Thoughts on Atheris...Anyone?

[Matt]

I wanted to start a small discussion on the Atheris Genus.

I realize that this may not go too far (if anywhere) because of the lack of keepers on this site, but I'd like to know some thoughts of those of you that are familiar with them...and I know there are at least a couple

I am an <b>AVID</b> supporter of hot keepers keeping their own AV supply for all species that they keep.
However, as you probably all know there is no longer any AV produced for Atheris. German Based Behring used to produce an AV, but it is not longer available

I do keep some Atheris and I do have a particular protocol for Atheris bites because of the lack of AV.
Any keepers like to share what they have in place for Atheris Bite Protocol?

Here on some of my questions:

What are your thoughts on people keeping Atheris w/o the possibility of AV?

Does anyone have any Atheris bite stories to share?

I think that people typically underestimate the venom potency of this genus and take them all too lightly. Squams have caused fatalities! Thoughts?

Some people in the past have used Echis polyvalent to treat Atheris bites with some success, anyone ever heard of this?

any thought on any of this guys?

[cobraman]

Matt, the SAIMR polyvalant insert claims that in vitro this cross protects from atheris bites.
Ray Hunter

[Jeremy]

Hey Matt,
I do not belive any Av has every been produced specificly for Atheris. I have had many talks with bigtime arboreal keepers about this and all were under the same impression. To date, atleast as far as I know, Echis AV is the only thing thought to neutrlize any Atheris bites and this is only for the squams. However, I dont belive iut has ever been tested. Also, there is not enough evidence regarding envenomations from some of the other sp to make this conclusion for them as well. It would be imposible to say this for somthing like A.rungweensis(spelling?) which known from only a few areas in 2 national parks and from only, maybe 4 specimens. Of cource I may be wrong and out of date regarding my Atheris protacall in which case I am gladyou brought up the topic:-)

Some of the Atheris sp and closely related genus (specificly Proatheris supercilliaris) are known for causeing extream life threatening envenomations in people as well. Atheris ceratophorus have nearly done in a few US keepers and I believ a bite account can be seen at Venomousreptiles.org . It may not be on the current articles shown on the front page but it should be in there somwhere.

Also, the genus proatheris have been known to cause really nasty bites which resulted is blk urine (cringe), major blood chemistry problems and massive swelling of the entire bitten limb! Also, I belive some renal problems arised from all the dead blood cells being pushed through.What makes this even scarier is that these are very small sp. Squams can potentialy get much larger so a real bad bite is definately going to require hospitlization. Though there dosent seem to be any evidence indicateing any other sp or closely related genus of Atheris being neutrlized under echic av it would seem that the bite properties from some of these guys are very close t A.squamigera so i cant see why they wouldnt fall under the same catogorey. However, im no Brian Greig Fry so maybe there is somthing on a molecular level that is obvious to chemist andf not to us. Who knows.

As for keepers of Atheris stocking there own Av, well, what can we do? Its kinda a chance you have to take. I have long protested those who recomend Atheris as good starter hots for this very reason. Though these snake make very easy captives for the most part(not all sp though)the potential of death and lack of AV definately make them for the more experinced.

Welp, just some thoughts on the ol genus Atheris. How are yours doing BTW?Get that female to eat?

Take care man,
J

[Jeremy]

Hey Ray,
Do you know if SAIMR uses echis in there AV production? Im guessing this is why they say that. Have you ever heard of any cases were it was actually used for an Atheris bite?

Later man,
J

[Matt]

jeremy,
I have an AV index produced by the AZA, but I am at Work and Its at Home....I will check later tonight for sure, but if memory serves (which sometimes it doesnt) I was almost positive that The Behring Institute in germany produced an Atheris polyvalent, but the need for it was so low that they stopped producing this.

Again, Im not 100% sure, but I will indeed check tonight.

Yes, I did eventually get my little female to eat...she was stubborn though and it took a while before getting her to take on a regular basis.

I'd love to see some pics of yours sometime Jeremy.

Ray, good to know about the SAMIR, i guess in a worst case scenario it may be better to use than nothing!


From venomousreptiles.org - Account of Bite by Sedge Viper (Atheris nitschei) (http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/28)

[rhodostom]

Matt,

I have heard the first-hand account of a bite from Proatheris. While I do not recall much of what happened, I do know it was a life-threatening bite. The bite itself was on the index finger tip, and caused by an unexpected jump (the snake: from and off the ground). As Jeremy (hey buddy) said there were renal complications as well.

