how do u guys...

[remsin76]

hey i dont have experience with venemous creatures but do you guys handle your snakes, liek a person would do wiht something liek a boa??? or are they mostly for show ?? are there any venemous snakes that make great pets?? thanks

[unBOAlievable]

No!
Responsable venomous keepers do not handle there snakes like a boa. There are certain procedures and specialized tools for working with venomous reptiles.

When the reptiles are handled it should be for medical reasons not for show.

There are no venomous that should be termed as pets. I do become attached to them and care greatly for there wellbeing but they are not my pets. They are treated with great respect, I like having all of my fingers and the use of my arms and not to mention living.

[Matt]

i think eveyone would agree that hots are alot different than non venomous snakes, they are absolutely not pets....you cannot interact with them like you could a cornsnake

[BWSmith]

Alot of patience, respect, and handling equipment. The second you trat it like a boa, bad things happen.

[Mustangrde1]

well that about covered it all. they are beautiful animals and wonderful to look at but handling one without the tools could be a fatal mistake.

[Gregg M]

Anything that can kill you would not make a good pet........ I think it is safe to say that most if not all of us here use the proper tools to handle our venomous snakes....... Tools used are hooks, grabbers, clear tubes, rubbermaid containers, pinners(in some cases), face shield( for spitters), Heavy work gloves, Shin gaurds, and so on........ I may have missed a few things....... It would be pretty much suiside to treat a venomous snake like a boa....... One bite from some species is enough to kill someone pretty quick...... And if you do not die you will be missing a finger or two at best........ Is it worth it to free handle hots???? I dont think so....... But there will allways be a few ignorant people out there that think its cool to do it......

[remsin76]

so what domost of u guys do with ur snakes? use them for medical research? show?

[Mustangrde1]

Remsin76

very few people actually do medical research.Most of that type of work is done with high quality labs. As you need to have very clean and steryl conditions to be assured you that there are no contaminates in your venom. It is called "VENOM PRODUCTION" this is done for medical research and to make antivenom but again it is normally done in a controled clean area.

I think most the keepers on here keep them for personal enjoyment , others keep them for educating the public and some sell them some breed them for sale also. Venomous keeping is is a hobby like keeping non-venomous . God I know im asking for it for that. { Disclaimer/Warning} " Keeping of venomous snakes require many years of traning and time and patents and not for a begginer or enexperianced person and should only be done after qualified instruction." think that should save my butt from a few people's comments lol.

Maybe Cobraman or Brian can get more into the educational and venom production aspect of keeping Hots.

Ok now i have to get coffee before I keep typing on and on lol

[SCReptiles]

There are hot keepers who believe in free handling venomous snakes. It’s mostly frowned upon in public forums, but it’s a part of the venomous sub-culture. It kind of breaks down like this. Herpers are a sub-culture among the general population. The general population thinks herpers are insane and often casts dispersions on them. Venomous keepers are a sub-culture among herpers. Normal herpers think venomous keepers are insane and often cast dispersions on them. Free handlers are a sub-culture among venomous keepers. Free handlers are considered insane by normal venomous keepers and they often cast dispersions on them. Do you see the cycle here? There was some very interesting pictures of freehandlers and discussion on the SHHS speakout page last month. If you are interested in the subject, check them out at http://www.venomousreptiles.org/speakout/opinions/59

[SCReptiles]

Claims freehanling is better for the snake. Says his gabbys are over 15 years old.

I need to give a disclaimer that I do not promote freehandling. I am just simply letting you know it is out there.

[BWSmith]

My opinions on free handling hots has been well documented. Too tired for a rant tonight ;)

[Mustangrde1]

Hmmm wouldnt want to be the receiving end of that venom. Or for that matter any, i still think the right tools are the best way for my safty. I know someone who free handles certain hots well umm he knows who he is lol. Stick to my guns err hooks

[Gregg M]

I really dont want to get into this but I am forced to do so because it is in my face....... The person doing the handling in that pic is either real stupid or that snake is a void....... In either case you should not have posted that pic....... I am suprized you did not jump all over this one BW....... Again another fool trying to ruin what I have worked for....... He will get bit some day and it will be soon if that how he handles hots....... And a bite from a gaboon that big will take a few fingers without a problem....... Even if he started a drip 10 minutes after a bite he is loosing something....... I am willing to bet that snake is a void...... Too bad that snake didnt get to me before it went to a hack....... Please do not post anymore pics like that if it is possable....... I understand you put the disclaimer and all but it is still not a good idea to post stupidity like that........ Thanks.....

