Hot Keepers Policing Themselves

[BWSmith]

This issue has come up very often. And Chuck's mentioning it brought it back into the front of my head. Most keepers agree that we need to police ourselves so that herp-ignorant lawmakers don't. But it seems that everytime a discussion arises about it, it stays an abstract idea. Perhaps it is time to solidify precisely what needs to be done, should be done, should not be done, and how to do it most effectively. We have all found methods that are not effective and we have found some that are not. At this time I really only have time to present the issue without delving too deep in it. I will dive in tonight.

[Snakesafe]

It's as simple as this, if hot keepers don't police themselves we will eventually lose most, if not all, of our abilities to keep legally. There are a few people that can and probably will cause a negative impact the hot keeping. My wife was just telling me a story that our real estate agent shared with her. The real estate agent saw my screen saver, and since she is not a herp fan, she commented on it and about a house she was in a day or two ago that housed a rattlesnake and a copperhead. This was in Tennessee, and I doubt the people had a permit. Now if one of them gets bit it doubles the negative publicity. 1. Venoumous bite and 2. breaking the law. And we all know the press would have a field day, then the lawmakers get involved.

I think it is a great idea for the herp community to police itself. I think there are enough herp societies and keepers that some formof self policing could be set up. Trust me, as I deal with regulations and regulators daily, it is in our best interest. I will be interested in hearing thoughts on this, especially from BW and Chuck....Can't wait.

[unBOAlievable]

For the most part quite a few of us already police ourselves, by means of not bringing unwanted attention to our hobby, trying to make newcomers understand the seriousness involved, using proper handling tools, using secure cages and having a proper venomous room. The problem is there is no basic order of laws for us to follow other than the State which we live in and these laws are getting more constrictive as time passes. So basically it requires more than just policing ourselves it comes down to the need of an organization to police the whole community. The organization would have to make a set of laws within which the whole community would have to follow and if someone is out of compliance their rights revoked. It has been said the public views us all the same be it irresponsible or responsible if this is true then that is how the government views us to, so somewhere along the way we have to make them understand their is a difference.

The government is tough so we need an organization that is tougher.

[SCReptiles]

The venomous herpiculture 10 commandments
I. Thou shall not give position of any venomous reptile to an unqualified person
II. Thou shall keep all venomous reptiles in lockable and escape resistant cages
III. Thou shall use safety equipment when working venomous reptiles
IV. Thou shall seek training from experienced keepers prior to getting a venomous reptile
V. Thou shall take the time to train a new keeper if asked
VI. Thou shall not use venomous reptiles to “show off”
VII. Thou shall follow all local venomous by laws
VIII. Thou shall not recruit. The hobby is growing too fast on its own.
IX. Thou shall not advertise. The general public needs not know what you have.
X. Thou shall formulate a plan in the case of an envenomation. Include bite protocols and the nearest source of anti-venom.

[fatboy]

Not bad Chuck. I thought BW was going to get in on this further last night.....what happened to him? BW did you take a hit?

[BWSmith]

Sorry, I have been sick as hell and the antibiotics are kicking my butt. I started on one earlier and got busy at work and lost everything I wrote. I like the commandments.

[BWSmith]

ACK!!!!! I give up. I finally finished a HUGE reply and hit the wrong utton and closed the window rather than minimizing it. I give up.

[Snakesafe]

Dude...I think we all know where you stand... and it isn't a bad idea. I like the 10 commandments too...Maybe something to post on the website Chucky???

[Scales Zoo]

It has been my observation that the good hot keepers are not the ones requiring policing. Most of the hot keepers I have been in contact and conversation with are some of the most diligently disciplined people I will ever know. It is the amateur hot-heads who have to be policed, and even shut down, due to their lack of knowledge and understanding. Most of these individuals have not been properly informed or educated, and have no business keeping hots. It is people like these who cause the professionals who practice due diligence so much grief.

The 10 commandments are great, and I beleive most serious hot keepers live by that creed anyways.

If there is one quality that stands out above all others when it comes to serious hot keeping - it is PATIENCE. This forum has proven that above all, the likes of Gregg, Matt, BW and Ray have the utmost in patience, due to the challenges involved in their career/hobby. Keep up the good work guys, we still have a lot to learn from you!

