BRB Losing Scales? [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

bigsnakegirl785

09-19-16, 07:39 PM

I'm posting this outside of Morzan and Homura's thread for maximum attention.

Ok I'm kinda freaking out about Morzan now....I took him out of his tub a few minutes ago to weigh him, and remove a poop and urate he dropped and saw this....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8138/29719731431_8ac7edd152_b.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8545/29689607882_ec22d0590c_b.jpg

He appears well-hydrated, he has no bent scales, no sticky skin, his poop and urates look normal, and the urates are nice and big...his bedding was just dampened and there's condensation. I'm not currently using hygrometers with my rainbows because they not accurate above 80-85% but I could certainly get one just for him if that's most likely this issue...

Here's his poop and urates, they appear relatively fresh.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8449/29689606862_a152a79cec_b.jpg

Just in case I dampened his bedding further and heavily sprayed down his tub with my pump sprayer.

I've heard of snakes losing their scales and their skin ripping when they're not getting enough nutrition and I'm truly hoping that's not what's going on here...

Any help from keepers experienced with babies with regurge issues? Should I step him up to 4 gram fuzzies, go ahead and feed him every 5 days? Is there something else that could be causing this? Is this something I should get him to the vet for or wait and see if it's a hydration issue?

REM955

09-19-16, 07:56 PM

Looks similar to this case.
Boas-Rainbow - Patches of abnormal scales pre and post-shed please advise (http://www.repticzone.com/forums/Boas-Rainbow/messages/2285423.html)
Another link on the site.
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/epicrates/90407-brb-scale-rot.html
Best of luck.

bigsnakegirl785

09-19-16, 08:16 PM

It's definitely not like that first link, he shed a couple weeks ago, and the scales are flaky-looking in person. Which may just be the rainbow sheen because they don't look flaky in the pictures. In the photos it looks like all color has drained away.

I don't think it's scale rot either, it's on his side and there's no redness or blisters, and although I keep his bedding damp it's not wet and is allowed to dry out in cycles. If anybody else thinks that it could be fungal I could certainly get a test done.

I just don't want to take him to the vet unnecessarily because of his weakness, I don't want to risk his life by overstressing him unless it's absolutely necessary.

Minkness

09-19-16, 08:24 PM

Could just be that the scales were weak and came off with his shed? I dunno....seems odd.

Is this guy from the same breeder where you got the one that mysteriously died?

bigsnakegirl785

09-19-16, 08:37 PM

Could just be that the scales were weak and came off with his shed? I dunno....seems odd.

Is this guy from the same breeder where you got the one that mysteriously died?

Except he shed almost 3 weeks ago, and they weren't like this a couple days ago when I checked on him. His shed was a whole piece without any holes.

Yes, all my rainbows have been from the same source. My hypo and normal are perfectly healthy but I'm starting to wonder if maybe there's a problem with the Picasso line...the one that died was Morzan's sister. Then again, I've seen healthy Picasso stripes, but only my two Picasso stripes have given me problems outside the norm out of all of my snakes, not just BRBs.

Minkness

09-19-16, 08:42 PM

Could just be that breeder's picasso line? I dunno...I think he should go to a vet and have a swab done. Could be anything. Fungal, bacterial, or just part of who is? (A natual scale weakness).

So sorry you are having issues with these beautiful guys. =(

bigsnakegirl785

09-19-16, 08:59 PM

Before I make any decisions to take him to the vet, I'll wait on some experienced breeders. Cliff/Snakesitter is the only one I know of here, so I'll wait for his verdict on this thread, and see if anybody else thinks that could be the case.

I am very hesitant to take him to the vet without some concrete opinions because of his condition. I do not want to risk a vet visit pushing him over the edge. If he was a normal BRB in generally good condition that would be one thing, but he isn't. Of course, my natural response is to consult a vet, but vet visits are stressful, and he is most likely weak from having to eat significantly small meals for the 14 months of his life thus far.

RAD House

09-19-16, 09:27 PM

bigsnakegirl785

09-19-16, 09:56 PM

Do you have a reptile vet you trust? Maybe see if they will do a phone consult if you email over some pictures? The only time I have heard of scales sloughing like this someone had applied mineral oil to the snake. Any chance she came in contact with something?