[Gregg M]

If that gaboon is over 15 years old why is it so small...... My 5 yearold is over 5 feet........ 5ft 4in to be exact..... She is pictured in a couple of post below.......

[BWSmith]

Now I have known several people that have freehandled. I have NEVER met one that freehandled all the time. They still used a hook or tongs on occasion if not most of the time. My question is WHY FREEHANDLE when tools are there? It is not logical. Is it the fact that the handler is loser to death and it is a rush? Is it to show off? (The pic is simple showing off to drunken buddies it looks like to me). Freehandling islike Russian Roulette, you may get away with it for a while, but eventually you will lose. While on that image (which is not new to me), what happens if that Gabby gets nasty? No handling equipment and a pissed off Bitis? Sure don't sound like fun to me! How would that creature be secured? His buddy with the dumb grin gonna pick it up after it bites him?

The bottom line is that venomous husbandry is dangerous enough. Why would anyone take 10 times the risk by free handling? Think of it this way: Being on a SWAT team is VERY dangerous, people thinkthey are crazy. But they have the right tools. Does it make sense for a SWAT member to raid armed coke heads with no weapon? Even in the most dangerous professions, there are safety measures to lessen the risk and there are proper tools for the job. Not using proper procedures or proper tools or, worse yet, HAVING them and taking unneccisary risks is not logical, tough, or impressive. It is unneccesay and a stupid risk that begs the question of common sense. I have yet to hear ONE remotely viable reason for freehandling.

[cobraman]

Dare I get into this one????yes, appearantly I do! First of all, in defence of Bill Haast (a good friend, and former boss of mine), Bill's reputation for free handling venomous is a little exagerated(see quote from Venomous reptiles dot org: "from the greatly respected Bill Haast known for his free handling ") Whit I think is being refered to here is back in his show days. I can tell you, with factual knowledge that Bill does NOT free handle hots, with the exception of his (and mine) technique of catching cobras by distracting with one hand, and catching with the other. This is not a technique that I recommend to anyone, but speaking for myself and Mr. Haast, it is faster than pinning (not to mention that it is less harmful and less stressful to the cobra). Bill and I work with sometimes up to 100 venomous snakes a day (in venom production, not simply collecting and cleaning a few cages). Most of the readers of this forum are not involved in venom production, or dealing with a large number of snakes (in Bill's case up to 1400, and in my case up to 600 at any givin day). I am not in any way trying to justify or otherwise rationalize my handling habits (or Bill's), and as Scott (aka Mustangrde1) will tell you, I personally would not want anyone around me who does everything I do in terms of venomous snakes. Another issue that I won't get into again is the fact that both Bill and I self immunize (again, not an attemp to rationalize). I will go on record as saying that there is NO WAY I would ever pick up a Gaboon like the person pictured above (nor would Mr. Haast). My bet, like Gregg M, is that that is a venomoid. If not, ....well,I won't even go there.
So for the record, I too am opposed to free handling hots, so much so that I will not be around anyone that is doing it. I have lost enough friends to snake bites. I do what I do (with cobras) with or without anyone else in my building, so in my case it can't be chalked up as showing off. I will admit that most of the times I have observed free handling, showing off appeared to be a factor.
Be Blessed, all!
Ray Hunter

[cobraman]

I sure do wish this thing had a spell checker, Please excuse all the typos in the above. I need to start reading what I write, before submitting it.
Blessings
Ray

[BWSmith]

"Flash and Grab" is another dangerous practice in my opinion, but it is still not the same as freehandling. With F&G, you KNOW there is a strike coming. Freehandling is different. It is treating a venomous species like it was harmelss. F&G is at least knowing what is coming at you and that it IS coming at you. Many do not have a strong working knowledge of Cobras it is hard to describe to others why F&G is not neccessarily as dangerous as Free Handling. (Man, that was a bold statement! I guess it illustrates how dangerous I feel free handling is!)

I enjoyed your input Ray. Even if I don't agree with ALL of your handling techniques, there is still respect. And I am VERY glad to hear that you recognize the vast differences between vipers and elapids in handling techniques. Two VERY different creatures. Though both deadly and not to be trifled with. I am still opposed to freehandling of hots of any sort. But I will tail one that is too large with ahook under the front 1/3. Does that make me a hipocrit? Perhaps. But getting a 65 foot Forest back inthe cage is a chore all to itself, I don't think I have ever seen it done without tailing.