Sheila

[Mustangrde1]

Chuck Great commandments. may I have your permission to post them on my webpage.

Scott

[SCReptiles]

Chuck Great commandments. may I have your permission to post them on my webpage.
Sure dude, everyone here has full permission to post any of my pictures or comments.

[Mustangrde1]

Thank you .Will do that as soon as AOHELL allows me to get back in the page.

[Snakesafe]

Chuck...Some of your comments shouldn't be on websites...

[chas*e]

Chuck excelent commandments....I agree with all but one...VII

another Chuck

[Scales Zoo]

This is Ryan here.

I haven't posted much in the venomous forums, Sheila usually says everything that needs to be said from this household.

I thought Chucks 10 commandments were really good. I hope you can learn to live by all of them some day Chuck.

I really liked an old post BW did regarding the information he kept on each snake in case a bite ever occured. We will follow that kind of protocal should we ever keep venemous in the future (but hopefully BW will be here to work with them, and teach me)

I'd really like to see his list he had typed up.

BW, I know your pain. I too have typed up a really good long post, which I could never recreate - just to lose it because I hit a wrong button. I now always type up the long, killer posts on microsoft, spell check them, then post them.

Please work on a self policing guide, and release it to people who are going to, or already work with hots. The information will be helpfull, and I believe it will reduce the amount of incidents in the future from hot keepers.

I've met a few people, and have friends who have met people, who didn't seek treatment because of the bad publicity it would cause other hot keepers. I wish they wouldn't get bit in the first place, and think that a good instruction guide would have an emphisis on how not to get bit, and then tips for when you get bit.

Sheila never wants to look after venomous, but I would enjoy breeding snakes, so the babies could go to be milked at medical research and production labs. I feel there are so many cures that can be found in the venom of snakes that are going to one day be extinct.

Ryan

[SCReptiles]

I thought Chucks 10 commandments were really good. I hope you can learn to live by all of them some day Chuck.
First off, who are you? Second, why would you come to the venomous forum and insult me, I do not go to the gater snake forums and insult you?
And to your comments, I simply let my record speak for itself. I have been keeping hots for 15 years and field working them before that. I have never been bit. None of my snakes I have ever bitten anyone or escaped their cage! I have trained many people, none of which have ever been bit. I currently have four trainees, of which none have been bit. If everyone in venomous herpiculture could match my record, then we would not face the problems we are facing today.

[GI Joe]

I just don't get it. It seems that time after time the posts get insulting. If you know Chuck is not living up to his own rules then email him and tell him. If you know he is endangering others tell everyone, but vague insulting comments are counterproductive.

BTW, I kept hots for 5 years and never got bit either.
jeff

[T.O-SK8TER]

Chuck, that guy was totally rude, I think he was talking about your avatar of your Gaboon.

IX. Thou shall not advertise. The general public needs not know what you have.

But hey, I could care less I love seeing pictures of others snakes. Keep up the good work Chuck!

[BWSmith]

ok, I was going to let this all be, but since this has taken a turn anyway I really need to address something that has really been bothering me.

VIII. Thou shall not recruit. The hobby is growing too fast on its own.

I agree with this statement 100%. But something has not set right with me. First, 4 trainees is ALOT! Particularly for the TN/GA line where at best case you can only keep 7 species (as opposed to FL, for example). I don't know anyone that has had that many people in training at one time (perhaps one of the big keepers in FL). What are the odds that 4 people all decide at the same time that they want to keep hots and all in the same area? Much less 3 working at the same place? I have never seen such a thing before. I have had people drive from 2 to 10 hours to train. The concentration of hot keepers there seems pretty high. If we go low and only count the 6 I know of, then the Chattanooga Metro Area (which includes part of GA actually) has .0012% of the population keeping hots. That number sounds low. But if we apply that same percentage to the Atlanta area, then that would mean that there are 5,100 venomous keepers keepers here. Because of this, it almost does seem that you recruit, or at least glorify venomous herpetoculture. I will be the first to say that I do not know the details. I have only met a few of you briefly. This is just what it looks like to me and I had to get it off my chest.


BTW, in reference to:
I thought Chucks 10 commandments were really good. I hope you can learn to live by all of them some day Chuck.

I think that he is referring simply to III. Thou shall use safety equipment when working venomous reptiles
And you are a vocal freehandler. That is what I got from that statement, although clarification would be in order.