I only have one vet in town, and he isn't a reptile specialist. He can do basic stuff, but nothing major. I think this would be out of his league. There is another one nearby but there's mixed reviews on Yellow Pages and their FB page.

From the photos, they don't appear to be sloughing off. I could take him out to get a good look at him again in person, but they appear to have just lost their color, not been sloughed off.

No, there's no way he came into contact with something. I don't use any chemicals in my house outside of soap, detergents, and bleach. I do sometimes use bleach to clean really gross stuff, but I've never used bleach on anything in Morzan's tub. I prefer to use soap when possible.

I have also not really been handling him all that much lately, I usually just open his tub and look in, so nothing from off my hands.

Minkness

09-19-16, 10:27 PM

It's hard for me to see the photos. Probably because I'm only wver on my phone. But if they are just discolored. Maybe that's just his juvie pattern/colors?

Als9, forgive for not being up to date on him, but why is he feeding on smaller prey than he should be?

bigsnakegirl785

09-19-16, 10:36 PM

I went back through my records to figure out how many bedding changes he's had since getting off moss and it's been 3 bedding changes in the past 5 months. Surely that's not so bad that it caused an infection? :/

I got him out and got a closer look at them and they do appear a little hardened and some are thickened. A few are brownish looking. I may call the non-specialist and see if we can get a swab, I'm just so worried about overstressing him.

Also, Minkness, he has some sort of condition that appears congenital that causes him to regurge normal-sized meals. He is at the length and roughly the weight that if he had full girth he could easily take hopper mice. I am guessing 4 or 5 gram fuzzies to be his max. This has caused him to be quite stunted in growth. He's 14 months old but even lighter than Sanji was at 6 months. He keeps down small fuzzies just fine, just can't take anything larger.

bigsnakegirl785

09-19-16, 10:38 PM

If I lose him, too, this is likely the last Picasso stripe or abberant morph BRB I will purchase. Again, my hypo and normal are in perfect health, so I'm not steered off rainbows completely.

bigsnakegirl785

09-19-16, 11:19 PM

I've been trying to find 24 hour emergency vets but they're all out on the other end of the state....even if time wasn't a factor and the stress from the drive wasn't a huge possibility there's a major gas shortage here so I'm not sure if we'd be able to make it out there. :/ Hopefully it's not too major and a day or too won't be too much, as the vet office open the latest around here closes at midnight. That was an hour ago. I know the non-specialist could at least get the swab done, and anything beyond that he could get me in touch with other vets.

JellyBean

09-19-16, 11:41 PM

Im so sorry you are going through this :hmm:
He has been a handful, hasn't he? :( Poor little guy.

I know what it's like to do anything for our babies, and I hope for the best. ❤️ Good luck Morzan

marvelfreak

09-20-16, 09:45 AM

Question how does he look now during the day?

bigsnakegirl785

09-20-16, 10:55 AM

macandchz

09-20-16, 11:28 AM

big snake girl, what state are you in? maybe someone around you will know of a good reptile vet. if you are close to Pa. i can recommend Leia Goodell in the south hills of pittsburgh. phone is:412-831-9500. i sure hope everything goes ok for him.

Snakesitter

09-20-16, 02:07 PM

Interesting. The picts are hard to see though – does your camera have a “macro” or closeup setting you can try with?

Are you sure the scale are *gone* rather than just discolored? Ot, maybe ust have a film over them? Normally, scale loss only happens as a result of a bad shed, a local infection, or an injury.
Some rainbow babies just never seem to develop good digestive systems. I have one from 2014 and one from 2015 at home right now.

Suggestion: instead of a vet visit, see if a vet will let you swab it yourself and then send it out for you. They may have to send you a sterile swab, or tell you where to get one…but this will be far less stressful for him. After you take the sample, give him a betadine bath. First let him soak in clear water for 15 minutes in case he wants to drink, then switch to a dilute betadine mixture (roughly the color of tea). If it’s some type of fungus or bacteria that should knock it back. Also change his substrate/disinfect so he does not re-expose himself.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

marvelfreak

09-20-16, 02:10 PM

He looks about the same. His scales aren't worse or better and nothing else has popped up. Everything looks clear and as healthy as can be on a snake like him. No sign of discoloration or abnormal wrinkliness on his belly or chin. Still alert but was sleeping.
The reason i ask is because BRB as they get older will whitewash at nights.

