View Full Version : Advice on Respiratory Infection
Neon Aurora
09-19-18, 12:49 PM
My yellow anaconda came down with a respiratory infection a while ago and I took him to the vet. I got a 3 week course of antibiotic injections and have been dutifully giving them every 3 days. I just gave the last one today.
But now I'm unsure how to know if it's really gone. The thing that made me take him to the vet in the first place was blowing snot bubbles out of his nose while he was eating. He also sounded kind of congested/whistle-y when we would get defensive and start hissing. I fed him a few days ago and watched closely. No more snot bubbles. But when I gave him his injection today, he still sounds a little whistle-y and possibly congested. I'm not really sure what is normal and what's not, because I never paid too close attention to what it sounded like when he was hissing before.
I'm not sure if I should go get more antibiotics from the vet... The problem is that I am leaving on a long-planned trip in less than two weeks. I have family taking care of him (and all my other reptiles, dogs, cats) but I don't know if I can ask them to give him injections. Neither are experienced handling snakes and he is hard to give injections to. He gets defensive quickly and needs to be held still or there is a risk of breaking the needle off inside of him. So I need to grab hold of his head and keep it while holding still the first 1/3 of his body. His head is very hard to keep hold of because he is an anaconda and has a very slender head. Nothing to hold against like on many other boa and python species. Then it is 13 pounds of muscle struggling to get his head back. Heck, just getting him out of his enclosure is hard. They help me with the injections because it is easier with two people (I have done a few by myself, but it is a pain), but I always was the one to get him out of his enclosure and get his head and body secured. Then one of them just gave him the injection and I would put him back. I'm afraid that they will not be able to control him and will get bitten or even lose him.
Dumerils88
10-24-18, 08:27 AM
Have you ever tried using f10 bacteria cleaner? It cleared up an impossible RI that my blood python had. It’s a cleaner used at vet offices that is safe for all animals. What you do is purchase a reptile fogger, and mix the f10 solution with the water u put in fogger. I took a plastic storage bin and put holes in lid so some of the fog can escape and let the fog fill the bin with your conda in it, the cleaner will kill the bacteria in their lungs, it does work. You can find articles on it on the web
Dumerils88
10-24-18, 08:33 AM
I forgot to add that this was after antibiotics didn’t clear the infection, they helped but he was so sick when I rescued him he probably only had a day or 2 to live, and hadn’t ate in months. I bought him from the dumb *** for $200 because I have a very soft spot for snakes, and I just had to try and save him. And save him I did! You can buy the f10 on Amazon
Have you ever tried using f10 bacteria cleaner? It cleared up an impossible RI that my blood python had. It’s a cleaner used at vet offices that is safe for all animals. What you do is purchase a reptile fogger, and mix the f10 solution with the water u put in fogger. I took a plastic storage bin and put holes in lid so some of the fog can escape and let the fog fill the bin with your conda in it, the cleaner will kill the bacteria in their lungs, it does work. You can find articles on it on the web
The above would do nothing if the infection were viral in nature.
Neon Aurora
10-24-18, 01:50 PM
Well it turned out okay. =) I went on my trip, came back, and pretty much sat there with the enclosure doors open just watching, listening, poking him to get him to move/hiss and I really think he is okay. Perhaps the leftover congestion was just residual inflammation and the infection was actually under control. Like when you get a cold and even though you are feeling much better after a few days, you still produce more mucous and have a stuffy nose. I probably spent a few hours over a couple of days just watching and listening and I didn't hear any of the congested breathing or whistling. He is eating well, very active, and seems good now.
Unfortunately, I think whatever it is may have been transmitted to my rosy boa. I'm kicking myself for not being more careful. I'm observing right now, but I heard her exhale a couple times yesterday which is unusual. I've never been able to hear her breathe before.
The above would do nothing if the infection were viral in nature.
Exactly...
Correlation does not imply causation.
Neon Aurora
10-24-18, 03:00 PM
I do believe the infection was bacterial. But IMO, systemic antiobiotics are going to be better than any aersolized disinfectant. I'm not sure I would be comfortable doing that anyways unless my vet said it was okay and effective.
I would have just taken him back to the vet if he wasn't better. =) I'm keeping a very close eye on him for any return of symptoms.
Neon Aurora
10-24-18, 08:20 PM
Well no wonder on the rosy boa. I don't think it came from my conda after all.
I really underestimated how these Animal Plastics enclosures hold moisture. There is not even a water bowl in my rosy's cage and humidity is still managin to be 60%. That's probably why she has an RI. Back to the vet, and then need to modify the cage to have more ventilation. =(
ClockwerkBonnet
10-24-18, 09:46 PM
Wow, I never realized that could happen! Best wishes, Aurora.
