Some people!!!

[drewlowe]

I just got done watching a show on SciFi. It was a show on strange things. The first part of the show was about a penicostal (sp) church that handles "deadly serpents" and drinks strickt nine (sp). These people all looked way messed up kinda like imbred people. (LOL) I couldn't belive what i was seeing they had old, middle aged and CHILDREN holding cottonmouths, rattle snakes and a few others, and drinking strictnine (sp). The were all dancing around like idiots with these snakes in there hand and some were even holding them up to there faces. The whole time i was in awe, I couldn't belive what i was watching. The said the reason they did this was because a script in the bible said something like The true belivers would not be hurt when drinking deadly venom and handiling venomus serpents. An older gentleman claimed he had been bitten over 113 times and only been sick from the bites a few times. How is that possible, can they be using venimoids or what. When they were dancing with these snakes i swear the snakes looked so limp like they were placed in the fridge for quite some time. Sorry for my incoherent babble but how in the world could this be possible!!!! The church was way run down in the middle of nowhere. It didn't even look like a church and as i said earlier everyone there looked way wacked out crossed eyes slurred speech all singing and dancing with these snakes and drinking stricknine why would you for any reason do this. Did anyone else see this show!!!! or was i the only one. Any opinions are great.

Jamie

[Snip3r]

LOL my dad and younger brother just got done watching it...I made a remark calling them 'my mothers side of the family' LOL

[XxRachxX]

personally i think they're all nut case's!
they are all totally irresponsible for letting children handle them, the older people should know better! but of course its all religious and stuff and god will save them!!
of course when someone gets bitten and dies, what will they say then? im sure theyre views would change!
what do you expect from a bunch of inbred wierdos? lol
and whats strictnine?

and i have to say.... your avatar scares me ::shudder:: eep!

[jay76]

Didn't see the show, but I've heard it said before that "snake handlers" get their snakes easy to handle by making them so cold that they're nearly dead. Religious or not, it's still abuse to me. Or have they dreamt up another way to docilify them yet?

[burmer]

I've met a few snake handlers. They had told me some bite stories. I was amazed how non-chalant they were about it. IMO they are not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

[Bryce Masuk]

Damn that clown is Scary!
anyways nearly ALL of stuff you will see on t.v. with snakes is usually a bunch of idiots screwing with vens few people care about watching safe handling or corn snakes they want to see crazy Mofo's

[Lisa]

If some one dies then obviously they weren't a true believer. :P

[murph]

I've seen similiar clips or shows like that and some of the men say when their wives or kids are bitten and sometimes even killed by the snakes that it was their time and they were not strong enough in their faith to god to live....a serious lack of grasping reality in these places...scary! These people should seriously leave the snakes alone and find other ways to kill each other...lol

-murph

[Lisa]

Originally posted by murph
These people should seriously leave the snakes alone and find other ways to kill each other...lol

-murph


Why? it's darwin in action. preferably they get bitten before they reproduce.

[MontyPython]

Strictnine is used in rat poison...

[The_Omen]

Strichnine is also what is used to make acid for the trippers here :)

Looks like they found a nearly legal although not too bright of a way to trip.

[Andy_G]

Originally posted by drewlowe
These people all looked way messed up kinda like imbred people. (LOL) Jamie

I thought she was my second cousin!!! Lol




I doubt any snake handler is an extremely intelligent individual because it endagers their own life, but hey, I may be wrong...

[lordkovacs]

yeah, i saw that show a couple months ago. they are all warped. damn. What some people will do just baffles me.

cheers,
MIKE

[sapphire_moon]

strictnine is also in ciggaretts, along with cinyde (sp??)........ya, what these people are doing is finding a "legal" way to kill each other......"seriously officer, I didn't kill'em, that cotton mouth over there bit'em right on the nose! I guess his fait wan'nt strong nuff'." come on....poor snakes......those people are scary...I'm glad that they aren't the one's that are out there tryin to convert people....

[J-Man]

Those people are idiots...

Though I don't think some of you people should be making the connection between normal religious people who are quite strong in their faith (like me) and psycho religious people (like them). There are crazy people wherever you go... if they happen to be religious then the'll probably be crazy in a religious way. If they're not religious then they'll probably just walk around talking to Harvy the Rabbit.

[SCReptiles]

We live at the foot of Sand Mountain which is the Mecca of snake handling. It was founded in Cleveland, TN about 30 miles north of us. We know many snake handlers and I have been in many snake handling services. I have seen them live and to answer some of your questions, no they are not venomoids. No they do not cool the snakes before they handle them. If you are skeptical, Pastor Billy Summerfield of the Rock House Holiness Church in Section, AL will take up any snake that YOU bring in. These people are among the most committed and steadfast people I know. They have integrity that many of you here will only wish to have. All of you that have things to say about these people, come on down to Sand Mtn and say it to their face! I seriously doubt anyone will, but you can meet me in Chattanooga, TN and I will guide you right up to Sections. They hold a service every Friday night. And yes there are education and articulate snake handlers. Read the book Salvation on Sand Mountain. The author came to Scottsboro, AL to write a book on the handlers and ends up converting to that religion. I don’t know what you saw on TV, but I do not know any church that allows anyone under 18 to take up a serpent. In Section you can’t even leave the handling area with one. I take this issue very seriously. I am a devote Christian as well as a republican. =) These people are a bit misguided in doctrine, but they are still my brothers.

[corr]

Just to echo what J-Man said - Stereotyping is wrong. Just because a handful of irresponsible snake handlers make it on TV doesn't mean that ALL snake handlers behave that way. ALL Christians don't behave that way either.

"I'm glad that they aren't the one's that are out there tryin to convert people...."

Spreading the gospel has much more basis in scripture than handling snakes. If you are referring to the door to door tatics of the Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints), then this is yet another stereotype unfairly placed on Christians.

[drewlowe]

Chuck This one had the people dancing all around the church with the snakes. They were also passing the snakes around while people were jumping and dancing all around even while holding the snakes and there were children involved. They were pulling out limp snakes from a drawer. The church looked way run down like a 100 year old shack. They had small interviews with a few of the people and their not what you would call smart folk (not even close to it). Maybe the one you have been to and that you have such high respects for is different, but this one was horrible. For me i don't care how knowledgable a person is I personally would never take part in something like that. Even if i was with a well trained venomus keeper there is no way i would even hold one with a hook much less take a chance in my life to freehandle one. Maybe i'm not spiritual enough but nope noway not me.

[drewlowe]

Corr i Know not all Christians are like this and not all churches belive in handling snakes. I myself have been to several different churches with different religions. I was not trying to sterotype anyone or anything. I commented on a show i seen last night. Maybe this is just the worst snakehandling church out there. I have heard of this before but that was the first time i had seen it. The point of the thread wasn't to bad mouth churches or even tring to sterotype them i didn't know how this was possible as all the snakes were limp they were passing them around and dancing with them on top of that drinking 100% strichnine. With children involved also. That is taking it a little too far in my eyes.

Rach and bruce HaHa you don't like my clown. For those that don't know who he is... It's Pennywise from Stephen Kings (book and movie) IT. Great book and movie!!!! One of my favorites. Pennywise takes many forms but the clown is the one most commonly used because it lures children in closer HAHAHAHA....