The more i look at the pictures it looks like dry scales. Have you try upping the humidity?

Andy_G

09-20-16, 03:09 PM

It looks like the combination of dry scales coupled with the snake at some point scraping and superficially injuring it's side along a rough edge of some kind...?

bigsnakegirl785

09-20-16, 05:27 PM

Thank you Cliff for the suggestion that would make me feel tons better. I have already given him fresh bedding. Still the same cypress mulch/EcoEarth mix just new bedding. Is betadine found in stores like Wal-Mart?

No, the camera doesn't have a macro setting it's a DSLR so all I can do is zoom in and focus. The lens was opened all the way and I was as close as I could get so that the camera would still focus.

Also marvelfreak he is definitely not whitewalling I am well aware of what that looks like, I have two others. I have yet to see Morzan white wall, ever, though.

Andy_G he doesn't appear dehydrated the rest of his skin is normal without any bent skin, and as you can tell by the feces/urate photo he's not showing signs of dehydration there either. He's never had a bad shed. Honestly the only thing I can guess is it's a fungal infection and after losing Guin to septicemia I'm scared to death I'll be looking forward to that with him. On my day off I'm calling my local vet to ask him about getting my own sample and sending it in. I hope all it is right now is a fungal infection.

bigsnakegirl785

09-20-16, 05:32 PM

I can try getting another photo when I get home, but in person it doesn't look like dry scales. My bp had bad sheds for 5 years so I'm fairly familiar with how that appears. Some of the scales are thickened and hardened, some are brownish. It's hard to tell if the pigment I'm seeing is because his scales are clear and I'm seeing his skin or if there's still some pigment left in the scales, but they're mostly clear where it isn't turning brown. His belly remains clear no spotting or redness, vent is normal, chin and mouth is normal.

Andy_G

09-20-16, 05:41 PM

I figured as much...was kind of just guessing. Hope you find out what you need to from the vet.

Snakesitter

09-20-16, 09:41 PM

You are most welcome. ;-)

Wal-Mart should have it -- I know I found mine at Rite Aid.

Good luck, and please keep us posted!

Snakesitter

09-20-16, 09:42 PM

You are most welcome. ;-)

Wal-Mart should have it -- I know I found mine at Rite Aid.

Good luck, and please keep us posted!

bigsnakegirl785

09-21-16, 01:44 AM

Ok I got those new photos I promised....he's so absolutely tiny in person it's hard to make anything out. Looking at these photos straight off the camera, it doesn't look like an infection. It does look more like dry scales except they're mostly fully formed, mostly neat, and not shriveled at all. The only thing is they look...clear. The bits where I thought it was discoloration from an infection actually look to be pigmentation in these photos. This is all so weird.

There are a couple messed up scales to the far right of the affected area but that's about it.

Is it possible to just get random dry scales despite high humidity? I mean, he looks perfectly hydrated in every other aspect of his body but...

I work tomorrow so I won't have a chance to call the vet, but I'll keep an eye on him and at least get a consultation over the phone to see about a fungal test but I'm starting to wonder if that's what that is now.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8307/29715740702_9f16deb308_h.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8070/29745961021_3227e5f671_h.jpg

Snakesitter

09-21-16, 01:59 PM

It does look like possible fungal growth to me. If so, those are usually very treatable when caught early as you did.

bigsnakegirl785

09-21-16, 05:31 PM

I'll call the vet tomorrow and see what he thinks on how to handle it; I get the sample turn it it, he does a physical, etc.

Even with the weakened state he's in because of his regurge issues, you don't think it will turn septic? I'm half thinking this will just away with his next shed, half thinking it's a fungal infection, but skin infections can easily turn to septicemia from what I've read...and he seems rather predisposed to it considering.