I also figured out why I keep deleting my posts. this dang 5 button mouse is set up so that a side button is like kitting "Back" in Internet Explorer. ACK! Gotta figure out how to change that.

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Scales Zoo
This is Ryan here.

I haven't posted much in the venomous forums, Sheila usually says everything that needs to be said from this household.

Ryan


This was Ryan's post. I usually post on the venomous forums, because as much as I would love to keep them, I am unable to work with venomous snakes. I would love to add them to our collection someday, but I am incapable of assuming any responsibility for their care. Therefore, we need a hot keeper to work for us to maintain the collection, and mentor Ryan to care for them as well.

I worked with dangerous animals for most of my life, and due to an accident with more than one of them, I am no longer able to work in that area. I am also unable to do many other things I used to enjoy. Horses kill more people per year than all other animals combined, including venomous snakes and crocodilians. There are no laws or protocols for buying or keeping a horse, in fact children are killed by horses bought by their parents as a gift.

I know you must wonder what this has to do with horses. NOTHING.

It has something to do with policing ones self. Good hot keepers already do it. Poor hot keepers do not. Always there will be good and bad people. We can provide as much information and advice as we like, it does not matter to those who do not care to follow it. Like petty thieves and drunk drivers, they are aware of the consequences of being caught, they just dont care.

Providing education and information to enthusiasts and beginners is a great idea, but sadly it will only benefit those who are willing to accept and follow the advice.

I talk to kids all the time who wish we had cobras and vipers. They are disappointed that we don't have a cobra as part of our educational display. When asked why they want to see a cobra, they reply with "they are so COOL" I tell them that if I had a cobra and a viper - I would park them in the garage - they are very nice cars. I remind them that there are 2 kinds of people who keep snakes, those who have been bitten, and those that are going to be.

If anything, the diligent hot keepers can start by not glamorizing the handling of venomous snakes. I have seen ads and pictures that would lead kids to beleive that a viper or cobra would be cool. The general public is in awe that one would put themselves at such risk. Evel Kneivel with a cobra!

I have observed several attitudes and disciplines when it comes to keeping venomous snakes, giant pythons, and crocodilians. The answers to the questions "why do you keep these?" have been interesting, amusing and downright frightening. But all of the answers have been educational.

I wish you guys nothing but the best in your endeavors to maintain your collections in a professional manner.

Sheila

[SCReptiles]

Chuck, that guy was totally rude, I think he was talking about your avatar of your Gaboon.
I agree, he was rude to me. =) But that is a Timber Rattlesnake, not a Gaboon.
But something has not set right with me. First, 4 trainees is ALOT!
Well, 2 of the 4 are members of this site. Barry and Jeter. Barry is Joe’s neighbor. He was a long time non-ven keeper. He saw our stuff and wanted in, when he asked me to train him, of course I said yes. After a few weeks, his wife began training also. Jeter contacted me thru my website and again I was happy to help him. The last works at a local pet shop and had worked with vens before, but had no official training. He asked if he could work with us, again I said yes. So, there are all four, of which I recruited zero. I speak on snakes at least 3 times per week. I am asked by countless people about getting started and discourage almost all of them. But any that are dead set on getting in, I train free of charge.
And you are a vocal freehandler.
Yes, I do free hand, but I do not teach it or suggest it to anyone. But if you are thinking you will work with hots on a long term basis, especially field work and not have an occasion where free handing is necessary, then you are only kidding yourself. Even Scott, who adamantly opposes free handling has done it for safety sake. There are techniques that can be used to avoid a strike. I learned them from my brothers at the church and I have practiced them enough to be proficient. If the situation called for it, I could pick up and most likely avoid a bite. I do not free hand on a regular basis and I do not promote it.
I also figured out why I keep deleting my posts. this dang 5 button mouse is set up so that a side button is like kitting "Back" in Internet Explorer. ACK! Gotta figure out how to change that.
I would prefer you keep deleting them.

[BWSmith]

I would prefer you keep deleting them.
Now that was not very nice.

[Snakesafe]

I ususally don't get into these debates, but this seems to be turning on one guy and I want to clear some things up.
1. If you don't know the facts keep your mouth shut! Chuck did not recruit me! I e-mailed him and asked if he would be interested in mentoring me. After a long discussion he agreed. But I think it stands to reason that anyone who is on the web and is a known hot keeper has the potential of getting requests to mentor!