[SCReptiles]

kinda like imbred people. (LOL)
Seems to me your point was to cast dispersions on these people and no other purpose. And even though they may be inbreed, they can probably still spell inbreed correctly. I am very disappointed in you. Prior to this I have respected most of what you had to say. You should really come down and meet these people, you would be quite surprised. They are the salt of the earth. For the most part they are poor and not well educated. They work harder then most of us could imagine and they still get together 4 and 5 times a week to worship. They work 12 and 14 hours during the day, then meet at church and worship and have a great time of fellowship up until about midnight, then they are up at sunrise the next morning working again. I wish more of the world could be like these “nut cases.” Yes Rachel, I am very disappointed in you as well. And no, there views do not change when someone dies. They will tell you up front, it happens. The scripture says to take them up Mark 16:18, it does not say you will not get bit. Many have given their lives for what they believe in. How many people do you know that has died for a belief? I would bet none. Pictured here is Punkin Brown. He died in the late 90’s at Billy’s church after a timber bite, his wife died a few years before in KY after a timber bite. They left behind 5 children, who will be the next generation of snake handlers. It’s the lifestyle they know and love. They wouldn’t have it any other way.

[drewlowe]

Chuck As for my spelling, don't care point out all my mistakes it doesn't bother me in the slightest not everyone on this site spells every single word they write in every single post correctly. You really want to point out my mistakes then write about my grammar. I even think i spelled that wrong. I have the worst grammar ever!!!!

i said something like these people look all messed up kinda like inbreed people. Mabey not everyone that does this looks like that. It was in reference to the people i saw on the show. Maybe i'm partialy close minded but there is noway that anybody would willinly get me to walk into a place that does something like that. I personaly would not risk my life.

The place you discribed is different from what i had seen on tv. You said they have an area for the snake handling to be done the place they showed did not they were dancing all around the place and even passing snakes around the whole chruch. Another thing you said was that nobody under 18 can hold a snake well this place had children doing it even holding it to the childrens faces. You also said that the place you have gone to doesn't cool down the snakes. This place all the snakes were completly limp they appeared to me cooled down. (makes me wish i had taped it now). Maybe they just showed the worst of all of them and it cast a bad light on snake handling in the way they did it (for me). I was in a state of disbelief the whole time i was watching the show.

[SCReptiles]

No need to tape it, I have seen it and many others like it. They are all crap and deliberately edited to make things look worse then they really are. There are no reports on the market that give a true representation of these people. Perhaps I will do my own. Showing them all working backbreaking jobs during the day, then meeting at night to worship and have a good time. Sure you and some of these other spineless pieces of crap can take pot shots at them on the internet, but I know none of you would stand face to face with them and say it. While they are unusual in what they do, they stand steadfast and do not bow to political correctness or any other Democrat backed new age ideas. You will never see a gay deacon in a snake handling church. =)

[corr]

Drewlowe, my comment was not directed specifically at you. I just wanted to clarify that before this thread got into a Christian bash. I would love to discuss this whole issue and that won't be possible if the thread gets closed.

BTW, I don't think the fact that these people are poor, not intelligent, and hold their worship in a shack has anything to do with it. Also, noone is asking you to participate. I wouldn't either.

Chuck, I always thought it was spelled INBREAD. :D

Oh, and that clown scares the crap out of me too! I'll never forget the scene where he's peering out of the sewer drain. :eek:

[drewlowe]

Then maybe you should do a documentry on these people and there practices to shed the correct light on the subject. I can only go off of what was portraied in the show i watched( i know you cannot belive every thing you see on tv). If i could i would sit down and have a conversation with them, but with the way i was raised and the things i belive in i don't think my opinion would change. Call me spineless piece of crap all you want but taking worship to that level is way to far for me.

Haha corr eveyone says that. I have a guy friend who won't watch the movie cause the scene where they have IT walking though the sheets makes him cry.

[brig]

Woah, I'm not getting into the religious thing... to much thin ice there, but I couldn't help but notice some things that Chuck said, and I have a couple of questions:


Sure you and some of these other spineless pieces of crap can take pot shots at them on the internet, but I know none of you would stand face to face with them and say it.

and...

You will never see a gay deacon in a snake handling church. =)

1. Is this the loving, understanding, 'turn the other cheek' Christianity that I thought I was familiar with?

2. Surely opinions ranging from "they're all inbred loonies" to "they're all upstanding salt of the earth people" are just that: OPINIONS! Isn't everyone entitled to theirs?

And, yes, I would stand in front of your friends and speak my opinions! Although why my opinion should mean anything to them is beyond me, in the same way that their opinion and beliefs mean nothing to me! Just don't hurt the snakes, is all I'd say! What people do to themselves and their own children in our free societies is entirely up to them, as far as I'm concerned.

Just my 02 pence. Not deliberately trying to offend anyone, but I don't like closed mindedness in public places no matter what form it takes, and this whole thread seems to have needled me for some reason!


take care,
Brig.

[SCReptiles]

1. Is this the loving, understanding, 'turn the other cheek' Christianity that I thought I was familiar with?
The bible tells you to come as you are, so we would welcome in a homosexual who is seeking Christ and willing to turn from that sin. We would certainly not welcome in a practicing homosexual who wishes to continue that life style. In the old testament God told his chosen people to kill them, in the new testament Paul tells us to separate ourselves from them and calls them an abomination.

Drewlowe, I didn’t call you a spineless piece of crap, I said you and these other … but I do hold that opinion of anyone who would call people names on the net but not to their face. And I frankly do not believe any of you would go to Sand Mountain and call any of them Inbreed or nut case. You may say something like, I don’t agree with you, but hell I tell them that all the time. Years of that kind of work makes MEN. Real men. These good old boys will smack a knot on your head quick.

[marisa]

I do not see how putting your life in danger has anything to do with believing in Jesus Christ or whatever you believe in. The bible also says treat your body as a temple.

Yes I would tell them that putting themselves at risk from a serious venoumous snake bite is wrong, right to their face...why are they going to beat me up?. How would you feel about all the bad press if one of them gets bitten and dies? Maybe you wouldn't care but I can bet some of the other hot keepers who fight this press everyday would care.

I do not feel getting bitten by a deadly snake and dying is "standing up for my beliefs" And you are talking about them "smacking knots" what type of Christians are these who are willing to beat someone up because they don't agree? That is just childish. Fist fighting? Are you kidding me?

Marisa

[brig]

SCReptiles -
I gotta ask - what does 'smack a knot on your head quick' mean?

I'm not joking - I'm 'foreign'! This phrase intrigues me.

cheers,
Brig.

[marisa]

This is o.k. for the hobby and venemous in general? Or are should I not post this on the net and just bring it to the rumble I may have with some devotees?

http://www.oakridger.com/stories/102298/stt_1022980031.html

Someone DIED in this article. What did their life serve? I guess God didn't love him enough. Maybe the better choice would have been to spread his message about Jesus and God to other people who don't know about him yet, but now he can't do that because he just HAD to handle a venemous snake.

Very sad indeed.

Marisa

[Steele]

so if my wife gets killed handling snakes and then i go out and do it to they should take a way my children. that is the worst parinting I have herd of. That man was so conserd about his"religon" that he forgot a bout his children that to me is a bad person

[MouseKilla]

oh wow! Hot snakes, hot topic, hot debate. This is so good someone will have to stop it, I can see it. Now it's important to note that there are all sorts of different groups of people that call themselves Christians. From the gentlest, turn-the-other-cheek, compasionate and socially responsible people who's politics are quite progressive, to the twisted right wing fringe groups like the ***. All pass the test to be able to call themselves Christians: they hold the stated belief that Christ was the son of God. That's why it's important not to lump everyone that claims to believe in Christ into the same category. Maybe God actually does speak to all of these people, it's hard to say. And maybe if God tells the ones who have a habit of voting for the party that eliminates the minimum wage, outlaws organized labour and opens the door for the 14 hour work days these same people are having to work to play with rattlers and drink poison maybe God knows what he's doing.