Albert Clark

09-21-16, 07:18 PM

bigsnakegirl785

09-21-16, 07:32 PM

Hey bsg, even though it will stress him out the vet is the definitive answer for a diagnosis. I agree with Cliff to go with the diluted betadine in the interim. Skin infections only make a animal septic if it goes untreated for extended periods. You don't fall into that category. Actually septicemia will present as a red dotted rash and mostly on the ventral scales. Worse case scenario is the brb will need antibiotic or anti fungal injections if it's determined to warrant that. I hope that's not the case and he has a speedy recovery from something that isn't serious.

That is generally true, but I lost a rainbow boa last winter to septicemia and she had zero symptoms. The only things that alerted me that she could be ill were a small regurge and half-digested feces. I figured it was odd but didn't set off any alarms at the time (I know better now). 18 days after eating her 3rd meal with me, she died. I had her maybe 2 months. I think the bacteria found was salmonella, if that makes any difference. Generally it appears Psuedomonas aeruginosa and the ilk cause septicemia from what I've been reading. She had no weird bumps, no patchiness, no swollenness, nothing. I checked on her one morning to find she looked a-ok and when I got off work she was dead.

I'm going to take Cliff's advice and get the sample myself unless the vet thinks he really needs to be seen. Again, I want to stress he isn't a perfectly healthy BRB aside from the possible skin infection, and I don't want the vet visit to be the last straw if the test ends up negative. I only want to take him if it's 100% necessary.

bigsnakegirl785

09-22-16, 02:45 PM

So I posted this situation on FB hoping to hit a wider audience of experienced keepers for his scale issues, but other than Dave, I've had two people comment and both were giving me advise on changing his feeding to prey items I know he can't keep down. So I'll just stick to this thread. lol I assume babies with regurge issues aren't a common thing overall otherwise they would realize that Morzan isn't 50 grams at 14 months for no reason. It's also so weird to me these two so adamantly pushing me to switch him to rats when mice are more nutritious at this stage, he's just eating abnormally small ones, even with the fact aside he couldn't get a rat pink down.

I'm also currently calling around for a vet, the one I had in mind wasn't in so they've referred me to other vets.

Snakesitter

09-22-16, 07:58 PM

Facebook is terrible for deeper discussions. ;-)

bigsnakegirl785

09-29-16, 03:29 AM

I wasn't able to get ahold of a vet last week as everyone was out, so I went ahead and fed him and was going to give him time to digest and try to call around again later today but I went into the snake room yesterday and smelled something horrid. He regurged again, and is starting a shed cycle, which is probably why he regurged. It's been like 6 days (today would have been 7), so I thought he'd keep it down. I did get the Betadine, so at this point I'm just going to wait for him to shed and see what happens.

Albert Clark

09-29-16, 05:51 AM

Man, sorry to hear this. Will you consider a fecal and the L.b.acidophilus to start as well?

bigsnakegirl785

09-29-16, 02:32 PM

Man, sorry to hear this. Will you consider a fecal and the L.b.acidophilus to start as well?

I can't get a fecal until he keeps another meal down, and idk what L.b.acidophilus is. If his scales are still weird after he sheds, I am getting a fungal test done. I just don't want to bother him in shed because I've torn skin before.

I'm still not so sure a fecal is all that relevant, his condition is probably physical, but if the vet thinks it should be done I can do that.

Albert Clark

09-29-16, 03:36 PM

Gotcha. L.b.acidophilus is the main ingredient in bene bac, nutri bac, and the like. Basically a "good bacteria" digestive conditioner.

bigsnakegirl785

09-29-16, 03:44 PM

Gotcha. L.b.acidophilus is the main ingredient in bene bac, nutri bac, and the like. Basically a "good bacteria" digestive conditioner.

Ah. Yeah he's gotten it with every meal but two that he refused to take with it. His last meal had NutriBAC on it. He's been getting it for months, and I've addressed this several times in his main thread, I keep being advised this when I've been giving it to him from the beginning. lol

Snakesitter

10-03-16, 02:03 PM

Sorry to hear about the new regurg. :-( Have you asked the breeder if any of his littermates have had similar issues?

bigsnakegirl785

10-03-16, 02:47 PM

Sorry to hear about the new regurg. :-( Have you asked the breeder if any of his littermates have had similar issues?