Neon Aurora
10-24-18, 09:51 PM
Wow, I never realized that could happen! Best wishes, Aurora.
Never realized what could happen?
Humidity does not cause RI. A pathogenic organism is the cause. Viral, bacterial, or fungal. None of which you can discern the cause simply by observation. Cultures are necessary if you are to treat the snake appropriately. Otherwise, it's a W.A.G. at best, and bad husbandry practices at worst.
Neon Aurora
10-25-18, 07:57 AM
Well, a lot of people say that it does, especially for rosy boas. There are plenty of opportunistic pathogens already present in the respiratory system that could cause an infection given the right conditions.
I've never had a vet want to do a culture on a basic respiratory infection in any species, reptiles or mammal. The first thing they always try is a round of broad-spectrum antibiotics. If that does not clear it up, a culture could be a good idea. You can claim bad practices if you like, but I'm following the advice of my veterinarian. =)
Well, a lot of people say that it does, especially for rosy boas. There are plenty of opportunistic pathogens already present in the respiratory system that could cause an infection given the right conditions.
I've never had a vet want to do a culture on a basic respiratory infection in any species, reptiles or mammal. The first thing they always try is a round of broad-spectrum antibiotics. If that does not clear it up, a culture could be a good idea. You can claim bad practices if you like, but I'm following the advice of my veterinarian. =)
A lot of people are wrong. I've heard that misting causes respiratory infections quite often as well...I can only imagine all the sick snakes in the wild after a rainfall.
A culture should always come before treatment unless circumstances are dire and emergency intervention is required while waiting for a result. Doing otherwise is like putting your pants on before your underwear. Using broad spectrum antibiotics incorrectly can create resistance. MDT is pretty experienced in the medical field, I would trust him over most vets any time, especially if you've only encountered ones that don't want to do a culture before treatment, but I can respect where you're coming from.
Neon Aurora
10-25-18, 10:46 AM
I'm not closed off to new ideas. I can admit to being wrong. So you think keeping a desert species at 60% humidity is not going to cause health problems?
I guess the reason I question the need for a culture is because I don't even do a culture on myself when a bacterial RI is suspected. I had pneumonia and got broad spectrum antibiotics, no culture. The only time a vet wanted to do a culture was on a friend's cat who had an infection that just would not clear.
I can request a culture, if that is really the standard. I just thought it was pretty standard to do antibiotics when RI was suspected. That is what I have heard most of the time, what vets have told me, and what I did for my conda who is healthy now.
Taking her to the vet later today.
Andy, you know I get my info from Google and Dr. Oz :D
(thanks for the kind words)
Neon, glad you're taking her to vet. Hopefully, they'll be clinically investigative and try to diagnose the illness. Keep us updated. We wish your animal all the best.
I'm not closed off to new ideas. I can admit to being wrong. So you think keeping a desert species at 60% humidity is not going to cause health problems?
I guess the reason I question the need for a culture is because I don't even do a culture on myself when a bacterial RI is suspected. I had pneumonia and got broad spectrum antibiotics, no culture. The only time a vet wanted to do a culture was on a friend's cat who had an infection that just would not clear.
I can request a culture, if that is really the standard. I just thought it was pretty standard to do antibiotics when RI was suspected. That is what I have heard most of the time, what vets have told me, and what I did for my conda who is healthy now.
Taking her to the vet later today.
It's good that you're open minded because that's how we all learn. I can understand your hesitation based on what you've been told and what you've experienced. Could you imagine though how much quicker, easier, and less expensive it would have been for your friend to treat their cat if a culture was done before treatment commenced? That's a great example of the "pants before underwear" statement that I made.
Is there a chance that your snake may be entering a shed cycle? Sometimes infrequent breathing noises that loosely resemble RI can occur before or during a shed cycle.
Andy, you know I get my info from Google and Dr. Oz :D
(thanks for the kind words)
Neon, glad you're taking her to vet. Hopefully, they'll be clinically investigative and try to diagnose the illness. Keep us updated. We wish your animal all the best.
Ha! Before I became a licensed optician, I used to be a licensed MLT and worked in the microbiology department and I dealt a lot with differential diagnosis techniques in order to aid MD's to prescribe correct treatment. Just calling it as I see it. ;)
Neon Aurora
10-25-18, 01:29 PM
Well in the case of the cat, she had a pseudomonas infection that was untreatable anyways. But I see your point.
I'll ask my vet today about doing a culture. It would probably help anyways, because if humidity does not cause RIs than the rosy must have got it from my conda. If I culture this one, I'll know what it is. If it's not bacterial, then I'll probably need my conda treated again.
