but now you say it is the other way around.. But oke that's your oppinion. But I want to start with a nice hot ( and love the albolabris) and don't want tobegin with a snake that will cause big demage when it will go wrong not that I think that it will go wrong but you'll never know

[JoeBradley]

Trims, coppers and pigmys can all put you in the hospital and have caused human fatalities

I was not aware of any documentation of a fatality from a pigmy bite.

[BWSmith]

I was not aware of any documentation of a fatality from a pigmy bite.
I am not aware of any either. I believe that there have been some close calls with children however, but no fatalities. If memory serves, there has not been a fatality from a Copper since the advent of AV, at least not one documented. As with any snakebite stats, many bites go unreported. However both have been attributed to the loss of tissue and digits. You get a great deal of respect for a Pygmy if it bites a pink mouse and in a few hours, the mouse is nothing more than a puddle.

I would never bank that Pygs or Trims will give you
pain and high temp but nothing more
There havebeen nasty bites from both and niether should be taken lightly.

[skin78]

I agree with you that neither should be taken lightly.. No snake should be venemous or not alle snakes deserve respect. I have made up my mind to get albolabris and my mate will get pigmy we live near eachother so help is near when we need it :)

[BWSmith]

Have you tracked down the nearest Antivenin for each species yet? Be sure to have protocols on hand along with your medical history. And Venom 101 should now be your bible. Myself, Chuck, and several others have copies of venom 101 if ya'll need one, since it is no longer available online.

[JoeBradley]

If memory serves, there has not been a fatality from a Copper since the advent of AV, at least not one documented.

Jim Harrison out of KY has photos of an autopsy done on a child that died after being bitten from a copperhead. According to the records cause of death was contributed to the bite, but Jim feels that improper treatment was the real reason she did not make it. Other than this questionable one, I have not heard of any of fatalities contributed to a copperhead.

Joe

[SCReptiles]

Have you tracked down the nearest Antivenin for each species yet?
We most always suggest the copperhead as the first venomous snake due to factors such as: disposition, venom potency, venom yield, and availability of anti-venom. The last usually being the strongest selling point. Copperhead AV (CroFab) is widely available in the US, however, since you live in Europe, that is not the case. Most likely you will have to import AV for any venomous snake you keep. In that case, the tree viper may be better for you as I am certain the AV is cheaper then CroFab. At $900 a vile, I think CroFab is the most expensive AV on the market. There is an inexpensive AV being produced in Mexico (Bioclon), which is suppose to treat all N American pits, but I am not aware of any tests with copperhead venom. I will feel 100% comfortable with it until more tests have been completed.

[skin78]

Originally posted by BWSmith
Have you tracked down the nearest Antivenin for each species yet? Be sure to have protocols on hand along with your medical history. And Venom 101 should now be your bible. Myself, Chuck, and several others have copies of venom 101 if ya'll need one, since it is no longer available online.

we are trying to get to an serumbank but here in Holland there are some problems with that.. In germany is enough antivenom. But we are trying to get our hands on that. SOrry for asking but what is the venom 101?? and so no we haven't got it so please send it :) if you can send it by email please do so to niek_hofman@yahoo.com.

cheers

[SCReptiles]

Venom 101 is too large to transfer on a yahoo or hotmail email. Will have to use your ISP provided email.

[skin78]

How large is it?? I have an softhome account .. niek1@softhome.net maybe that will work? I can get very large mails on that acount..

[cobraman]

Brian, just FYI, there was a case of a person that died after a pigmy bite, BUT his death was from Anaphylactic shock. I also heard of a geriatric that died after a copperhead bite, but I don't know the details of that case.

[SCReptiles]

Its 3 megs. I will try to send it to this address. Thanks

[BWSmith]

Hmmm, those 3 case studies (2 Pygmy bites and a Copper bite) would be interesting case studies to look at.

[skin78]

thanx +' just another question.. I have seen some pics of people handling a albolabris with thick gloves on..- Aren´t there fangs long enough to bite trough those gloves== Also a Belgian guy sells these animals and says antivenom is not nessacery only a shot of adrenaline. The shot of adrenaline is needed when you are allergic to the venom.. This sounds like a lot of bull to me . He also said there isn´t a antivenom against albolabris venom..

[skin78]

I just looked at those copperheads and they are really beautifull animals.. ±' but I still will go with the Trimersurus

[BWSmith]

Was it a Trim that got it's fangs through the Midwest gloves? I remember it was an arboreal viper, but the species slips my mind. Also, do not trust any gloves as a safe handling. I will go through my Exotic species protocol book and see what is there for Trims. I am not very well read onthe exotic species protocols since I rarely deal with them anymore.

[skin78]

I have asked him again right away if it is true those animals are not that toxic that antivenom is needed and he responded again with no. So I hope someone can help me out here.