No but I can. I know he has other adult animals with the same issue, but the ones I see aren't currently being used for breeding.

So far Morzan still appears healthy, hiding away because of his shed cycle, but doesn't seem lethargic and is responsive. He was deep in blue the other day so hopefully he'll shed by this weekend. I'll decide where to go from there.

I'll give him another 3 gram fuzzy after he sheds.

Aaron_S

10-03-16, 04:18 PM

Facebook is terrible for deeper discussions. ;-)

The internet as a whole in fact....

Snakesitter

10-04-16, 02:04 PM

Fingers crossed!

bigsnakegirl785

10-04-16, 02:52 PM

His breeder says none of his other siblings have regurge issues, at least that he hasn't had any reported from the other owners, and the 3 he has are doing fine.

Still waiting on him to shed so I'll update when that happens.

bigsnakegirl785

10-05-16, 02:15 AM

Well, good news is he shed today and his scales are looking almost completely normal! They do still have a bit of an odd look to them, but it's unclear atm if that's because they're still returning to normal after his shed, or if it's a slight bit of scarring. Either way, I see no reason to continue treating for a fungal infection and his scales should be 100% after his next shed. Every bit of color has returned, there's no longer any discoloration, and although the scales are a tad misshapen it's nothing major.

My main worry is how skinny he is, 3 gram fuzzies just don't cut it but I can't start him on 4 grams until he keeps some meals down...so for the time being I think I'll feed him 3 gram fuzzies every 5-6 days. When he next sheds, I'll give him another 4 gram fuzzy and try to time his meals so that he either gets a 3 gram fuzzy the week before his shed, or he skips that last meal. He sheds every month pretty much on the dot.

Snakesitter

10-05-16, 02:28 PM

Great news from the breeder, and that sounds like a solid plan. Good luck!

bigsnakegirl785

10-07-16, 09:39 PM

Well he regurged again, so gonna have to start the clock over...he'll be getting either a 2 gram fuzzy/pinky or a 3 gram fuzzy on the 21st if he makes it. I'm asking the breeder what he thinks the prognosis is and trying again to get ahold of the more experienced vet and see if he thinks this is something he can handle.

If his breeder doesn't think the prognosis is good and the vet seems full of it or doesn't have the experience, I may have to elect to euthanize him. I have no experience with this sort of thing so I don't know if he's beyond saving yet or not.

I took him out when I saw the regurge to give him a once-over to make sure nothing else popped up physically, and he looks fine. His scales aren't misshapen at all any more, not inflammation, no weird bumps, no mucus or anything. His belly is still gaunt but that's to be expected. I flipped him over and he was very slow to lifting his head up and never attempted to roll back onto his belly. He crawled away just fine once I set him back in his tub, but I found him curled tightly under his hide over his heat tape (above the the bedding). Temp gun shows all temps are still in order and the thermostat is set to 80F for 78-80F surface temps under the bedding and ambients in the mid-70's.

Albert Clark

10-07-16, 09:52 PM

Man! Just when things seemed to be on track. Well, I hope you can get to the bottom of this soon. I would rethink the euthanization until I get info from the exotic vet. That's just me though.

bigsnakegirl785

10-07-16, 10:01 PM

Yeah definitely gonna wait on the vet, and at least see if he's competent and confident enough to handle this. Really depends on what both say. I'll call him on my lunch break Monday and maybe I'll get ahold of him this time. Last time I called at that hour he was out, but I can call again Tues before work if that doesn't work.

Albert Clark

10-08-16, 04:19 AM

Hopefully this will be a distant memory soon! Good luck. My fingers are crossed for Morzan and you.

RAD House

10-08-16, 08:05 PM

How long does he keep the meal down before he regurgitates? You probably already said this, but I don't feel like rereading the whole post.