2. It seems as if everyone thinks Chuck just free hands every snake he comes in contact with. I have known him for a while and I have seen him free hand 1 snake. Otherwise I have only seem him use hooks and tubes to handle a hot. And he has never encouraged me (and makes it a point to discourage) to free hand. It his choice, he knows the dangers...Deal with it.

[BWSmith]

If you don't know the facts keep your mouth shut!
So you are saying if you don't know, then don't ask. I thought my concerns and points were phrased very diplomatically and respectfully.

Chuck did not recruit me!
let's see, where is this do I say that he definately did?
Because of this, it almost does seem that you recruit, or at least glorify venomous herpetoculture. I will be the first to say that I do not know the details. I have only met a few of you briefly. This is just what it looks like to me and I had to get it off my chest.
I admit that I do not know the details and state that it is my interpretation. Calm yourself.

[Mustangrde1]

I keep coming back to this thread in my head and I apologize but IM about to rant a bit so feel free to quote me and take it apart and throw in your 2 cents or in BW's case should I leave the soap box next to the reply box.

OK we are talking about policing ourselves which is good it means we get involved in laws and legislation and education all well and good and needed. But lets face it anyone who keeps herps needs to police themselves and other keepers actions. I do not know to many hot keepers that walk the beach with a 15 foot king cobra around their neck, but I do see retic and burm keepers doing it. Most of the population fears herps its a fact and these people walking around just adds to the fire to outlaw or ban keeping. Then you get in to the pet store employee's most of whom don't know their heads from their "- - - - -".They give out improper information to perspective buyers all in the name of the sale. Example 1 My wife an I went to a store and the guy said we can keep a Cali King with our Chondros because one is tree dweller and one is a ground dweller they will be OK together his exact words. Expensive meal for the king wouldn't you say. Example 2 different store watched an employee tell a customer that the retic they were wanting for there 5 year old child was a great snake it was only about 2 feet at the time he said it would grow with the child and be a good pet as they grew up together. Now I am not saying all pet stores are bad, I have seen some with very highly skilled and knowledgeable employees but this is the exception not the norm.

This Leeds nicely in to the fact most people buy on impulses and do little or no research on the animals they want look at how many iggies die every year from improper care. Or how many people are trying to get rid of big burms or retics because they got to big to care for. Where the hell was the research when they were buying these animals they should have known they would grow very large or need special diets and lighting etc.

Speaking of size for God sake there are laws on what size a cage must be for a given size animal forget the law for a minute but come on a 6 foot monitor in a 55 gallon tank. That is cruel at best.

Policing should not just be for the hot keepers but for all herp keepers and that means if we see something another keeper is doing wrong we point it out to them and then help them correct it. If we see a pet store doing something wrong point it out to them and help them change their policy. If their employee's are giving wrong information speak to the manager offer your time and experience to help train them. If you see someone out with an animal point out to them that most people fear herps or some may have fear and to use some since in handling it around people.

Hot keepers as a rule do a lot of research on the species they deal with and others as well. Most hot keepers I have met are extremely intelligent people. Most are willing at the drop of a hat to help another keeper or to freely share information to help others.

Policing ourselves is a way of life as we have to do it for safety and liability but unless everyone polices themselves and others I firmly believe the entire hobby can be in serious danger. We see it all the time with tougher and tougher laws and regulations on what you can keep, what size you can keep, etc., etc.

It is the responsibility of any mature responsible keeper to help the newcomers to the hobby. There have been many threads on what is a good first hot. I think from now on my answer will be "There is no first good hot for a person to work with. Your first hot should be another keepers hots under his/her close supervision." Anyone that wants to seriously get in to this end of the hobby needs to be trained properly. I personally feel that anyone wanting to get a large monitor or large constrictor should have some training also or at bare minimum sellers should give them an information broacher on the animal and its size and growth rates. To many of these animals are just let go or in some cases killed or abused do to improper care because someone got it on an impulse buy.

Damn it our first responsibility is to the care of the animals in our charge be it a a small blind snake or a 30 foot retic.We sit here talking about policing ourselves yet everyone here probably has locking tanks, locking rooms hell for that matter customized room to prevent escapes. Hot keepers take all this time to make what they do safe and to better the animals in their charge. All animal keepers need to do this.