I believe the bite was documented in the literature somewhere, and I'd bet a lit search would turn it up. I believe the bite is mentioned on 'The world of Atheris' site as well.

-Michael B.
'rhodostom'

[ETET]

Hi Matt,

As Jeremy mentioned, for those like us who keep atheris has to take the chance and accept for the risk. Echis AV recommended probably because of atheris venom contain haemotoxic like echis, and there is really no documented case of people using echis AV for atheris bite.

In my protocol, I make sure there is a section cover about circulatory, renal and haemotological signs so medical professionals can watch out for these problems. Other than that, I just be careful when doing routine maintainence. Although my male is about 6in long, I saw one time he can strike about around 5in.....so stay away from its striking is the best thing to do. How many atheris you got now?

ETET

[Matt]

thanks for the imput Michael and ETET.

Ask me how many Atheris I have in another couple weeks :D
I think i may be getting a couple more soon, are you interested in a male ETET?
email me if you are, maybe i can swing a deal!

[Jeremy]

Hey Matt,
This is the only pic I have right now of my female squam. Ill get some better pics this weekend of her and the male. I put them together about 2 weeks ago and they were humping like rabbits so hopefully I will get some babies later in the year. Incedently, these were produced by the Morgan Bros (one of the most well known breeders of Atheris here in the states) and the mother to the male I have was solid blue black! He has alot of blk markings on his back and is rather turqoise(spelling) in color but most people would just consider him greenish and regular (if you look at him in the flesh he is really pretty). However, since his mom was blk hopefully, if im damn lucky, maybe a blk baby will come to be. Ya know how them squam litters go. Kinda like a box of chocolates, ya never know what your going to get. :-) One of the reasons like them so much!!!!

Also, although it isnt apparent in the pic my female has alot of blue on her head and tail. Very pretty but the green usualy overwhelms it. She is an awesome animal BTW and has a feeding response second to none. Once you get em going man it hard to make em stop!!!!

Welp, hope you enjoy the pic

All th best,
Jeremy

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/756mvc014f.jpg

[Matt]

beauty squam jeremy!
she looks great, thanks for the pic.

good luck with the litter this year, I would love to see you get a black baby...they are very few and far btw.

anyone else wanna share some pics?

I havent taken any new ones since the last time i posted, but i might as well post this little girl again

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/510/20atheris3-med.jpg

[Jeremy]

Heres a few links to pics of some squams my freind York Morgan owns. All shots were taken by him. Enjoy!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/data/libraries/1/324.thumb

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/libraries/download/323/daddio1.jpg

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

I always have much appreciated Atheris over eyelash vipers, much better animals. They can however, as most who check into them know, they can smack you really hard. We did some work on Atheris squamiger venom as well as Proatheris. The two venoms are quite similar which isn't suprising since they were also quite similar in their devastating effect upon the blood. However, the Atheris squamiger venom as also shown to be quite neurotoxic as well. By implication, the rest of the Atheris should be considered to have similar effects. I've uploaded the first article and you can download it at
http://www.venomdoc.com/downloads/BGF_Colubroidea_RCMS.pdf

Cheers
B

[Matt]

Dr. Fry,
I have heard thats Proatheris venom is very similar to squam venom, and hearing a couple horror stories regarding bite of proatheris, I treat my squams with a great deal of respect.

Correct me if Im wrong, but It seems that the whole genus is vastly understudied. I hear alot of general comparisons between species because each species has not been looked at individually.
what I would like to know is... if one considers all atheris to have similar clinical effects, is that a pretty safe assuption, or is that jumping to conclusions a little too quickly.

e.g, Is A. ceratophora venom similar clinically to A. squamigera

thanks for the imput, great to see you have joined our site!

[reverendsterlin]

unfortunately research is expensive, I imagine to rarity of bites makes study prohibitively expensive though there may be research occuring in areas other than anti-venin. It could be that in their native areas some small local labs may produce some for the 'local' market. I see it as what protocal beyond my standard handling protocal, no way I can get or produce AV, buyer beware and all that

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

Typically, within a genera venoms don't differ too much (there are of course notable exceptions to this). In anycase, as Proatheris has been shown to have similar venom to A. squamiger, its pretty logical to assume that the other Atheris species will also have the same sorts of venoms (as they are obviously more closely related to A. squamiger than Proatheris is).

Luckily, they are pretty easy animals to work with. You'd have to really try to get nailed by one. Proatheris, on the other hand, are absolute pain in butts! One of the most truly psychotic snakes I've ever milked.

Cheers
B

[Matt]

thanks :D

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

De nada amigo.
B