[Steele]

P.s I would gladly stand face to face and tell them

[SCReptiles]

I do not see how putting your life in danger has anything to do with believing in Jesus Christ
It is following the commands of Jesus Christ.

Mark 16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Luke 10
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Now, that being said, they believe they are doing as Jesus has instructed in these verses. The bible also says “when that which is prefect has come, all signs and prophecy shall cease.” These signs, Snakes, Tongues, and Poison were given to the first century Christians who did not have a bible to validate what they were saying. They were given these powers from God to further the cause. We, present day Christians, can not claim these powers.
How would you feel about all the bad press if one of them gets bitten and dies? Maybe you wouldn't care but I can bet some of the other hot keepers who fight this press everyday would care.
We have had this debate many times. Virtually no press comes from keepers getting bitten. You see small write ups in the back of local papers. The citizens do not care. The small articles are picked up by herpers like us and circulated around the net, but again the general population does not care. Escaped snakes is what catches the attention of the public and leads to new laws. Two cases in point, TN and AL.

[mk-ultra]

another post of people that cant respect what they dont know ... wtf is wrong with everyone ... thats the way they live end of line .

people jump from planes that are perfectly working just for the thrill and are considered "COOL"

people run cars at 350km/h and they are F1 heros

people risks their lives everyday just for the fun of it and they are awesome

those people do that because they believe in it in a serious way and you call them inbreed dump people ... well you gotta be the worst dumbass ever . buy yourself a brain if you ever get a chance and add some sense of respect .

( not aiming at anyone in particular )

[marisa]

And this means putting your life in danger on purpose is all part of the beliefe system? Sorry I am just not understand any religion who would rather followers who coudl spread the word to other people, pick up snakes and possible die. Which obviously happens.

Press doesn't matter? I am not even getting into that. But o.k.

Marisa

[SCReptiles]

P.s I would gladly stand face to face and tell them
you wouldn’t stand long. =)

[marisa]

Why are you telling us that these God loving people would kick are ***? Are you seriously saying they would have a FIGHT a FIST FIGHT? Is that not schoolyard behviour? I doubt the bible condones that! And totally ridiculous? I can't even believe you are telling me they would threaten us bodily harm by telling them how we feel. That is so childish.

Marisa

[RaVeNo888o]

i dont see what the point of this arguement is. SCreptiles..u admitted that the documentary has been edited to show the worst side of these worshipers and the others agree that u are telling the truth when u say that it is different. they only went by what they saw on tv in their previous comments. Im not attacking anyone here, but it seems to me that u have all agreed yet u still argue? the only thing that seems to still be an issue is that handling the snakes like this is unsafe, which it seems to be. But we cant tell them what to do, there is no point on arguing the safety of their practises. If someone here says it isnt safe, they arent gonna go 'What were we thinking?' and stop their worshipping all of a sudden.

[SCReptiles]

And this means putting your life in danger on purpose is all part of the beliefe system? Sorry I am just not understand any religion
If the almighty God who created all tells you to do it, your life is in no danger. He delivered Daniel form the lions, David from the giant, the Jews from mighty Egypt, he even delivered Paul when he was bitten by the viper in Acts.

[marisa]

Then why did that person die in front of the entire congregation?

Marisa

[SCReptiles]

Your question:
Then why did that person die in front of the entire congregation?
My answer
We, present day Christians, can not claim these powers.
And I have asked them this same question. Their answer: The just tells us to take them up, never says you will not get bit or even die.

[SCReptiles]

Why are you telling us that these God loving people would kick are ***? Are you seriously saying they would have a FIGHT a FIST FIGHT?
I am seriously saying if one were stupid enough to go to Sand Mountain and mock these people, there would be repercussions. Fact is, if they let you pass, I would stomp your ***.

[marisa]

Oh I see. So now no one is allowed to disagree because either you or them will actually beat us up like we are in 9th grade? LMAO Yeah o.k. I am done with this discussion. It's too stupid and immature to even continue.

Marisa

[mk-ultra]

wtf you guys cant read
you can disagree with something without saying they are dumb inbreed wtf do you people need to get slap in the face to understand anything ....... damn ...

[marisa]

A. I never said they were inbreed. I agree that is stupid. B. I actually think their beliefs are nice but do not agree with holding venemous snakes up in front of a church and then dying.

But of course the only way to have an adult discussion is too agree or else get hit someone like a schoolyard child would. LMAO. People who constantly threaten violence when a calm discussion is happening have nothing else of interest to say to me. Why? Because anyone can punch anyone. Its immature, childish, and laughable to say "I am gonna beat you up you meanie!" just because you are havinng a discussion. Like I said, done.

Marisa

[SCReptiles]

Oh I see. So now no one is allowed to disagree because either you or them will actually beat us up like we are in 9th grade?
negative on that Marisa, I disagree with people all the time and never slap them. I said if you went to their church and mocked them! In that case, I think one should carry and asswhippin. Call it ninth grade if you like.

[marisa]

I will. Dropping to BELOW someone elses level is worse than the person doing the mocking.

Marisa

[mk-ultra]

i wouldnt do the hots handling myself but i dont think they are stupid for doing it they have strong belief in what they do and deserve respect

[brig]

I am seriously saying if one were stupid enough to go to Sand Mountain and mock these people, there would be repercussions. Fact is, if they let you pass, I would stomp your ***.

Oh boy... Don't you just love threats?!
'Mocking' is different to saying one doesn't agree with someone's beliefs or actions.

I personally wouldn't mock these people, but would gladly engage them in (hopefully) intelligent debate, and entertain them for as long as they liked with a summary of my views on why their practices are 'wrong' and why I don't agree with their literal interpretation of the bible.

But not if my personal well-being were in danger - I'm not that stupid:(

Frankly this 'fundamentalist' mentality scares the cr@p out of me. I will watch the rest of this post with interest, until someone pulls the plug on it!

peace,
Brig.

[MouseKilla]

Of course they won't hit you! They'll throw deadly snakes at you. There is no reason to fight with or insult anyone, God is taking care of them. They're sure to kill themselves off and as long as you keep your distance (you know, the way a reasonable person does with the venomous snakes as well) nature will take it's course, God's will shall be done. Some people think to believe in God you can't believe in adaptive evolution. Personally I think this is God steering human evolution away from foolishness. He's weeding out the stupid gene using one of his most beautiful creations, the snake.

[brig]

Nice one, MouseKilla!!! Love the Darwinism!


Brig.

[fatboy]

Marisa, I really think you are missing the point. Chuck is saying be respectful even if you do not agree with them. I think he is saying if you went to Section and called them "dumb" "imbreed" or anything of the sort you wouldn't like the outcome. They may not hit you, but yet someone should for being so disrespectful towards their Christianity. Who knows....I could be wrong.

[SCReptiles]

Oh boy... Don't you just love threats?!
The term threat implies hollow or without backing, I never make threats.
I personally wouldn't mock these people, but would gladly engage them in (hopefully) intelligent debate, and entertain them for as long as they liked with a summary of my views on why their practices are 'wrong' and why I don't agree with their literal interpretation of the bible.
And most would be glad to talk to you in those terms. I debate this with them all the time!
Of course they won't hit you! They'll throw deadly snakes at you.
No, best believe they would hit you. They take good care of their serpents.
They're sure to kill themselves off and as long as you keep your distance
Actually very few die. Punkin died in 1998, he was the last one I heard of. Brother Willie in WV has been bitten over 150 times and he is still preaching.