OK enough of my ranting had to get it off my chest. No offense to anyone just the ranting of a man without coffee yet.

[fatboy]

Yeah, BW I am kind of taking offense to that statement too. It's not like he just lets anyone in. I am 22 and have been keeping non-vens since I can remember as in before 5. Anything I could catch in North GA I would keep for a while then release it back before Fall. I was sort of scared of the venomous then once I had seen them and was around them I fell in love. I now have a passion for venomous. They are beautiful and very misunderstood, and were even misunderstood by me a reptile-enthusiast till lately. I also find it very cowardly that you would see all of us face to face this past weekend and wait till now to address this issue. I am tired of people that we meet and know hiding behind a key board. I am not threatening or saying it would result in violence, just think some may be two faced in the herp community. Just my opinion.

[Mustangrde1]

Oh man i just got my coffee and see chuck use my name.But he is 100% correct I am very against freehandling and yes I did do it to prevent a bite its a well know fact i posted AND I WOULD DO IT AGAIN IN A HEART BEAT. I have spoke to chuck several times now and my first impressions of him were of a egomaniac a_____ .I am very glad to say They were wrong He is extremly knowledgable and a great guy and one i would be proud to call a friend. Though he and I will debate and argue all the time i value those debates and arguements . I can learn more from 10 minutes of debating him than i can from 20 years of someone agreeing with me on everything.

[fatboy]

Scott, that is true. Most anyone that has met him knows that too. Some have the "I'm better than you" attitude and wont take the time to figure that out.

[Mustangrde1]

Awe Hell Barry im no better then anyone else. I try my best to learn and gain knowledge but lets face it we are dealing with living creatures. As they are living they evolve and no one can know it all. I wouldnt want to be part of something that is the same every time i love the change and unknown about these animals. But I have to say i dont think BW was being insulting just commenting on things he saw and his perspective on it.So before we go getting insulting and trash a good thread lets everyone step back take a breath and take it to PM's.Let the thread relate to good stuff .

[fatboy]

Well Scott, I see your point but I am not being insulting just calling it as I see them. BW is intelligent so he knew what he was starting. If he wanted he could have done this over PM but he wants it to be public. He didn't make the statement towards me but it includes me. Chuck can call me a trainee all day, but I have seen the basics. Only reason I guess he still calls me a trainee is because experience. I have worked every snake that is legal in GA and done it safely. You can really say Chuck only has 2 trainees from my point of view and two assistants if you will.

[SCReptiles]

take it to PM's.Let the thread relate to good stuff .
The guy from Scales Zoo insulted me in public and I responded in public. I think that is the prudent thing to do. I am not concerned with BW, he would side with Saddam Hussein if it meant he could disagree with me on something. This other guy is the one I take acceptation with. He is not a member of the venomous community. He does not post here and he has never spoken with me, but yet he comes onto the venomous forum and insults me. Barry is right, the internet breeds false courage. Now, I am not saying I would beat this guy up, in this day and age I only beat people up when I am getting paid by a promoter and there is a couple hundred people there to watch. I don’t want to fight this guy, BW, or even The Omen, but it aggravates me that people will throw out insults and cast dispersion on the internet that they would not even consider doing in person.

[BWSmith]

BW I am kind of taking offense to that statement too
As I said, it was not meant to offend. Simply my observations and a situation that I have never seen before. You have to admit that 3 hot keppers in the same non-herp related company seems like an extraordinary coincidence.