SnoopySnake

10-08-16, 08:10 PM

Is there any particular reason the temp is that low? I thought I recall seeing Dave say he keeps his hot spot closer to 82, just wondering if maybe it'd help him keep meals down? Although 78-80 still would be warm enough to digest, just curious if maybe the snake isn't agreeing with it for some reason......just a thought really...not sure if that's something that's been mentioned or thought of before but maybe worth talking to others about?

bigsnakegirl785

10-08-16, 10:28 PM

He usually regurges within 4 days, about 2-3 days after eating.

78F is when the heat tape is turned off (Hydrofarms have a 2 or 3 degree differential that you cannot change), and 81F is the hot spot temperature that I aim for, so that is where the heat tape maxes out at. With heating elements like RHPs and CHEs, the temps continue to rise for a few more degrees after being shut off, so the difference in temperatures would be even greater, but that doesn't seem the case with heat tape.

I'm going to raise his heat tape to 85F and see that helps, but I cannot offer any more food until the 21st. Ambients in the room are usually in the low to mid-80's but the moist bedding lowers the temps in his tub by a couple degrees. The temps are dropping at night now that the nights are cold, but once it gets much colder I'll be kicking up the strength of the heater and it will warm back up. Sanji and Morzan are by the window, so they'll still be colder than the rest of the collection, though.

Dave Colling keeps his babies' hot spot at 78-79F and his adults up to 82F or 83F iirc. (Not sure if that's the Dave you're referring to.)

RAD House

10-08-16, 10:48 PM

I was going to suggest you raise the temps as well. It can help jumpstart his immune system if he is sick regardless of feeding. I have a ball python that seems to regurg with a hotspot any less than about 92, even though below that is well with in the suggested range. With elevated temps he does great, hopefully this will help.

bigsnakegirl785

10-08-16, 11:11 PM

I did originally have his set to 83F like Sanji's, but I thought it was causing his regurges so I set it lower. I can raise it again, but a little higher and see if it helps. I will offer him another fuzzy on the 21st and see if he keeps the next few meals down. It will be rather close to his next shed cycle but maybe the higher heat will help him out or something....

In the meantime I'm going to call the vet's office again and see if it's worthwhile to take him out there. I'm less worried about skin infections, RIs, that sort of thing, since treatments are pretty universal but complicated issues like this I'm a lot less willing to trust a vet if they don't seem fairly experienced. Seen too many stories of vets suggesting people to do things at the cost of the snake's life, that were obviously dangerous to the experienced keeper. If he continues to be difficult to get ahold of, or won't talk with me over the phone, or something else is off, I'm not going to take him in.

I didn't bother him, but went into the snake room a few minutes ago and he was out and about, crawling around his tub.

Snakesitter

10-13-16, 02:36 PM

I agree with raising the temps a bit -- n higher than 82F, though.

The lack of righting himself does worry me a bit. Hopefully he was just being lazy!

bigsnakegirl785

10-13-16, 09:34 PM

I agree with raising the temps a bit -- n higher than 82F, though.

The lack of righting himself does worry me a bit. Hopefully he was just being lazy!

Yup put it up to 85F.

It worried me too, but I'm 99.99% sure he just didn't have the strength. No sign of being uncoordinated or lack of muscle control, just weakness. He's crawling around at night no problem.

Snakesitter

10-14-16, 07:00 PM

85F is a bit high...I'd lower a bit (the "o" was missing from "no" above). Otherwise sounds good.

bigsnakegirl785

10-14-16, 10:10 PM

85F is a bit high...I'd lower a bit (the "o" was missing from "no" above). Otherwise sounds good.

Ah ok. lol Well his ambients are the same temp since they're room temp, just upped his hot spot, shouldn't affect his ambients. It's just a small part of his tub off to one side, maybe 1/3 at most so he could easily escape the 85F area. Afaik 85F is fine so long as they have a way to get away from it. He still seems to use the hot spot like normal, too.

I can lower it I'd just like to see if a slightly warmer than average hot spot helps him first.

bigsnakegirl785

10-22-16, 12:39 AM

He ate a 3 gram fuzzy earlier, now we wait.

dave himself

10-22-16, 02:07 AM

Fingers crossed for you he keeps it down poor wee guy :(

bigsnakegirl785

10-24-16, 10:54 PM

Day 4 and no regurge yet! We're almost in the safe zone! Usually he doesn't regurge on Day 6-7 so hopefully he continues doing well here. Last I checked on him, his bulge was already starting to dissipate.