[Steele]

I am telling my mommy

[MouseKilla]

Clearly you have not been introduced to the subtleties of sarcastic humour, though I didn't think I was that subtle. Maybe sarcasm is one of those New Age concepts (you know like minimum wage, organized labour and far out things like socialized health care) you don't go in for down there in Shrub territory. Do I hear a banjo?? (Another joke there! Let's lighten up a bit and have a sensible debate bro, whether it's about religion, politics, snakes or all three)

[BWSmith]

Chuck, how many bites is Dewy up to? I am just curious. I am staying the hell out of this debate :D

[SCReptiles]

Last time I saw him was at the VA expo. He told me that he stopped counting at 150, so no one really knows. Silas, who is more or less his understudy, is up to 25 already. In fact he got tagged the week before last. That was a bad week. I believe that was the same week Ray and Mardi got tagged. Glad I was out of town on that one. Ha ha.

[lordkovacs]

Chuck... you are right in what you say about respecting the these people's religion, whatever it is. As a Christian myself, I do disagree with you analysis of the bible in relation to that excerpt you included above. I think you took that to be literal, when in my opinion it is figuratively speaking. Alas, religion is not to be debated in the forum, so we can let that go.

I respect anybody that has a belief. It shows that their minds are working and are constantly aware of what's going on. However, I do chose to disagree with their beliefs...as I do in this case.

I too watched that special show on them, so my opinion is based on that. True, I can't begin to understand the roots of their belief system... all I have to go on is that one hour special.

God Bless,
MIKE

[SCReptiles]

I too watched that special show on them, so my opinion is based on that. True, I can't begin to understand the roots of their belief system... all I have to go on is that one hour special.

here is some further infomation for those who are interested.

Serpent Handlers
aka Snake Handlers and the Signs Following Movement
| Profile | Beliefs | Issues & Controversies | Links | Bibliography | Audio/Video |

I. Group Profile
1. Name: Snake Handlers
2. Founder: Although other people prominently figure into the history of this religious movement George Went Hensley is commonly considered the "[father] of contemporary serpent handling" (Burton 1993, 7).
3. Date of Birth: Born around 1880 [No specific date exists]-died July 25, 1955 [from a snake bite] (Kimborough 1995, 133).
4. Birth Place: Hills of Tennessee (Kimborough 1995, 133).
5. Year Founded: No exact date exists; Hensley is thought to have taken up the practice in 1908. (Burton 1993, 34).
6. History:
Snake Handlers are more generally known as the Church of God with Signs Following. Under this umbrella term falls the loosely organized "Pentecostal churches, ministers and itinerent preachers popularly known as snake handlers." The practice itself developed out of the Pentecostal-Holiness movement which flourished in the first two decades of the twentieth century (Melton 1996, 636).
The practice is believed to have started with George Hensley in the hills of Tennessee (Melton 1996, 636). As church lore has it, snake handling started sometime in the later part of the first decade of the twentieth century while Hensley was preaching at the Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee. During Hensley's sermon about Mark 16 some men dumped out a box full of rattlesnakes in front of him. Without missing a beat Hensley reached down and picked up the snakes, preaching the entire time. By 1914 the practice had spread throughout the Church of God, however, the actual act of snake handling was only practiced by a small portion of the members (Melton 1996, 636).
Hensley then settled to preaching in the Grasshopper Valley region of Tennessee a few miles away from Cleveland. He stayed here for a number of years. When "a member almost died from a snake bite [Hensley] moved to Pine Mountain, Kentucky." By the Late 1920s the support for snake handling vanished in the old Cleveland church and many of the Church of God branches. By 1928, snake handling became the activity of only a few independent churches nestled in the Appalachian Mountains where it stayed until its revival in the 1940s (Melton 1996, 636).
In the 1940s snake handling saw a resurgence led by Raymond Harris and Tom Harden. These men went on to start the Dolly Pond Church of God with Signs Following in Grasshopper Valley. Lewis Ford a member of the Dolly Pond congregation died from snake handling in 1945. His death led to the official banning of snake handling in Tennessee in 1947 (Burton 1993, 81). Hensley, still alive and practicing, was arrested in Chattanooga under new the statute in 1948. North Carolina which followed suit and banned snake handling as well shut down the Interstate Convention of believers in Durham in 1947. These incidents started the battles with the government over the right to handle snakes [see issues and controversies for more details] (Melton 1996, 636).
Snake handling withdrew again in the early 1950s only to be thrust into the spotlight again in 1971. After three people died in Tennessee and Georgia from either snake bites or strychnine poisoning, snake handling came under attack once more. This time the ban was challenged on First Amendment grounds, the Tennessee State Supreme Court reaffirmed the ban in 1973 (Melton 1996, 636).
An interesting footnote is that while snake handlers in North Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Virginia all trace their heritage back to George Hensley, the sign followers in Alabama and Georgia have a different origin. Evidently a man named James Miller "took up the serpents" entirely on his own after deep reflection over the scripture. He first brought the practice to Sand Mountain, Alabama around 1912. By 1920 he had spread the practice into southern Georgia, specifically, Berrien and Cook counties (Burton 1993, 7).
7. Sacred or Revered Texts: The Bible, specifically, Mark 16:17-20 and Luke 10:19
(Kimborough 1995, 14).
8. Cult or Sect:
Negative sentiments are typically implied when the concepts "cult" and "sect" are employed in popular discourse. Since the Religious Movements Homepage seeks to promote religious tolerance and appreciation of the positive benefits of pluralism and religious diversity in human cultures, we encourage the use of alternative concepts that do not carry implicit negative stereotypes. For a more detailed discussion of both scholarly and popular usage of the concepts "cult" and "sect," please visit our Conceptualizing "Cult" and "Sect" page, where you will find additional links to related issues.
9. Size of Group:
An exact number is unknown due to the autonomy of each individual group, but estimates range between 1,000 and 2,000 total church members [including those who do not actually handle snakes] (Burton 1993, 165). Snake handlers can be found as far south as central Florida, and as far west as Columbus, Ohio and as far north as West Virginia (Melton 1996, 636).
| Profile | Beliefs | Issues & Controversies | Links | Bibliography | Audio/Video |