[skin78]

o and by the way wa it not Marc O´shea that was bitten bij an Trim`. on a bote ?? the animal bit through a sack????

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Hi Skin,

A bite by a decent sized T. albolabris (or any other large Trimeresurus for that matter) could certainly require antivenom. Anyone who says otherwise is not exactly up to speed in the area. The Thai Red Cross does make a green tree viper antivenom. However, you are rather unlikely to be getting the same species they used in the making of the antivenom, consequently your mileage may vary.

Cheers
B

[skin78]

so what does this mean that tha antivenoum I will try to get will not be working if I got bitten???

[skin78]

screptiles thanx for the email :) really appreciate it :)

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Hi mate

Possibly yes since I would be very suprised if most of the Trimeresurus albolabris offered for sale were actually T. albolabris (the taxonomy of this genus is a mess and T. albolabris is a convenient dumping label for exporters/importers to use). Further to that, the Thai Red Cross antivenom is made using only the Thai snakes, where your snakes originated from could be virtually anywhere in SE Asia. Even if they are indeed T. albolabris, regional variation in venom composition has been shown to have a tremendous effect upon the relative neutralisation by antivenom. That said, I would still expect some level of cross-reactivity by the antivenom, it might just take a bit more than for a Thai snake.

Cheers
B

[skin78]

I really appreciate this guys all the info.. I have asked some people here but some aren't that friendly when you ask these questions or say that if I don't know those answers yet I shouldn't keep those snakes. Butr I am not keeping them yet thats why i want to know as much as possible about them.

[Gregg M]

Brian and Joe, I heard of two fatalities from pigmy bites....... Like I said even if the venom itself is not enough to kill you other complications can....... That is why I say never take a hot lightly even if they are mildly venomous........ I wish I could find the documentation on this....... But who knows how true the info is........ What the heck do I know.....LOL

[JoeBradley]

Guess we learn something new every day. I would like to see the paperwork on these bites. It sounds like Anaphylactic shock is almost more dangerous than the venom. I guess the best defense against complications is to not get bit.
Joe

[BWSmith]

I am curious if the anphylactic shock was from the venom or the antivenin.

[herpetological]

The Sisturus(Pygmy's) are a bit less forgiving as far as handling goes. Very aggressive and quick to bite. Bite's are extremely painful and case in some cases massive tissue damage. Always, some necrosis! The Albolabris are a little easier to hook and less prone to biting. However, i've seen some cases of "bad" bites from them. The Agkistrodon(Copperheads) I've always found to be very easy to work with.(Not all the Agkistrodons are however.Other species/ssp.) From what I understand in the three fatality cases mentioned one had a heart condition and the other two were cases of anaphylactic shock. Treatment is always a factor in snake bites. My worst bite was a Canbrake from the "Outer Banks". These have a very potent combination venom.(That area) I was in the critical care unit for 4 days and my heart stopped twice.... More from improper administration of aniti-venom than the bite. Long story..... Also, when comparing venoms there are many factors involved....size of specimen, health, areas collected(hot belts I.E. Mojave's and Canebrakes) Also, are these people comparing experience with "dry bites" etc? The actual envenomation process affects the results of each bite. Only if you actually compare a large sample from many snakes in the laboratory(as Dr. Fry has.) Can you get a break down as the the LD50. Even then you have to compare regional differences. I would opt out on the pygmy's as a first snake. The N.A. Copperheads would be my first choice. The aboreal viper second. Just my thoughts! Thanks Ray G. HBR

[ETET]

Skin78,

I've been in Hong Kong an China for years. Trimeresurus albolabris is a quite common snake people will encounter like rattler/copper head in North America. People do get bit from them, they do go to hospital for treatment but seldom use AV as most bites have localized symptoms only. As Dr. Fry said, because of different origin of the snake the AV from Thailand may not be absolutely effective for those from Asia. I heard China have AV made for albolabris but have to check out which company make it. From the info in China, the death rate is around 1% from albolabris bite compare to 80% from bungarus fasciatus (another local snake in Asia) bite.

ETET

[herpetological]

Yeah I should imagine that Bungarus(Kraits) would have a high mortality. As far as handling they are fairly easy to work with...during the day...Thanks Ray G.HBR

[skin78]

ETET thanks for the info :) I have some papers from a friend of mine who has kept them so I can read the next 3 months LOL It's a lot heheheh.

[ETET]

Skin 78,

Finally find the info of AV in China, Shanghai Serum Bio-tech Co., Ltd. make AV of local species. They don't have a specific one for albolabris, but they suggest deinagkistrodon acutus AV may use to treat envenomation of albolabris bite. Their web page- www.serum-china.com (they have an english version but info not complete as the chinese version).

ETET :)

[skin78]

thanx etet