I've had to roll up a blanket underneath the window to block off the bottom of the plastic we put over it because cold air was coming out and making him and Sanji too cold, but it's done the trick!

We also got a new space heater for that room, a quartz heater, and it heats quite well without making the whole room feel like a sauna in certain pockets. It even heats the corners quite well, whereas with the other one we'd have pockets where it was in the low 70's while the rest of the room was 85-88F.

Snakesitter

10-26-16, 09:09 PM

Good news! :-)

RAD House

10-26-16, 09:21 PM

I am pulling for the little guy.

bigsnakegirl785

10-26-16, 09:56 PM

Good news! He kept it down and defecated today, just a few hours short of 7 days.

Bad news....he weighed in at 44 grams today. That's 20% of his body weight lost. At this point, he's eating, I'm just going to have to try to get him on larger prey ASAP. But unless he starts picking weight back up I'm afraid this may be the end of the line for him...the back half of his belly is so concave, and he's so skinny. If he continues to lose weight like this I don't want to make him suffer unnecessarily. I'm so upset about all of this. But other than keeping him eating I literally don't know what else to do. None of the vets around here are experienced enough to help with him and I'm not wasting money just make him suffer if nothing works.

dannybgoode

10-26-16, 10:29 PM

Fingers crossed for you bsg. You're doing all you can. Hopefully he'll keep a few down in a row and start getting some weight on. Shame be struggles so much to eat wolsey being anywhere around shed time as this causes forced breaks in the feeding (not always a bad thing of course in this case undesirable).

I'm sure you have thought of this but just in case-do you have any good zoos round your area who may have access to specialist vets etc?

bigsnakegirl785

10-26-16, 10:42 PM

Yeah his next shed is due in a week and a half, so hopefully he's got time to digest this next meal before that happens. He usually poops within a week.

No zoos anywhere in the state I know of. If I lived in Raleigh, there is an extensive exotic vet system there and they could help me but it's a 4 hour drive and the drive there might be too much for him. I think the vet I usually use has ties to the vets out there but I'm not sure how much they could help without actually seeing him. I can get ahold of him again after the weekend and see what he thinks. He doesn't feel comfortable with it himself, and I never could get ahold of the other vet in town.

Albert Clark

10-27-16, 05:54 AM

Wow, it's great that he is holding down his meal! Did you consider supplementing his recovery with tube feedings and using a critical care formula? The liquid nutrition would be easier on his gastrointestinal system. Also the online vets that Reptile Magazine offers may prove helpful. Congrats on getting him on the road to recovery.

bigsnakegirl785

10-27-16, 06:25 PM

I did but I had someone(s?) tell me it wouldn't be effective with boas because one of the nutrient levels were too high or something...I know boas have much more delicate systems than pythons. Like I said, I'll see what the vet thinks. Whether I should just continue what I'm doing, add supplements, or whatever.

bigsnakegirl785

11-04-16, 12:06 AM

Well Morzan ate 8 days ago today, and there's no sign of a bulge anywhere in his body. I've dug around in his bedding multiple times and haven't found any feces, just a few urates. So, either he's holding onto it and used so much of it it isn't leaving a bulge, or I've somehow missed it in his bedding. Either way, I don't think there's a danger of him regurging any time soon. He's been curling up in a hide rather than exploring lately, so hopefully that means he'll be shedding soon. I plan on changing his bedding again today or tomorrow as well, just to make sure his bedding stays nice and clean.

bigsnakegirl785

11-09-16, 09:58 PM

Well Morzan never did poop - I've dug through the bedding many times and by now it would be growing mold. He also does not appear to be going into a shed cycle, so I do not feel comfortable holding off on feeding him any longer. I fed him a 4 gram fuzzy this morning, about 2 weeks after his last meal. Good news - he hasn't lost a single gram, whereas last time he went 2 weeks he lost 7-8 grams in weight. He hasn't gained any, either, though. Another interesting thing I noticed is that the mouse hardly left a bulge at all despite being an average-sized 4 gram fuzzy. Usually even 2 gram fuzzies leave a huge bulge right after he eats. He definitely ate it, the mouse is nowhere to be found and the bulge is there, just smaller than usual.