II. Beliefs of the Group
The central tenets of snake handlers revolve around a strict literal interpretation of the Bible (Burton 1993, 17). The ritual of snake handling then must, necessarily, come from a direct order from the Bible. There are three main passages that mandate the practice:
Mark 16:17-18: "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Kimborough 1995, 14).
Mark 16:19-20: "So then after the Lord has spoken unto them [Jesus' disciples], he was received up into heaven, and set on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" (Burton 1993, 18).
Luke 10:19: "Behold, I give unto you the power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over the power of the enemy: and nothing by any means shall hurt you" (Kimborough 1995, 14).
For sign followers to receive the power of the Holy Ghost (described above) it "takes repentance, remission of sins, and a godly life." Only after these three steps will the Holy Ghost enable the snake handlers to follow the signs. The signs themselves include "speaking in tongues, casting out of demons, handling serpents, drinking deadly things, [and] healing the sick" (Burton 1993, 17-18). Some members will also anoint themselves with oil [as part of healing], "[hold] fire" and "[stick their] fingers into live electrical sockets" while engulfed in the power of the spirit (Covington 1995, 24-26).
As part of leading a "godly life," sign followers must adhere to a strict moral code. Members of this sect must dress very plainly. In fact, jewelry is kept to a minimum. Some groups go so far as to consider wedding bands or watches as too extravagant. They cite 1 Peter 1:18, "For as much as you know that ye were not redeemed with corruptable things, as silver or gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers," to justify their stance (Kimborough 1995, 32). Women, moreover, generally wear their hair long without any artificial curling, straightening or coloring and men must keep their hair short. For the hair restrictions they cite 1 Corinthians 11:14-15, "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man have long hair it is a shame unto him? but if a woman have long hair it is a glory to her: for her hair is given to her for a covering" (Kimborough 1995, 32). Dressing standards for both men and women are very plain. Men wear open necked, long-sleeved shirts and slacks [although jeans and bib-overalls are generally accepted as well] (Kimborough 1995, 32). Women must wear dresses of solid or flowered print (LaBarre 1969, 16).
Aside from issues of dress and grooming, sign followers do not use tobacco or alcohol, and, depending on the church, caffeine (Kimborough 1995, 32 and LaBarre 1969, 17). In addition, the belief in the healing power of the Lord proscribes any professional medical treatment or even over-the-counter medications. A break with the belief in healing exhibits "a sure sign of lack of faith in God's ability to cure the sick." In some extreme cases churches have been known to ban eyeglasses (LaBarre 1969, 17). However, much like the dress and grooming standards the issue of eyeglasses and even more serious medical attention is variable. Since each church is its own autonomous unit the standards listed in the previous paragraphs will vary to a slight degree when comparing individual sign following churches (Kimborough 1995, 33).
Another practice unique to sign followers is that of the "Holy Kiss." When members meet they give each other a kiss on the lips. This is usually done only to same sex members of the church. Different groups have different reasons for the practice. Some churches cite Romans 16:16 "salute another with a Holy Kiss" other use 2 Corinthians 13:12-13 "Greet one another with a Holy Kiss" (Kimborough 1995, 33).
Sign followers, like Pentecostals, believe in the three stages, "salvation, sanctification and the baptism of the Holy Ghost." The steps occur when one realizes first "salvation from sin," then sanctification in the form "instantaneous...eradication of one's sinful nature," and finally the baptism of the Holy Ghost as manifest in the nine spiritual gifts (Burton 1993, 6-7). The nine spiritual gifts are specified in 1 Corinthians 12:8-10:
"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; To another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; another prophesy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues" (Burton 1993, 173).
Sign followers and Pentecostals tend to diverge in the "interpretations of other signs, which include the taking up of serpents" (Burton 1993, 7). Within the sign-following community there also exists a minor schism between two interpretations of the Holy Trinity. Incidentally, mainstream Pentecostals and Holiness denominations argue over this topic as well. The first group is referred to as Jesus' Name or Unitarians. They feel that the Holy Trinity (the Father, Son , and Holy Spirit) are all one in the same. They are merely names reflecting the "diverse features of Christ's person." The Jesus' Name people cite Acts 2:38 as their proof: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and he baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Kimborough 1995, 31).
The Trinitarians, however, cite biblical passages to support their claim that the three parts of the Holy Trinity are separate entities. They quote Luke 3:16 as their definitive proof: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life" (Kimborough 1995, 32). This difference of opinion is a rather small disagreement because of the relative autonomy of each individual church. In fact, this argument largely boils down to one of theological semantics since the effect that it has on actual worship is nonexistant.
| Profile | Beliefs | Issues & Controversies | Links | Bibliography | Audio/Video |

III. Issues and Controversies
The exotic nature of this form of religious observance (i.e. snake handling, applying fire to the skin, and drinking poison) leaves its practitioners open for an inordinate amount of controversy. Indeed, from the very beginning, the efficacy of snake handling was in question in both religious and secular circles.
The first and most obvious question revolves around the authenticity of snake handling. Detractors, of a secular variety, have made a variety of claims as to why the snakes do not bite the handlers. These detractors assert that the frequent handling has tamed the reptiles, or that they are fed before handling to make them more docile. Other theories have included that the practice is a fraud because the snakes are either milked of their venom or [the snake is defanged] prior to services, making them harmless (Kimborough 1995, 34-36). Anthropologist Weston LaBarre states, and Kimborough among the other authors surveyed on this page agree, that no evidence exists to prove that the snake handlers intentionally or even unwittingly tamper with their snakes prior to religious services.
Snake handlers are also challenged as to the biblical veracity of their interpretation of sign following. In fact, LaBarre cites Ecclesiates 10:11 "Surely the serpent will bite without enchantment; and a babbler is no better." This passage, he argues, can be interpreted to "discourage both snake-handling and speaking in tongues" (LaBarre 1969, 11). Snake handlers have also found themselves accused of "misappropriating" God's power or rather that handling snakes is beyond the purview of mortal men (Burton 1993, 69).
The biggest of all obstacles for snake handlers has occurred in the arena of the law. Since the start, snake handlers have found themselves under the scrutiny of legal authorities of both the state and local municipalities. In the decade between 1940 and 1950 six southern states (Kentucky 1940, Georgia 1941, Tennesee 1947, Virginia 1947, North Carolina 1949, Alabama 1950) banned the practice of snake handling. Each state based their legislation on the premise that the First Amendment right to the free practice of religion was superseded by the potential danger to non-participants (Burton 1993, 81). In Alabama and Georgia it was ruled to be a felony charge while the other four states deemed the infraction only a misdemeanor. The logic for a felony charge was that if someone violated this law and a death occurred then capital punishment was the reasonable as punishment. Alabama and Georgia would later repeal their laws (Burton 1993, 81).
The legislation banning the practice is by its very nature problematic. First the laws were quite vague in both the opinion of law enforcement officials (i.e. the police and sheriff's departments) and prosecuting attorneys. The law as interpreted by the authorities precluded arrest, because local sheriffs generally believed that if a person felt there were danger, he or she would leave. Thus the clause mandating that bystanders have to be in danger for an arrest to be made was rendered void. The other reason is that as often as not, there was not enough evidence to prosecute a snake handler effectively (Burton 1993, 84).
As previously mentioned, the application of these laws is very problematic. A second issue involved in banning snake handling centers on the question, Are legal sanctions an effective means of deterence? Beyond trying and convicting snake handlers, however, will legal action ever stop the snake handlers from worshipping in this fashion? More pointedly: Will the arrest of these people stimulate more snake handling, due to the publicity of the arrest and, or in some sense, martyr the "perpetrators?" An answer from the snake handlers is found in Acts 5:29, "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Burton 1993, 85). If this quote is any indication, then laws will not stop snake handlers from worshipping in their own, albeit, peculiar, fashion.
| Profile | Beliefs | Issues & Controversies | Links | Bibliography | Audio/Video |

IV. Links to Snake Handling Web Sites
"They Shall Take Up Serpents
This article by Ted Olsen focuses on the early history and the role of George W. Hensley in the beginning of the movement. The article appeared in Christianity Today in Spring, 1998.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/58h/58h025.html
They Shall Take Up Serpents
Transcript and audio in RealTime of a November 30, 1992 segment from National Public Radio's All Things Considered, David Isay, Producer. Time: 22 minutes.
http://www.soundports.org/serpents.html
Religious Snake Handling
A small web page with useful information on Snake Handling and the Law.
http://www.members.tripod.com/Yeltsin/index.html
"Snakes, Miracles and Biblical Authority"
Terry Mattingly, who writes a weeking religion column for the Scripps Howard News Service, devotes this column to a friendship between Bill Leonard, Dean of the Divinity School at Wake Forest University and Brother Arnold Saylor a celebrated snake handler who died a natural causes at the age of 91.
"Taking Up Serpents"
Article appearing in the Augusta Chronicle about a 23-year-old preacher who was bitten by a timber and nearly didn't live to talk about it. http://augustachronicle.com/headlines/062996/062996serpent.html
Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance (site for the discussion of Mark 16)
The Ontario Consultants give an informative discussion of the biblical veracity of snake handling through a look into Mark 16.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mark_16.htm
Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance (site for the discussion of faith healing)
In this section of the web page the Ontario Consultants look into the practice of faith healing. The site mentions snake handlers prominently in their discussion.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical.htm
Bible Gateway
(A search engine for the bible; a helpful tool in finding the passages specifically relevant to snake handling.) The Bible Gateway site gives direct access to an online Bible. A useful tool for studying the passages quoted on this page more carefully.
http://bible.gospelcom.net
| Profile | Beliefs | Issues & Controversies | Links | Bibliography | Audio/Video |