I also find it very cowardly that you would see all of us face to face this past weekend and wait till now to address this issue
And we all sat down and talked when? Should i have just said something in passing at the show and leave it at that? I do not think that it would have lended itself to a good discussion sice I was being pulled in 100 different directions all weekend. The only time I had all weekend for serious and long discussions was after the banquet. Even at the banquet, I was only able to speak to Chuck for about 30 seconds. But the party afterwards was very enightening with so many people of great stature. We had fantastic conversations and debates from venomoids to moral issues and plenty of laughs and stories. Almost everyone at the banquet was told where the gathering was to be, same place as every year, and all were welcome. I do not wish to start a conversation that i cannot finish because i am pulled away. If you find that cowardly, so be it. If you think I hide behind a keyboard, then so be it. Ask anyone who was at the after banquet gathering my reaction when a venomoid cobra was brought into my room! I am who I am and believe what I believe all of the time. Even close firends know what topics not to bring up around me because it will result in heated debate. But remember that this is also the internet. This environment lends itself to act or react, it is not like walking up and saying "hi". You either post a thread (act), or you reply to a specific issue (react), not to much just B.S.ing around. Ya wanna just shoot the S**T, then get into chat or put in a call, same goes if you want a private debate. I am always up for one-on-one communication. If you had said at the show "Hey, let's go sit outside and talk about freehandling", I would have gladly done so. Whether in person, on the phone, or online, I am the same person with the same beliefs and I gladly share them. Because I was friendly and shook your hand, I am two faced? If that is your belief, then go with it.
I am not threatening or saying it would result in violence
I know this. I think we could all be sitting around and get in a knock down drag out argument, but it would stay somewhat civil. I only met you and Joe briefly at best, so I am still forming an impression. But in the little time I spoke to Chuck, I found him to be respectful and well spoken. That was from meeting him. From reading his posts, I know that he is very knowledgable and often has differing views than me. So by your logic I should say that he is two faced and pretending to be a nice guy simply because we differ on some beliefs and often seem to inadvertantly offend each other, but he was nice at the show? I try take all things into consideration when forming my opinions on people. Hell, there are some big people at that show that i do not completely agree with, we debate all the time and I always learn something. After all, many of these people know more about herps than I can hope to learn in a lifetime.

Perhaps I worded my concerns poorly. What can i say, I am only human. But Chuck's explination of the situation was all that I was curious about and he explained it well. Then it went WAY offtrack.

BTW, great post Scott. perhaps it a similar thread about the Herp Community Policing themselves is in order in general discussion.

[BWSmith]

I am not concerned with BW, he would side with Saddam Hussein if it meant he could disagree with me on something
Now that is not true. I have agreed with you on certain topics and you have agreed with me.

BW is intelligent so he knew what he was starting.
Thank you. But I honestly did not think that so much offense would be taken. I was actually kindof shocked when i ran those numbers.

If he wanted he could have done this over PM but he wants it to be public.
PM perhaps would have been a better route.

it aggravates me that people will throw out insults and cast dispersion on the internet that they would not even consider doing in person.
So you deduce this from 2 minutes of talking to me in person? I live by the words "do not whisper a thing that you are not willing to scream from the rooftops if need be".

[fatboy]

Because I was friendly and shook your hand, I am two faced? If that is your belief, then go with it. I really can't say you were two faced to me, but if: But something has not set right with me.........I have only met a few of you briefly. This is just what it looks like to me and I had to get it off my chest. this were the case I would think you would have said something there where it could have easily been explained. It almost looks-to maybe only me-that you waited till now so you could make it public. Truthfully seems like a personal attack.

I live by the words "do not whisper a thing that you are not willing to scream from the rooftops if need be".
Did you not think about this subtopic till today?

[BWSmith]

Did you not think about this subtopic till today?
Actually, it has been kindof creeping around but had not solidified. Then when Chuck mentioned having 4 trainees (I was only aware of 3) it really stuck out and started a long train of thought, including figuring out those numbers. It was in no way meant to be a personal attack. It seems as though the extraordinary number of hot keepers is a coincidence. You have to admit that those numbers make it look a bit off.

[SCReptiles]