So many variations on handling....... *sigh* ..........
At least there are very few I am adamantly opposed to :)

[reverendsterlin]

after 35 years without a hot bite, I sometimes cringe when I have to handle, odds always go against you sooner or later. Tools, awareness, practice, and experience always help but then again always put you in a position the average cornsnake keeper never gets into lol. Measure your ability or awareness wrong at any time...

[Gregg M]

LOL Rev..... That is some record you got there......(knock on wood)...... I thought mine was good...... But Ive only be keeping hots for half that time....... I still get alittle nervous when I handle...... Especialy the big ones........ I Tail the larger ones ....... Most people never get to know the power a gaboon viper has when it is an adult........ All they see are these cute little neonates........ When an adult gaboon pulls back on its self while on a hook it can a big problem if you are not an experianced handler........ I think that holding a gaboon like that is a sure way to get bit....... There would be nothing in the world that could stop that snake from sinking fangs into that person........ They are just too fast an powerful and they do not show any real display before they strike......... And in close range like that by the time you do see the signs it is too late......... And also Gaboons are way too acurate........ I all my years of keeping gaboons, I have yet to see one miss its intended target...... A cobra can be calculated and also distracted pretty easily........ Once a gaboon is set on something, thats it...... Ray, I would say your way of handling cobras is dangerous but it is a calculated risk........ You have the experiance and you were taught by one of the best....... You are well respected and you input on this forum is very important....... See you at Hamburg on saturday......

[SCReptiles]

Gregg M, you have proved my point beyond a shadow of doubt! “The person doing the handling in that pic is either real stupid….” What did I say about casting dispersions on the sub culture below you? “In either case you should not have posted that pic” and “Please do not post anymore pics like that if it is possible.” Do you not see the cycle here? If I had posted a pic of you tailing your gaboon in a ball python forum, there would be feed back calling you a fool, the same way you did Nick. And if I posted a pic of someone holding a ball python in a cat lovers forum, again he would be called a fool. In all cases they would say the same things, it’s an unnecessary risk…they are going to mess up things for all of us. Pretty much exactly what you said. Is it not clear to you that the culture above you feels the same way about you keeping venomous as you feel about free handling? Sure, you can’t understand why anyone would do it. The culture above you just can not understand why you would do what you do. Does that mean free handlers lose their privilege because the wider culture doesn’t agree with it? If that is true, then you will lose your privilege to keep venomous, cause the more vast herp community does not agree with. And then the herp community will lose their privilege to keep any reptiles because the wider popular culture does not agree with it. “I understand you put the disclaimer and all but it is still not a good idea to post stupidity like that.” Two points on that statement, one: may be redundant, but you tailing your gaboon is considered stupidity by most people. Two: When someone asks a question, it is my policy to answer is as honestly has possible. Free handling and venomoids are the hottest subject in venomous herpiculture. Whenever young herpers ask questions in this area, usually they just get stroked with the same old tired lines and no one really answers them. Remsin76 asked if people handle their snakes. And the honest answer is yes. I told him it was widely discouraged, but it is done. Their were plenty of people speaking out against free handling, so I felt it prudent to present the opposite point of view. Nick was the best example I could think of. I do not know him personally, only thru what he posted on my forum last month. He was very adamant in his statements. If that snake is a void, it would make him look very hypocritical. I have not seen the snake, so I do not know either way. Some pics of me free handling cased a rift with a friend of mine. Far as I know, we are the only venomous keepers in our area. He was pretty upset. He felt if I were tagged is could effect his privilege to keep. I understood his point, he has invested a great deal of time and money in his operation and he does not need that jeopardized. On his own he reasoned thru the things I just posted and called me saying I had the right to do it if I wanted. And of course I reassured him I would not do anything to jeopardize his operation. And the rift was bridged. It is my opinion laws are only changed in the event of public outcry. Venomous keepers are tagged all the time, and the general public really doesn’t care. It’s when irresponsible keepers allow snakes to escape that the public is concerned and then comes the out cry and then comes new laws. If you have trouble believing that, ask the good people of AL.

[BWSmith]

I understand your point Chuck. But i would still love a freehandler to tell me a viable reason for the added risk of the practice. If the tools are there to make it safer (not safe, safer), then why not use them?

[SCReptiles]

I am John Q. Herper using Chuck’s sign on to make my post. BW Smith, I would love for you to tell me a viable reason for the added risk of keeping venomous reptiles if boas, pythons, and colubrids are available.