V. Bibliography
Birckhead, Jim. 1997.
"Snake Handlers: Critical Reflections" in Stephen D. Glazier, (ed). Anthropology of Religion: A Handbook. Westport, CT: Praeger. pp. 19-84.
This rather lengthy essay is substantially a methodological statement about how the author conducted ethnographic research on snake handlers over many years. It also contains a brief literature review and a substantial bibliography..
Burton, Thomas. 1993.
Serpent Handling Believers. Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press.
This book is an excellent source on snake handling. Burton gives a detailed description and study of the practice as well as a thorough discussion of the controversies surounding snake handling.
Covington, Dennis. 1995.
Salvation on Sand Mountain: Snake Handling and Religion in Southern Appalachia. New York: Penguin Books.
Written by a journalist about his own experience with the Church of Jesus with Signs Following located in Scottsboro, Alabama. Covington covers in great detail the attempted murder trial of the Church's pastor Glen Summerford.
Hood, Ralph W. Jr. 1998.
"When the Spirit Maims and Kills: Social Psychological Considerations for the History of Serpent Handling Sects and the Narrative of Handlers," International Journal for the Psychology of Religion. 8(2), 71-96.
Hood, Ralph W. Jr., W. Paul Williamson, and Ronald J. Morris. 2000.
"Changing Views of Serpent Handling: A Quasi-Experimental Study," Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion. 39(3), 287-296.
Kimborough, David L. 1995.
Taking up the Serpents: Snake Handling Believers of Eastern Kentucky. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press.
Kimborough's major focus is on the history of the movement. He also offers an interesting study of the effects of the practice on society and society's effect on the practice.
LaBarre, Weston. 1969.
They Take Up Serpents. New York: Schocken Books.
LaBarre, an anthropologist, focuses primarily on the psychological motivations and symbolic meaning of the snake handling ritual. While considered by some to be a classic statement about snake handlers, most contemporary scholars have serious reservations about LaBarre's methodology and the presuppositions he brought to his investigation.
Melton, L. Gordon. 1996.
"Church of God with Signs Following" in Encyclopedia of American Religions, Fifth Edition. Washington, D.C.: Gale Research Inc. p. 636.
A brief but informative history of the Church of God with Signs Following. See also his comments on "Snake Handling" (pp. 83-84). Two short essays that offer excellent background to start a more thorough study of the phenomenon. See also
Poloma, Margaret M. 1998.
"Routinization and Reality: Reflections on Serpents and the Spirit," International Journal for the Psychology of Religion. 8(2), 101-105.
Williamson, W. Paul. 1998.
"Response to a Research Challenge," International Journal for the Psychology of Religion. 8(2), 97-100.
| Profile | Beliefs | Issues & Controversies | Links | Bibliography | Audio/Video |

VI. Video Bibliography
They Shall Take up the Serpents. 1973.
John E. Schrader and Thomas G. Burton, Producers. Johnson City: Eastern Tennessee State University.
This is Professor Burton's first video on snake handlers. In just 15 minutes, it offers a good overview of the beliefs that prompt snake handlers to worship as they do.
The Jolo Serpent-Handlers. 1977.
Karen Kramer, Producer and Director. New York: Image Conversions Systems.
Kramer's video discusses rather thoroughly the snake handlers of Jolo, West Virginia. The video shows a snake hunt and an attempt to heal with prayers. Most interesting are interviews with the snake handlers themselves as to why they participate in this form of worship.
Carson Springs: A Decade Later. 1983.
Thomas G. Burton and Thomas F. Headley, Producers. Johnson City: Eastern Tennessee State University.
Burton and Headley focus on the aftermath of the intense scrutiny on the congregation ten years earlier. Two extensive interviews with the Pastor Alfred Ball and Liston Pack (whose brother's death helped create all the attention in the early 1970's).
Holy Ghost People. 1984.
Directed by Peter Adair, Director and Blair Boyd, Producer for Thistle Films. Comtemporary Films [production company]: CRM/McGraw-Hill Films [distributor].
This film is an excellent in-depth (50 minutes) look at snake handling's history. Extensive footage of interviews with believers and of worship services.
Church vs. State: Following the Signs; A Way of Conflict. 1986.
Thomas G. Burton and Thomas F. Headley, Producers. Johnson City: Eastern Tennessee State University.
Burton and Headley discuss briefly the history of the practice. The bulk of the video revolves around a detailed discussion of the legal battles and issues surrounding snake handling.

Created by Colin Smith
For Soc 257: New Religious Movements
Spring Term, 1998
University of Virginia
Last modified: 05/16/01



Taking Up Serpents
Written: August 11, 1999
Recently I had the opportunity to learn more about America's "Snake Handlers" - a little known, worse understood and even more controversial group of fundamentalist, evangelical churches concentrated mostly in the eastern Appalachian regions. If people know anything, they tend to get their information from sensationalized media accounts written by people with little understanding or sympathy. So why would an atheist be writing about them for an atheist website? Detractors - and there are certainly many with deeply ingrained prejudices against atheists and what they have to say about religion - might quickly guess "ridicule." Nothing could be further from the truth.
The first reason is education - I think that skeptics of religion are well served to be familiar with a variety of religious practices. Ignorance is rarely bliss and seldom makes us better people. Non-American readers might find the material here especially interesting, since I do not think that snake-handling practices have gained much popularity outside the United States. If I am mistaken, I encourage readers to write about their experiences in the Message Forum.
The second reason is related to the first: sometimes, more is revealed about religion by examining its fringes than its center. I have found that many trends in mainstream fundamentalist and evangelical churches are more pronunced in the snake handling congregations. The final reason is in turn related to the second: I believe certain aspects of Christian history have been repeated in the recent (and easier to study) history of snake handlers. In particular, I'm thinking about their conflicts with authorities and nature of their oral traditions.
In all the following discussions, it should be remembered that snake handlers are not crazy, neurotic or psychotic - at least, not more so than any other fundamentalist, evangelical Protestant group. The behaviors they exhibit in their services are indeed unusual and even bizarre, but not inherently more so than the behaviors exhibited in other church services. It should also be remembered that outside of these services, they do very little which might distinguish them from other Protestants. By the standards of their local communities, they are quite normal and well-adjusted citizens.

Origins
But first things first: just who are these snake handlers and where did they come from? The roots can be traced back to America's frontier heritage of the 18th Century. The basis of their style of worship descends directly from the pioneer preachers, frontier revivals and backwoods camp meetings popular in rural America. Snake handling must thus be recognized not as an aberration in American religion, but in fact an intensification of what has long existed.