So you deduce this from 2 minutes of talking to me in person? I live by the words "do not whisper a thing that you are not willing to scream from the rooftops if need be".
I can tell you what I have honestly deduced. I have deduced you have some problem with me and I have ideas as to what it is, but I am not sure. The fact is I was happy when I met you. We only live 100 miles apart and I thought we would be assets to each other, but that is not the case. I love to be able to feel a since of community. I felt that since we are so close in geography and hot keepers, that there was a since of community there, but there isn’t. I thought after we met face to face this petty bickers would stop, but it hasn’t. People come in here and take pot shots at you, and I was quick to defend you. Someone comes in and takes an unprovoked pot shot at me and you quickly defend them. For many years I didn’t attempt to network with anyone. I only kept my snakes and worked them by myself. I taught myself almost everything I know. When I started to branch out, all I ever did was ask to help. I didn’t go to the nature center and ask to take over as reptiles curator. I asked if they needed help and signed up as a volunteer. I didn’t call up Chris Harper and say I want to be a SHHS manager. I asked if he needed help and can I volunteer. The center turned the snakes over to me and Harper gave me the title manager and I was happy about both, but it wasn’t what I asked for. From there many doors have opened for me. I was interviewed yesterday by a student doing a research paper on snakes. I am speaking every Friday night to urban children in Chattanooga and I enjoy every minute of it. It all came along because I asked if I could help. There was discussion of what venomous protocols should be, so I tried to compose them in 10 easy “commandments” and for my trouble I get this jack off in Canada insulting me and I get you defending him. I am done with trying to form community with you. Oppose me every chance you get and defend those that insult me, I could care less. Can’t prove it, but I am still pretty sure you were one of the ones crying about my free handling. And if that is the case, then yes. I think that was spineless and cowardly. Take up your problem with me and not people I work for.

[fatboy]

I live by the words "do not whisper a thing that you are not willing to scream from the rooftops if need be".
So you only live by this sometimes?

It seems as though the extraordinary number of hot keepers is a coincidence. You have to admit that those numbers make it look a bit off.
Yes, I think your numbers do look off. Not sure what figures you put into that. I think there are many more than most know about though. Religious reasons or hobbyists.

[BWSmith]

.Yes, I think your numbers do look off. Not sure what figures you put into that. I think there are many more than most know about though. Religious reasons or hobbyists.
Oh definately there are more than i know about. Hot keepers are generally a reclusive bunch and for definate good reason. I came up witht he numbers by looking at the official population for the Atlanta Metro Area and for the Chattanooga Metro Area (and just for good measure added about 50,000 more to Chtanooga to make sure to account for just over the GA line which it was already supposed to include), then simply figured out the percentage and applied that percentage to Atlanta.

So you only live by this sometimes?
No, I live by it every day. If I say something in private and someone asks me about it, then I will say one way or another. Certain things I do not advertise, but when asked, I am honest.


Chuck, let's see, what have I said about you in this thread?
I like the commandments.
I agree with this statement 100%

This I can almost see you taking offense to, but it is not a lone statement and i backed it up logically:
Because of this, it almost does seem that you recruit, or at least glorify venomous herpetoculture
Perhaps I should have worded it more carefully.

Let's see, what else have I said in this thread?
But in the little time I spoke to Chuck, I found him to be respectful and well spoken. That was from meeting him. From reading his posts, I know that he is very knowledgable
Chuck's explination of the situation was all that I was curious about and he explained it well

I think you might be overreacting just a wee bit. I explained my interpretation and the specifics of what brought it to my attention. And saying that i am defending people, I rarely come to anyone's defense and expect the same for me. We are adults and take responsibility. I simply explain what I interpreted the statement to mean trying to give you some clarification.

We are never going to see eye to eye on certain issues. So be it. Sorry you got offended, but I am not going to tip-toe around the tulips for anyone. If you have a question, ask me. If you have a concern, call me. If you think I am the scumof the Earth, scream it from the rooftops. It doesn't matter to me. If I had known that you were going to get so defensive about the question, i would have put it in a freakin' PM.

[SCReptiles]

And saying that i am defending people, I rarely come to anyone's defense and expect the same for me.
I think that he is referring simply to
Quote:
III. Thou shall use safety equipment when working venomous reptiles

And you are a vocal freehandler. That is what I got from that statement, although clarification would be in order.
That looks amazingly like defense to me. But I am not offended, I am just at my limits on attempting to befriend you.

[BWSmith]

I do not see it as a defense in any way. Looks like an explination to me.

[SCReptiles]

I really don’t have anything else to say about it. I have bent over backwards to try and be cool with you cause I have always thought it to be important that hot keepers stick together. On the other hand all you have ever done is belly ached, bitched, and complained, so now I am just going to leave you to that.

[Scales Zoo]

Well, I’m sorry to have caused so much banter.

I will post the clarification I was asked for, and then continue this discussion via private mail (as I probably should have in the first place) for anyone who wishes to do so.

Originally posted by SCReptiles
First off, who are you? Second, why would you come to the venomous forum and insult me, I do not go to the gater snake forums and insult you?

