Starter Snake

[Mike177]

I have several snakes and i have been very interested in buying a venoumus snake. I have been thinking about buying a copperhead and I would Like your opinion on what is a good "starter" snakes for someone New to the world of keeping venoumus snakes

Thanks
.............................................Mike. .................................................. ..

[Zoe]

I don't know too much about hots, but I can tell you that copperheads AREN'T good starter hots. While they aren't fatal, their bites are very painful, and need to be immediately treated.

[Edwin]

You should read this post:

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10783

This question has been raised a few times already, and I think the general consensus (I use this term very loosely) is the mangrove snake, Boiga dendrophila.

[ETET]

Mike

As Edwin said, read the above post first, if you still need a hot, do some research and talk to people who keep them. For my opinion, I know most people recommend copper head, mangrove snake as "starter hot"; but remember they are still hots, treat them with great respect although they not usually fatal. Do lots of home work and you should know if they are good starter for you or not. Good luck!



ETET

[BWSmith]

I Have a albino burm with i love to death a ball python some corn snakes and i have a Veiled chameleon wich i will be breeding soon and lepord gecos but as alwas I NEED MORE!

I will stand up here and make a bold statement. This quote is from your "check in" post. In my opinion, you do not have the needed experience to keep a venomous species.

[Zoe]

Yes I agree... I have 7 snakes and some chameleons, and have had experience working with herps for years, but I still would not consider myself experienced enough to get a hot.
A burm, ball and some corns are nothing compared to a venomous snake. They are relatively calm species, nothing like many venomous species.

Zoe

[Mike177]

I totaly agree! they are very placid snakes with a gental disposition. And honistly i dont think i have enough experiance eather but i am looking to find a "Hot" snake that is right for me so i may start reserach on the anamal and accualy take a series of classes from a local herb sicioty on how to sucsesfuly own venoumus snakes. i am not like one of those kids who sees the crocodile hunter pick up a snake and say WOW if a had a leathel snake it would realy componsate for my small *****

......................................Mike........ .................................................. ..

[Mike177]

The word that was stared out was: richard, ****, wang, hotdog, pecker,

[Zoe]

It's good that you want to research it first! A hot is a big commitment (as is any snake).
However, how old are you? If you're under twenty, you'll want to wait for a few years before getting into hots, as I don't believe anyone under 25 should cosider owning one.

GL
Zoe

[Hamster of Borg]

What I was told before I got into hots... get yourself a wild caught Coachwhip, or wild caught Texas Rat Snake. Some kind of species that is fast, has attitude, and rarely calms in captivity. Work with it daily for a year, as if it was the hottest snake on the planet. Every time it escapes its cage, or every time you you get bit, put a Post-It on the cage glass that says "I, or someone who I share my home with could be dead right now." If after a year, you have even a single Post-It, you may want to reconsider. :)

Ham

[Samba]

Okay well I guess I'm gonna be the wild card here. While, in my opinion, I believe that Mike does not appear to have the maturity or the experience for a hot snake, I will say this: If he wants it bad enough he will get one. Only two of you, of all the posts, have answered his initial question which was something to the effect of: "What are good 'starter snakes' "(hot, of course) My personal opinion would be (from experience), Hog-Nosed Snakes. I believe that not only have they settled well in my experience but are also very attractive, captive bred (they come in many colors and morphs), are rear-fanged, and most would sooner play dead and stink up your house then waste venom. While a rear-fanged snake can just as easily invenomate as a front-fanged snake, there's "that much more room to spare" (as my Rescue buddy often says). Mike do the research, contact breeders of 'hots' and TAKE YOUR TIME. When you do pick a species you'd first like to keep, remember another thing: Depending on where you live, you may require a permit, special training and previous experience just to own one as a pet (legally). I suggest you take all these into consideration. I am in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM SUGGESTING that you go out and buy one now, or EVER if you do not research this subject first. I think Ham's idea above is a great one!