Although educated Presbyterian preachers visited the region, their more intellectually oriented sermons were not well received. The people in these areas were in need of a religiosity more in tune with their unique needs and lifestyle. Traditional presbyterianism thus tended to be discarded in favor of Baptist lay preachers who very early on began making headway among the rural populace. The lay preachers had only a fragmentary knowledge of the bible and an ever worse understanding of traditional theology, but they did know their audience well - often living among them and earning their bread as a subsistence farmer, just as everyone else in their congregation. Sermons were highly emotional affairs, delivered as a reaction to local needs and according to local standards. And local meant very local - just the people who were able to walk or ride a short distance to a makeshift church.
With the advent of the 20th century came industrial capitalism - and the death of the traditional way of life for most people in the Appalachian region. In a series of rapid social transformations, subsistence farmers were pressured into selling ancestral lands or had those lands taken from them outright, eliminating any chance of an autonomous existence. In place of subsistence farming grew a profit-oriented, cash-based coal mining economy which helped destroy intricate kinship networks which had always served as a social safety-net in hard times. As profits became more important than people and families, individuals became little more than commodities in the industrial machines of eastern capitalists. Miners were paid little, and what they did make went right back to the companies in the form of rent for company housing and high-interest loans for substandard products at company stores. People brave - or foolhardy - enough to try and buck the system were quickly made examples of. I can't begin to do justice to the horrendous conditions which became the daily lives of the people of Appalachia.
Quote of the week:

Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects

-James Madison (1751-1836)
The traditional churches, often sponsored by the large mining companies for the age-old purpose of keeping the workers in line, lacked both the local emotionalism and the sensitivity to local needs. For such reasons, people began joining emerging sects with names like Church of God, Pentecostal and Holiness Church, and Free Will Baptist. The preachers here, like their ancestors, were lay preachers who knew their audience because they were laborers like their audience. The workers were naturally attracted to a preacher who could identify directly with their problems than with someone who never had to descend into a black mine. These churches also offered a new forum of self-expression of personal religiosity not otherwise available in company towns and company churches.

Taking up Serpents
The Holiness "snake handlers" grew out of the Church of God Holiness congregations in the first decades of this century. The basic doctrine which separates them from other fundamentalist groups is the idea that the presence of the Holy Ghost in their services gives them the power to heal the sick, perform exorcisms, speak in new tongues, drink poisonous or toxic substances like strychnine and battery acid, and of course handle deadly serpents. These beliefs are derived directly from Mark 16:17-18
And these signs will accompany those who believe: by using my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes in their hands, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.
Adherents are also able to cite several other biblical passages supporting their unusual beliefs and practices:
See, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing will hurt you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice at this, that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." (Luke 10:19-20)
Paul had gathered a bundle of brushwood and was putting it on the fire, when a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. When the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, "This man must be a murderer; though he has escaped from the sea, justice has not allowed him to live." He, however, shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. They were expecting him to swell up or drop dead, but after they had waited a long time and saw that nothing unusual had happened to him, they changed their minds and began to say that he was a god. (Acts 28:3-6)
Some believers are also convinced that Jesus himself was a snake handler like them, quoting John 20:30 "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book." The point out that Jesus is recorded as performing the other signs listed in Mark such as healing, exorcism and raising the dead - and then add that Jesus would not ask his followers to do anything which he himself would not also do.
Another practice which has at times lost in popularity but which has nevertheless been historically popular is the handling of fire. Although this is not listed among the signs of Mark, believers are able to cite biblical passages in support of fire handling:
When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. (Isaiah. 43:2)
In this you rejoice, even if now for a little while you have had to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith –being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire –may be found to result in praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. (1 Peter 1:6-7)

Ritual vs. Belief
Eminent sociologist Emile Durkheim offered an idea of a "nonobvious theory of religion," in which the key to religion is not so much beliefs and doctrines, but instead the social rituals which in turn form the substance of social solidarity. I think that this is vitally important here, because we are looking at a society which fragmented terribly from a foreign influence. In these conditions, as the social fabric begins to tear and become unrecognizable, people will begin to look for any possible means to repair the damage and save their communities. As J.Wayne Flynt pointed out in his studies, snake handling occurrs mostly in peripheral areas of Appalachia which have experienced the most dramatic transformations from farming to capitalism and not in the more isolated areas where traditions have survived largely intact. I think it is clear that dangerous religious rituals like snake handling and poison drinking arise to help members deal with what must have be the humiliation accompanying the degradation and destruction of traditional values.
One way of coping with new and foreign ideas is to not only reject them, but to adopt practices abhorrent to the intruders. Social unity is more easily created when the marks of the "in group" are clear and unambiguous. It is no coincidence that most people don't engage in snake handling in their everyday lives. Social unity is also served by the creation of a worldview with only two basic classes: good vs. evil. All aspects of church services work to reinforce the idea that church members are the only ones who are really serving God, but that they must ever vigilant that the outside forces serving Satan don't overcome them.

Satan & Symbols
Satan plays almost as big a role in the world of snake handlers as does God. Poor health was attributed to Satan's influence. Problems associated with childbirth were attributed to Satan. Perhaps worst of all, deaths resulting from snake bites were attributed to a lack of faith in God and the power of Satan. People choose to take up poisonous snakes, although some believers seem to attribute such actions to the power of the Holy Spirit, and not their own free will. When they do so successfully and without injury, the results are attributed to God. If they are bitten but suffer no ill effects or at least heal, the results are attributed to God. But if they suffer and eventually die, the blame is placed first with the victim's lack of faith and then second on the ever-present influence of Satan which members must learn to be wary of.
By "following the signs" and engaging in practices like handling snakes or faith healing, they perform rituals which reinforce their separation and demonstrate the God walks among them, but not with others. Rituals are thus goal-oriented activities and serve larger social purposes not directly linked to the ostensible beliefs underlying them.
As a further development, the snake became not simply a symbol of Satan, but also the evil capitalists invading their communities and destroying their traditional ways of living. But more than that, the serpent was an intermediary in the battle between good and evil. By handling a snake and surviving, a person proved that the power of God was triumphant over the power of both Satan and exploitative outsiders. In a symbolic fashion, a congregation member not only proved their worth to triumph over death and enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but also personally and spiritually triumphed over the capitalist mine owners bent on controlling him or her.

Power and Congregations
Congregation members will generally offer three different bases for their ability to handle fire, handle serpents and consume deadly substances. The first is "anointing" - this is the most common, and is supposed to be when God gives individual believers the power to perform miracles in His Name. The second means by which they perform miracles is their "faith." This means that when a believer has sufficient confidence in the power and grace of God, then no harm can possibly come to them. As mentioned above, a strong faith means that you will survive, but death usually means that you didn't really have the strong faith which you should have.
A final source of power is supposed to be "innocence" - in the doctrines of snake handlers, young children have the ability to take up deadly serpents without fear of harm because they are too young to yet sin willfully. In many congregations, children do indeed handle snakes and do in fact manage to survive unscathed. Sometimes even infants are kept near snakes as their parents handle the serpents in religious ecstasy. But in at least as many other churches, children are not permitted near free snakes as they are being handled. Perhaps in those congregations, the theology of innocence does not hold sway. Or perhaps, the members realize the dangers involved and don't want to risk their children, no matter what the doctrines advise. This would be expected if the rituals are there more for social cohesion than because of real beliefs.

[BWSmith]

Chuck, can we have alittle longer post with more detail :D

[SCReptiles]

I don’t suppose many will read that, but now they can not say they only have that video to base things on. =)

[drewlowe]

I read it that thing took forever. the only part i skipped was the references. will look over that part when i'm not so tired. Thanks for more insite Chuck.