[SCReptiles]

I am John Q. Public using Chuck’s sign on to make my post. John Q. Herper, I would love for you to tell me a viable reason for the added risk of keeping reptiles if dogs and cats are available.

[Gregg M]

This is realy going nowhere...... Bottom line, There is no good reason to free handle hots....... There are plenty of good reasons to keep hots...... Chuck, you are a fellow hot keeper so you know why we do what we do....... What does some one that freehandles hots do that is good for our hobby????? Nothing....... But what it will do is ruin this hobby........ And all it takes is one bite to start the wheels turning..... You know that when that guy gets bit the papers will be all over it........ Now what does bad press do to us??? I think you know........ Stupid acks like that will affect us all....... No way around it....... These snakes are not to be taken lightly........ That pic above just shows how ignorant some people realy are....... Freehandlers are the super minority in this hobby....... What does that tell you???? Chuck you do bring up some good points and I am sure you have some very valuable info to share with all of us but you can never get me to join the darker side of hot keeping......LOL...... Well this is the last time I answer this post........ I am sure everyone now knows my stand on freehandling hots....... Oh, and tailing is something that evey hot keeper needs to do at some point, so I dont think any other hot keeper will call me crazy for that.......

[unBOAlievable]

Good points Chuck,
I do realize everyone should have the right to do as they choose as long as it does not affect other people. That is why I called you and apologized, I have no right to force my views on someone else, nor do I want someone to force there views on me.

I choose to do things as safely as possible, I use lockout boxes, I do not just promote them, I use hooks, tubes and pinners for medical purposes. I have even been made fun of by venomous keepers because I use lockout/trap boxes, comments like "what, you don't know how to handle them" or " are you afraid of them" (these comments were not by Chuck) why do I use them, because I do not want to take extra chances doing everyday maintenance. I do it for me and I do it for fellow venomous keepers. I do it as a courtesy to them as I would like them to do for me.

True the basic population looks at us the same whether we are freehandelers or we just got tagged cleaning out a timbers mouth that had stomatitis.

The basic population doesn't understand, but as venomous keepers we do and aren't we the ones that really matter? Not the general public.

They will never understand why we keep venomous, nor do I expect them to. Beit the freehandler or the trap box user, none of us wants to lose our rights, I do everything in my power to make sure that doesn't happen, the most I can hope for is that everyone else is doing the same.

[SCReptiles]

Gregg, if I came across as trying to win you over to free handling, then I defiantly miss spoke. I do not encourage anyone to do it. It’s by nature dangerous and should only be undertaken if it’s truly what the person wants. True, I am a hot keeper and I understand why we take the added risk, as where a corn snake keeper never will. I am also a free handler, and understand why we do it, as where many venomous keepers never will. As for your question, “what does free handling add to the hobby?” I revert to my same point; a boa keeper would ask you “What does venomous herpetology add to the hobby?” I can’t necessarily agree with you on the point of the press jumping on the story of keepers getting bit. I teach a class on this, approximately 7000 venomous snake bites are reported annually in the United States. Virtually none get any media coverage. I am always on the lookout for materials to use in my class and articles just rarely appear. I think we should be much more concerned with inexperienced keepers allowing escapes then we should keepers taking a bit. The media does jump all over escape stories…they sell papers. “Oh my god, just think of the children. We must put a stop to these escaping snakes for the children.” Man, in this day and age you can take the right to vote away from women and blacks if you just claim it’s “for the children.” Ha ha. Compare venomous snakes to guns. Those soft-hearted liberals are constantly after our right to keep guns, but they never use suicide stories or statistics in their campaigns. The general public has no concern if you or I kill ourselves. But if we use that same gun near a school, well, you know what would happen. If you or I take a bit, it would get no media coverage. If by chance we die, it may get a small story in the back somewhere, but if your 6’ gaboon was discovered crawling down the street, even though it had not hurt anyone, front page “Giant deadly venomous snake discovered on the streets of your town.” Eye witness interview “Man, I had just got off work at the mill and was on my way to see my girl Denise and there it was. Man, that thing could have killed some children.” Some know nothing politician would jump all over that. I know you have seen the escape articles….always, always, always, “it could have killed a child.” I am adamant about proper caging on venomous, unBOAlievable can back this up. After he agreed to keep my rattlers, I came by his place to check his set up before I actually brought over the snakes. (Side note: He has the best snake room I have ever seen! I would trust him with anything.) I understand completely your concerns about losing your keeping privilege. I fell them same, I think we all know that we are on borrowed time if current trends continue. Not only our venomous, but they will also come for the giants before long. Large constrictors are responsible for more deaths than captive hots in the US, and some know-nothing politician will get wind of that and run with it before too long. I hope I do not give the impression of dissension, I feel very strongly about community among herpers. I always like to show both sides of any discussion.