She is probably due for a shed, but I don't think that's it. It sounds and feels like congestion. I took her out yesterday to double check and I felt her exhale when I heard it. It sounded and felt to my hand really stuffed up and like she had to breathe forcefully to push the air through. But the culture will tell for sure.
Oh, could someone answer my other question? Will keeping a desert species at 60% humidity cause health problems?
Neon Aurora
10-26-18, 08:26 AM
Culture done. =) Hopefully it's worth it, because it was not cheap. Probably won't have results until next week, so for now I am just keeping her warm and dry.
Culture done. =) Hopefully it's worth it, because it was not cheap. Probably won't have results until next week, so for now I am just keeping her warm and dry.
As a well known reptile vet (Dr. Doug Mader) once said:
Good medicine is not cheap, and cheap medicine is not good.
You're doing the right thing. Let us know how your snake does!
Neon Aurora
10-26-18, 12:06 PM
I will definitely keep everyone updated.
She was a bit of stinker at the vet. She has this strange habit of activating her feeding response when her head comes into contact with bare skin. I don't think they believed me when I told them and one of the techs got latched onto right away, haha. I only handle her with thin gloves and long sleeves because even a thin layer of clothing is enough to convince her that my arms and hands are not food...
chairman
10-26-18, 07:18 PM
On the F10 fogging approach, that is an old school treatment for RIs. The only thing that "treatment" demonstrates is that F10 is a very safe cleanser.
You've had solid advice from people who know what they're talking about in terms of the necessity of proper diagnosis and genuine medical treatment, I thought I'd just chime in on the F10 as a reliable/safe cleaner bit.
Neon Aurora
10-27-18, 09:02 AM
I think if I were to do any inhaled treatment, it would be nebulized antiobiotics from the vet. But my vet told me that nebulized antibioitcs is not very effective because reptiles tend to wall off bacterial infections. But we will see what the right course is when the culture comes back!
In the meantime, I've managed to get her humidity down to 45% ish. Whether or not that causes respiratory infections, 45% is a more appropriate level for this species.
N.A., look up the theory of "spontaneous generation". That is essentially what you're looking at to ascribe humidity as the *cause* of RI.
To say that inappropriate husbandry (wrong temps/humidity/etc) may favor the growth of pathogenic organisms (if present) would be appropriate. The snake's own immune system is designed to function fairly well in environments they are native to. If I tried to keep my carpet pythons at the same temp as my indigo snakes, I am altering their ability to most effectively resist infection.
Just like you, you aren't gonna get the flu just from being in the cold rain. Someone's gotta give it to you first.
Neon Aurora
10-27-18, 12:44 PM
Well, that's not really ever what I thought... There are plenty of normal pathogens already present in the respiratory system that can proliferate and cause an infection given the right conditions. Personally, I don't see how humidity is not a contributing factor. People who had tuberculosis often moved to drier climates.
I have a degree in biology, so I'm really not clueless here and definitely do not think spontaneous generation is a thing.
I don't see how humidity is not a contributing factor.
We can agree on this.
ClockwerkBonnet
10-27-18, 06:36 PM
As a well known reptile vet (Dr. Doug Mader) once said:
Good medicine is not cheap, and cheap medicine is not good.
You're doing the right thing. Let us know how your snake does!
Oh my word, I've heard of Doug Mader! In fact, I used to read some articles from him on magazines. :)
Neon Aurora
10-31-18, 06:31 PM
Well, culture came back negative... Vet is calling me back tomorrow for a quote on doing a trachea wash and another culture. That is kind of disappointing.
NA....culture negative for bacteria? Or did vet do fungal and viral cultures too? Tracheal aspirate is best source (lower respiratory tract)... did they just swab the glottis first go around?
Sorry your answer is delayed :/
Neon Aurora
10-31-18, 10:16 PM
It's just a bacterial culture for now, and nothing grew. I should have just started with the trachea wash. Kicking myself. Yes, the first was just a glottis swab.
Neon Aurora
11-01-18, 09:42 AM
Well I got the trachea wash and culture scheduled. I couldn't get an appointment until next week, though.
hey... hopefully, at the end of the day, it may just be viral. With conservative treatment (temp bump, hydrated, etc), the snake's own immune system will have done the job before your appt.
Neon Aurora
11-01-18, 11:34 AM
That would be nice... Provided her immune system is able to boot the virus. Might actually make sense, too, as I believe a viral infection would be easier to transmit across snakes than a bacterial infection and it seems awfully coincidental to get two sick snakes within a few weeks of each other without it being something transmissible. Might also explain why my 'conda's symptoms weren't gone by the end of the course of antibiotics but were gone a few weeks later. So perhaps nothing growing on the culture could have been a good thing and was indicative that it's not a bacterial infection at all.
I guess the question would be how did a snake virus get into my crew? I didn't get any new additions before this started.
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