[Jeremy]

No offense to anyone but I have to disagree on owning a non-ven/rear fang(besides such sp as Twig Snakes, Keelbacks and Boomslangs which are hot but none are suitable starters at all!)first, before owning a hot. None of those snakes will prepare you for the real deal. The best first hot snake will always be someone elses, period. It takes awhile to learn how to properly munipulate a squirly copper or cotton on a hook, as an example and a newbi with no hands on experince or even worse, haveing not ever veiwed the teniques of a hook, will be wetting him/her self on the first bad scale day. Dont get me wrong, its not rocket science but its damn near if not more dangerous!!!!!!

My recomendation for anyone looking to venture into hot herp keeping is to find someone close who will let you observe them for awhile and then eventually let you even handle their animals. This is the only real way to do it safely. You would be suprised how many warm hearted herpers out there would be willing to sponser ya, sorta speak. They/I would much rather have someone come in and do it the right way rather then have someone get nailed or have somone else get nailed and screw up the laws for everyone else.

As for the intial question, well, it really depends on what your looking to work with. No matter what people say, copperheads make great first hots(provided you have taken my advise above), even cranky ones. Once youve learned how to properly handle, getting bit by a copper is realy isnt a worry unless you are restraining it and this is were that hand on experince under supervision kicks in.

If your looking into the other side of the scales, elapids, well, Aspidelaps can make great starter cobras and even good ol Naja kaouthia are rather easy to work with but one most really have a sound fodation in elapids, knowing every acpect of the pirticular sp before one is aquired. Though they may be clumsey compared to some of their kin( ie forest and Eygptian cobras) their bite are one of the worst there is and there may very well not be a second chance if you get tagged by one.

Do it right, research your arse off, find a respected hot herper to train ya and then do what you love. Just dont F up what I love in the process!!!!!!

My 2 pennies,
Jeremy

[Samba]

Jeremy,

I agree with you for the most part, but I think Ham's idea of getting a non-ven and handling it as though it was hot is a good idea. I still stand by my Hog-Nosed Snakes though!!! Hogs were my first hots, and I love them to no end. I really didn't get them because they were hot, but because they are absolutely adorable! After doing literally YEARS of research (I was afraid, I'm not gonna lie here), I actually started doing field removals here in New Mexico, (as an extension of Samba's Reptile Rescue Services). I eventually bought Hog-Nosed Snakes and found they have become excellent pets. I never, ever let my guard down and treat them with respect and caution. Ironically I have since removed wild Hogs (as well as Rattlers and other snakes, lizards, etc.) as a part of my services, and believe my experience with my pet Hogs helped a great deal. As for Mike, do the research and contact owners/breeders of hots for guidence and experience. Check your local laws to see what is required before you can obtain a permit to keep hots in your area. Good luck!

[Jeremy]

Hi Samba,
I agree with you in that if one treats a hognose as a hot, (i.e uses hooks on them etc etc)one can get some training on how to hook a snake but for most people, hognose are just to renouned for not being dangerous and they will not act the same around them. Personaly, I would free handle any hognose but I know them pretty well and know the effects of their venom even better(I have seen several bites from hognose and only one manifested into anything besides a tiny bump. most had no reactions at all). Also, as you know, they act nothing like a Crotalid (pitviper) when they get agitated. Every hog I have ever caught has done the same thing, flatten and hiss, twitch, crap on them selfs and then role over. Some havent done anything at all but look at you. Basicly what im getting at is, hognose are perdictble for the most part and even on the worst of days, one know they will not die or suffer injury if they get tagged. The same can not be said for even the most non leathal true venomous sp.

I still stick by my stance that the only good starter hot is someone elses. If one were to have a relationship set up with a serious hot herper and then practiced at home on their hognose though, that would be good training just so long as the person has the real deal to compare it too.

BTW, regarding New Mexico, were abouts are you from? I used to live on White Sands Missle Range many moons ago and have longed to return ever since. I hope South central/south west NM is still as prisitine as I remember it. There was no more awe inspireing place in this country to me, well, besides Coastal North Carolina. God I miss it there:-(

Welp, keep up the good work with the wild life rescues!