[SCReptiles]

Anthony, perhaps those guys are enjoying themselves immensely right now, making fun of your lock boxes. But a year or two down the road, you will be making fun of them when you have pick up their snakes for them because they no longer have fingers. Ha ha. There is a time, a place, and a snake for free handling. Not all of them will take to it. I doubt anyone would care to grab up that CB 2000 diamondback that you housed for me. =) He would make a free handler jump back to the higher sub-culture very quickly. I am going to the VA reptile museum tonight. You should make that trip with me some day. I will be back tomorrow and will be going on a cottonmouth hunt in Madison, AL on Sunday. If you are free, we’d love to have you join us. Another scuba diver is going, I am trying to convince him that you two should snorkel the swamp. Ha ha.

[BWSmith]

As for your question, “what does free handling add to the hobby?” I revert to my same point; a boa keeper would ask you “What does venomous herpetology add to the hobby?”
I do not think that this is a valid argument. The issue at hand is freehandling. Freehandling is not a possession issue, it is a methodology issue.

And I agree whole-heartedly that we are on borrowed time. But everything we can do to delay or prevent the banning of hots is advantagious to us all. By portraying ourselves as responsible keepers, using all of the safety emasures available, we help our cause a little. And every little bit helps.

I will use a firearm analogy. Firearms are considered dangerous. In the wrong hands or if used carelessly, they ARE dangerous and can be deadly. There are methods for safe handling of firearms. What would you think of a person who disregarded those methods? What would you think of a person who checked to see if it was loaded by pulling the trigger? I would want to distance myself from them as they are a danger to themselves and those around them. Granted a gun and a snake are two very different entities, but the underlying example is valid I think. It is not about posession, it is about methods. If there are methods to make a dangerous object or situation safer, then why not use them?

I love having both sides represented. Makes for a very interesting discussion and offers each side of the argument some insight into the other. :)

[SCReptiles]

BW, point taken! My statement about the boa keeper not understanding the venomous keeper is not a valid argument for free handling. But I didn’t intend it to be. There is an old saying “if I have to explain, you couldn’t understand.” My statement was a more articulate way of saying that same thing. I do not believe there is a reason for free handling someone opposed to it would consider viable. Just like I do not believe there is an argument that non-free handing venomous keepers can present to a person who is opposed to venomous herpetology and have it accepted. Arguments against free handing are all the same, it’s an unnecessary risk. But, the agreement against keeping venomous is exactly the same, it’s an unnecessary risk. You understand fully well why you keep, but can you convey that to John Q. Herper? Nope! People know full well why they free hand, but can they convey it to you? Nope! Venomous keeping and handling are all calculated risks. I rarely do it and encourage it other keepers, but if they are aware of the risk, then I support their privilege to do it. Prime example last night. I am training my friend Joe. We were in AL and he decided he wanted to free hand an AZ coral. He has already free handed and knows the risk and rewards. Before he took it up, I made a point to tell him there is no anti-venom for this species. Once he had full disclosure, I felt it was up to him to decide. Both he and the snake’s owner free handed him with no problem. I elected pass on this one. =)

[BWSmith]

Well, at least you are pickyabout specimens to freehandle. Prehaps i am very passionate against freehandling because there is a snake in my collection that killed a freehandler.

[SCReptiles]

Anthony was telling me a few weeks ago about a large cotton killing someone down your way. It that the snake?

[BWSmith]

yes. Probably the same snake unless he was referring to a recent bite.

[SCReptiles]

Cotton deaths are rare, I assume it’s the same snake. How did you come to have him? We live very close to Sand Mtn, AL so we know lots of religious snake handlers. We know many who have been bitten, few that I have died and seen a few snakes that have killed folks.

[Gregg M]

BWs cotton is a monster....... One of the biggest Ive ever seen in a pic........ That thing can kill a horse.....LOL.......

[BWSmith]

She came to us through a collegue who did a great deal of trading with the preachers. They brought her in a wooden crate with crosses and scripture carved all over it. Like that was not creepy enough, THEY would not touch her! I have seen these people handle Echis! They told us what happened and if we would take her. They stayed with my collegue for a year. Then she came into my posession. I have had her for several years. Three years after she first came in, she decided to drop a couple babies. Talk about my suprise getting ready to clean the cage considering she had never been with a male in either of our cares!