[MouseKilla]

That took me for ever to read (I have to scroll back and forth with my browser) but I enjoyed it, very informative. I'm not converting just yet but I can see where they're coming from for sure. I was raised Pentacostal myself and grasp the concept of protection and healing by the Holy Spirit. I found the socio-economic side of the history especially interesting. The suggestion that they used these rituals to demonstrate that God is on their side and not on the side of the "evil capitalist" mine owners made me wonder if the modern snake handlers form part of the pro-capitalist religious right in America. I saw a documentary done in the '70's about some Kentucky miners that were trying to unionize. The owners hired scabs to replace them and used bats, clubs and guns to penetrate the workers picket line. I didn't think much of it at the time but these workers were constantly praying and calling on God to help them and there families to overcome the company's "gun thugs". I wonder now if some of the workers might have been snake handlers. Even if they were not, their faith and their circumstance, even their geography was very simillar. If the modern snake handlers are now Republicans at the voter's booth I find this to be very conflicted. It doesn't jive with the idea of also having miner's union meetings at the local church as those workers had. I know you've dug up a lot of info already, SCR but I'm hoping you can further enlighten me on the political beliefs of this very interesting group of people.

[Lizzy001]

i'v seen it....

they most need medical help of some kind and of course pyschiolical too!!

[marisa]

That really wasn't needed IMHO...

I don't feel these people are off their rockers, I do not feel they are stupid and I certainly don't feel they need help.

I never insulted them but I do find the fact they are more willing to die than spread their message wrong. But your comments above are so uncalled for in a thread like this.

Marisa

[lordkovacs]

ya, please explain yourself more clearly chuch! haha...j/k!

[TheRedDragon]

Geez drewlowe, your avatar is creepy! *L*

I've never seen that show, but it sure sounds messed up.

[corr]

RD, the clown is from Stephen King's movie It. Go ahead and rent it... if you dare! :jawdrop:

[MouseKilla]

RD, how about the girl in your avatar, is she featured in any movies? LOL! just playin

[AymKing]

All in all I think it's ok to argee to disagree, let's remember the most important thing.....love one another =o)

[Bryce Masuk]

Originally posted by The_Omen
Strichnine is also what is used to make acid for the trippers here :)
Sorry wrong I dont feel like writing out a complete responce so i will copy and paste this was written by alexander t shulgin

"The observation of strychnine as being present in any street drug, as a by-product, or a contaminant, or an impurity has never been documented. It is a natural plant product, as are the ergots which are used in the synthesis of LSD. But they come from totally unrelated plants; there has never been a report of strychnine and an ergot alkaloid co-existing in a single species. So if the two materials are together in a drug sample, it could only be by the hand of man. I have personally looked a large number of illicit street offerings and have never detected the presence of strychnine. The few times that I have indeed found it present, have been in legal exhibits where it usually occurred in admixture with brucine (also from the plant Strychnos nux-vomica) in criminal cases involving attempted or successful poisoning.

The same argument applies to the myth that occasionally surfaces, that strychnine occurs in the white tufts of peyote. This is equally fraudulent -- it has never been reported in that cactus or any other cactus."
Furthermore, it should probably be spelled out that strychnine is not needed to bond LSD to blotter paper, nor is strychnine a breakdown product of LSD. these are probably the two most commonly repeated gross misconceptions.

The source of the "strychnine is commonly found in LSD" myth may be somewhat grounded in truth. For example, in "LSD: My Problem Child" Albert Hofmann cites a case in the late sixties of Strychnine being found in an "LSD" sample that was a white powder. However, what is commonly claimed is that strychnine is found in a significant percentage of LSD, specifically blotter LSD, which is *not* true. Shulgin's note that he has analyzed many samples of LSD and never found strychnine is backed up by published analyses done by PharmChem and the LA County Street Drug Analysis program, which likewise never found any strychnine.

This is intuitively backed up by the fact that a 5mm x 5mm "standard" square of blotter LSD only weights about 2mg and if the paper itself was made completely out of pure strychnine it is still on the very low end of Strychnine's threshold of activity.

Strychnine is not the cause of tracers, cramps, nausea, or amphetamine-like LSD-effects. Its possible that poorly synthesized LSD might have other ergot derivatives in it, which might contribute to the harsh body load that some get on taking LSD. Also, the very close chemical relatives 1-Methyl-LSD and 1-Acetyl-LSD (which break down into LSD in aqueous solution) might be present in some street samples and might contribute to the harsh body load. (Petter Stafford has claimed in his _Psychedelics Encyclopedia_ that 1-Acetyl-LSD is supposedly "smoother" than d-LSD -- thus "strychnine laced acid" may acutally be pure d-LSD, while "pure lsd" may be 1-Acetyl-LSD or some substitute). And the chemicals iso-LSD and lumi-LSD which are breakdown products of LSD might contribute to the body loading on some trips, particularly via a hypothetical synergistic effect. Given this plethora of possible chemicals in street "LSD", its not needed to look to a chemical which has hardly ever been found in analyzed samples to explain variations in the strength and "cleanliness" of street acid.

Its also possible that LSD itself simply causes adverse physical effects, particularly muscle cramping, in persons suceptible to it. The reported side effects of LSD (the nausea and apparent CNS stimulant effects) are commonly reported side effects of seritonergic drugs such as fluoxetine (Prozac) and buspirone (Buspar), and also are commonly reported (and typically more severe) with other psychedelics like Mescaline.

Or its quite likely that the "strychnine" reactions to LSD are entirely psychosomatic. Both Leary ("The Psychedelic Experience") and Lilly ("Programming and Metaprogramming...", "Center of the Cyclone") have each observed this reaction in people who cannot handle the surge of emotion associated with a trip.

Further advice would be to avoid methylxanthines (caffiene, theophylline in tea, etc) prior to dosing. Some have noted a possible synergistic effect between them and LSD causing, or contributing, to a harsh body load during a trip. And prior use of dramamine may alleviate the nausea sometimes associated with LSD, and other psychedelic drugs (although it may also effect the quality of the trip -- Shulgin has noted in PiHKAL that he shuns the use of anti-nauseants in order to experience the effects of the psychedelic, both good and bad, with no possible interference).

In summary, it can't be said that we know specifically why sometimes acid feels "cleaner" than other times. However, based on the availability of plausible explanations, and the evidence of drug analysis, and general implausiblity of the whole strychnine concept, we can conclude that it isn't due to any concentration of strychnine. Also, while it can't completely be ruled out, the presence of strychnine in LSD is so minimal that the majority of LSD users will never once come across it."

[TheRedDragon]

Originally posted by MouseKilla
RD, how about the girl in your avatar, is she featured in any movies? LOL! just playin

Yeah, it's called "How the Dragon squashed the wee Mouse Killa" *LOL* ;)

Corr: Yeah, I've seen the movie and read/own the book. The knowledge of what that clown is makes it all the more creepy. *L*

[Mr.Lizard]

In my opinion anyone who willfully risks life and serious injury either for kicks or as a testament to their faith or machismo is being irresponsible. Risking one's self is commendable only when it is for the purpose of protecting the safety of another or advancing knowledge for the benefit of others.
I have no problem with saying that to anyone whether they agree with me or not, regardless of the risk of an a$$-whoopin'.

[Oliverian]

The knowledge of what that clown is makes it all the more creepy. Oohhhh.... tell me.. what is it? Now I want to see the movie! ;)

[SCReptiles]

I have no problem with saying that to anyone whether they agree with me or not, regardless of the risk of an a$$-whoopin'.
I never said that I or them would whoop anyone for disagreeing, I said it would happen if you went to Sand Mtn and called them names like Nut case and inbreed. People come to the services all the time and do not agree with what they do. They are fine with it. They welcome me every time I go. They are warm loving people for the most part. I will be happy to take anyone from this site to a true serpent handling service any Friday night. You can meet them and see what they are like first hand. Disagree and they will talk to you. Shoot your mouth off, like some did on this thread, and I will have carry you off Sand Mtn on my shoulder. =) Is that clear?

[TheRedDragon]

Oliverian: Go to this thread here; drewlowe gives an AWESOME explanation of the movie:


http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24007