All the best,
Jeremy

[Gregg M]

There is no real good "starter" hot..... They can all do damage if you are bitten......... There is also no non ven that will prep you to keep a hot snake...... The keeping of these animals is nothing to take lightly and you must be fully prepared to deal with what might happen while keeping these animals...... It is no fun at all to have to force feed any young or adult venomous snake..... It does not happen often but when it does are you prepared to get the snake behind the head so you can stick a pinkie in its mouth???? Do you have a yet in the area willing to take care of your snake if it should need medical attension????? You need to learn the tricks of the trade from someone experianced in keeping venomous snakes..... There is no good starter venomous snake.....

[Hamster of Borg]

My eastern hognose would probably roll over and play dead if I brought out a hook to move her around. :)

I do like the idea of starter hots being "someone elses". Thats great for learning handling techniques and basic day-to-day cleaning/health procedures, but then you don't get the issue of making sure you have secure caging, a secure room, and putting other people who you may share your home with at risk. So few people think about that, or dismiss it with "It'll be locked in a cage, nobody else will have to deal with it." They are in the same residence, its their problem too, do they accept the risk as well? :)

Dunno... theres so much more to think about than "Whats a good starter snake?" Hell, I know people who started with monocle cobras. I myself started with mangroves and went right to massasaugas. The main thing to think about is are YOU ready for the responsibility and liability.

Ham

[Samba]

Jeremy,

Ha! New Mexico PRISTINE? Maybe in commercials! Just Kidding! I wanted to explain why I suggested Hogs for first timers, but I think you did it for me, without really getting my point! I suggested Hogs because they are placid, not that dangerous and very, very cute (not to mention captive-bred). I free handle mine as well.... now if Mike would like to learn how to use a hook, then yes, he should first experiment with a fiesty non-ven, then graduate to an average hot. I'm not gonna sit here like some people and say to Mike, "You have very little experience with snakes," (by his own admission) " Why don't you go out and play with hot snakes without first practicing (with snakes in general)." Come on guys, we're supposed to be giving good advice here, and before he can handle a hot, ne needs to learn how to handle a snake, and I'm not talking about big cuddly pythons, either. I still thinks Ham's idea is a good one, and that Mike should start there.

[AZHerper]

A Beginner Hot is always a touchy subject as mentioned before,please spend time around someone else who has one first.and learn from them and watching them handle theirs.I taught my wife we go herping every chance we get usually 2-3 nights a week and weekends.I taught her in the backyard with a set of 40" Midwest hooks on a adult Sidewinder.I think a Sidewinder is a excellent one to learn with,i have had many of them none have been overly aggressive and being that they are a smaller body snake their striking distance is less,with Rattlers i always give my self upto 1/2 of their quick estimated length,a;though some do 1/4 of length better safe than sorry.A Red Coachwhip(non venemous)but a very nasty snake isnt a good choice to learn with,they are nearly impossible to hook,they are extremly slender bodied,and very quick,when i find them i grab them,and look out!!!!! but im willing to take a non venemous bite for something i want.If you get hooks get the Midwest Gentle Giants they work alot better and distribute the pressure more,ive seen many people use the standard tongs and injure the snake.This may sound funny but back when i first got tongs i practiced picking up eggs with them to be gentle,and my hook i practiced with a 4 foot Gopher Snake.My first hot was a Pacific Northwest Rattlesnake,until i moved to AZ my first here was a Mojave(not a good beginner snake)and for a beginning hot stay away from Cobras,mambas,Death Adders.try to get something maybe native to where you live in the horrible case that you might get tagged hopefully the local hostpital will be a little more familiar with treating a Rattler bite.but back to good beginner,my friends that insist on their first hot i say go with a Sidewinder,i dont give them one because id feel responsible if they got it from me but ill take them out herping after they buy their own hook(that way i know they get one!!!)but a Hognose is a good choice to,it will teach you to be careful.or i have a couple Macklots Pythons that are just about hook snakes.they are the nastiest litle things i have almost.well besides Coachwhip

[Mike177]

ya i think i am going to go with the rat snake idea. i am probly going to get a nice agressive rat snake or other agressive non-venomus snake a work on my hook skills for a wile untill i get the real deal. but thanks for the help