She is over 48" and 8 pounds of ticked off cotton.

[Mustangrde1]

Well, I vouch for what Ray said 100%. He does what he does and its not showing off. I can tell you I have never seen him try to frehandle any viper. And seen him use hooks even on elapids. I must say though after watching a recent live milking show and watching how the pinning of a cobra caused it to struggle and thrash about, Ray's method is far better for the animals health it would appear, I do not condone, nor do I or would I ever freehandle a venomous snake. Safety is always primary. After looking closer at the picture I would be willing to bet that showing off was involved. My personal view is that I would prefer people not knowing I keep them. Furthermore the people that would be aloud to see them is very limited, but that goes for my non-venomous as well, I do not run a petting zoo, I do not need cross contamination or outside parasites or worse brought in to the collection. Both my wife and I work hard to keep healthy quality reptiles. The health and well being of our animals is always primary. Secondly is our health and well being. Therefore the proper tools, time, patients and knowing to ask for help when needed will always be the standard NOT to ever be substituted for speed or friends enjoyment.

I for one hope never to get bit but as a realist I know the odds are against that. However I can and will do everything to minimize the odds. A bite no matter how much you try to hide it from the media will always make news and it does nothing good for our hobby except get animal activist more fuel for their fire and cause politicians to impose tougher laws on us.

[tHeGiNo]

Not being a venomous keeper, I am speaking through my guesses through frequenting this particular forum quite often. As far as the point of keeping hots vs. keeping a boa/python, I believe that venomous keepers have many valid reasons for doing so. It is a privilage to be able to keep such amazing, yet dangerous, snakes and we must respect the power they have to bring upon death. I believe some venomous keepers, besides the ones in it to be 'tough', are doing it for research purposes. Freehandling, however, cannot be justified in my opinion. As stated by BW, why risk it when you don't have to? I have been thinking for a good couple of hours, and have not been able to come up with one viable reason for freehandling. Maybe someone can enlighten me? I understand that freehandlers are doing it to themselves, putting themselves solely (unless of course others are near or they do not capture the snake in time and it gets loose) at risk; the fact of the matter is that we must respect others and their passion for venomous snakes. We all know that if someone were to get bitten and killed, and it got loose into the news, not only will it be extremely exaggerated upon but it will shame venomous keepers and ultimately end up with the banning of venomous species. Out of respect, and with no purpose for doing so, I do not think freehandling should be a common occurance in ANY keepers lifestyle. This of course has exceptions for fake and grabbing and other methods of the sort which I do not know enough about to reflect upon. Again, I am not a keeper of any venomous snakes so my post may be pointless, however I am really seeking a justified reason for freehandling.

[Mustangrde1]

They only reason I ever free handled a venomous snake and it wasnt smart but at the time had to be done was to grab a coral out of two kids hands who were playing croc hunter. At the time i saw them do it all i could think was grab it and get them out of harms way. I would have rather took the bite then seen two very young children take it. All that went through my mind was a child getting bit and possibly dieing so i reacted on instinct to protect a child. Not smart when i carry hooks in my truck but at the time i was only thinking about the kids. Dont know if thats a reson but its the only i could think of to freehandle.

[unBOAlievable]

I hate to admit it,
but that is a good reason Mustangrde1, and I believe we would all have done the same in that instance.

Wait a minute, my wife said that is considered freejerkin not freehandling.

[BWSmith]

Yeah, I don't consider that free handling. Unless you squatted next to them and played with it for 20 minutes LOL ;)

[Mustangrde1]

No Brian I did not but myself and one of the local officers had a very nice chat with their parents about letting the TV be a babysitter and them not paying attention to thier children.

As for the Coral it was released in a less populated area and hopfully is doing well,it wasnt in the best of shape after its experiance.

I wish we had a better Herp society around us that was more proactive in getting the community involved and did more to educate in the schools.

[BWSmith]

Great job bro! That is more than most people would do i think.

[SCReptiles]

BW, your female is 8 pounds? That is spectacular. Are you interested in selling her? I pulled a 4 pound male out of the swamp Sunday. I would like to attempt to breed them. If you have a dig pic of her, post it here or email it to me. I would like to see her. Oh, and I draw a clear distinction between venomous snake keepers who free handle and the religious snake handlers. Two very different approaches to it.