My name is Ryan, and I am from Scales Zoo.

I did not intend to insult you. I gave you a compliment about the 10 commandments, and then voiced my desire that you would follow all 10 commandments that you expect others to. If you took that as an insult, that is your problem.

If you believe you do follow all of your commandments, then we disagree.

By the way, I am not a member of a garter snake forum – actually I don’t even keep any garter snakes. I come to the venomous forum to try to learn a thing or two from people who have kept venomous snakes successfully for some time.

Originally posted by T.O-SK8TER
Chuck, that guy was totally rude…

That may be your opinion, or the definition of the term rude has been widened greatly.

Originally posted by BWSmith
And you are a vocal freehandler. That is what I got from that statement, although clarification would be in order.

The freehandling I have seen chuck post about was not actually at the forefront of that statement.

VI. Thou shall not use venomous reptiles to “show off”

It is my personal belief that any time you post a picture of yourself handling a venomous snake, it is showing off.

IX. Thou shall not advertise. The general public needs not know what you have.

You blatantly post a list of the venomous reptiles you keep each and every time you post to this very public forum.

Originally posted by SCReptiles
Barry is right, the internet breeds false courage. Now, I am not saying I would beat this guy up, in this day and age I only beat people up when I am getting paid by a promoter and there is a couple hundred people there to watch. I don’t want to fight this guy, BW, or even The Omen, but it aggravates me that people will throw out insults and cast dispersion on the internet that they would not even consider doing in person.

I agree with you that the Internet breeds false courage.
I assure you I would say anything to you in person that I type on a forum, or in private mail.
Maybe we could arrange “that jack off from Canada vs. Chattanooga Chuck” pay per view wrasslin match, as a fundraiser for ssnakess.com.

PM me if you like

Ryan

[BWSmith]

This has gone nowhere but to further the divide. I will be the first to admit that I should have addressed this concern through email or a PM. But I didn't. Oh well. Can't change that now. If you want to take offense to a question backed up by reasons for asking it, more power to you. Seems I hit a sore spot.

I have always thought it to be important that hot keepers stick together
It is of upmost importance. And all minor differences get shoved aside when something happens. There is a keeper in GA that I cannot stand. I border on dispise him. I consider him a danger to himself, others and the hobby. And we have gotten in heated arguments about it. But who do you think was the first one by his side after an EDB bite? Who do you think arranged care for all his animals while he was in intensive care and then recovering lacking use of one arm? There is a commrodery amoung hot keepers, whether we like the person or not.

I do not regret asking the question or presenting my reasons why. It may have been worded better and probably best to take it private. But judging by the record number of PMs and emails I recieved today, I was not the only one under that impression.

I do not lie, beat around the bush, or compromise my thoughts for anyone in any setting and I expect the same treatment. If something does not sit right with someone or they think something about me, let them ask and they will get an honest answer. I do not post to pick fights, I call 'em like I see 'em. Nothing more, nothing less. Brutal honesty with limited tact is a bitch sometimes. So be it.

[SCReptiles]

If you want to take offense to a question backed up by reasons for asking it, more power to you. Seems I hit a sore spot.
You seem to be missing what I am saying. No, you did not hit a sore spot. No, I am not offended. Fact is I am not even angry at you. I am just simply saying whatever your preconceived prejudice is against me is not dissipating. I have tried for a very long time to forum a since of community with you. I thought it was prudent being as we are hot keepers in the same state. Yesterday you demonstrated to me that you share more of a bond with python keepers in Canada, then you do with hot keepers in GA. So, with that understanding I am leaving to it. Enjoy yourself.
Maybe we could arrange “that jack off from Canada vs. Chattanooga Chuck” pay per view wrasslin match, as a fundraiser for ssnakess.com.
I am have to pass, I hold a great fear of what your finishing move might be. =)

[BWSmith]

ahhh. Well you are certainly entitled to interpret how you wish. At least there is some clarity. :D

[Scales Zoo]

Even though Ryan and I do not keep hots ourselves, I have to admire the hot keeper that can keep his cool. Congratulations BW, through all of this, you did not lose your head.

It is good to know that when the scenery is flying apart, BW will be there, calm and collected, making all the necessary observations, and making responsible decisions. Nuff said.

Sheila

[fatboy]

Get a room.

[Gregg M]

o