Oh - also. I did the flip test with him again (the 3rd time thus far if I've been counting right), and he actually almost managed to flip all the way onto his belly! I got too excited and set him in the bucket to do his bedding, but I'm sure he would have succeeded if I had waited. I'm hoping that means he gaining some strength. :)

SnoopySnake

11-09-16, 10:44 PM

bigsnakegirl785

11-09-16, 10:54 PM

Awesome news!! I hope he comes around for you! Maybe there just wasn't much for himto poop out so he's holding onto it for next time? Lol no idea. I'm glad he seems to be doing ok. Hope he keeps this meal down for you.

I'm thinking he probably used virtually all of the nutrients in that mouse, and he either will have a minuscule poop later (which will probably be bigger with this second mouse in his system), or he's just holding onto it like you said.

I am kind of interested in why the mouse left a small bulge, though. Before it looked like he swallowed a football even with a 2 gram fuzzy and that's when he weighed ~10 grams heavier. I do still think he's gained some length from when I first got him, but he's so thin right now he's looking even longer than he probably is. He still looks incredibly thin but not bloated or anything so it's weird the mouse bulge looks so much smaller.

I cannot stand seeing him in this state, I'm fervently hoping I can get him to improve and I don't want to put myself or another snake through this if I can. I thought having a picky ball python was bad, this is way worse. I'll take him maintaining weight again and gaining strength as a good thing.

bigsnakegirl785

11-11-16, 02:47 PM

Ugh OF COURSE the day I feed him he starts turning milky. :/ He's over a week late so I was starting to think he wouldn't shed. Well guess I'll have to give him time and feed him again. He's kept a 4 gram fuzzy down before (the feeding before this one), so I know it isn't the prey size.

bigsnakegirl785

12-11-16, 01:54 PM

I fed him and he actually pooped this time, he's holding his weight steady and gaining more strength. I flipped him over and he was able to roll into a tight ball where before the most he'd do is roll over.

He never did shed, which is unusual. In the entire time I've had him he pretty much shed every month on the dot. I never did see him go fully blue, but he was slightly milky for a few days. He looks like normal right now.

He continues to be docile, but aware of his surroundings. He's acting more like when I first got him, where he'd do nothing but ball up when I picked him up. He's still active at night, though, saw him crawling around last night when I came in to check on the temps in the snake room. My new space heater is heating the room really well, even at 18F it was a cozy 80-85F with no cold drafts going through the snake tubs.

SnoopySnake

12-11-16, 08:00 PM

I was just wondering about your little guy today. :) glad to hear that he seems to be doing better!

bigsnakegirl785

12-12-16, 12:27 AM

Here are recent photos of him, he's looking so bad, it's hard to believe he's maintaining weight now looking at these pictures.

http://i.imgur.com/YQzwNOV.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5GPwh3O.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/rscBZmf.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Os2INYx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/SGV7LWz.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/u2KS9Qk.jpg

Andy_G

12-12-16, 08:17 AM

Tsubaki

12-12-16, 12:31 PM

Poor little guy, he does look skinny :(

bigsnakegirl785

12-12-16, 09:46 PM

Looks really rough, but he's still soldiering on.

I hate to even propose this but has he exhibited any neuro signs that would point to IBD? Does he seem off at all? I only ask because the inability to keep down food is often the first sign...

Nope, he was weak for a bit there but nothing that seems like a neuro issue. He can control his movements just fine, no twisting, nothing. And I would think after exhibiting regurge symptoms for nearly 1.5 years he'd have succumbed to IBD by now.

Snakesitter

12-14-16, 07:09 AM

IBD is over diagnosed. It is also highly contagious. I doubt he has it, or some of the other animals would show signs by now.

Andy_G

12-14-16, 08:50 AM

True enough...just grasping at straws and wishing you had something to blame for this ongoing problem.

RAD House

12-14-16, 10:37 AM

I mean keeping weight on and fully digesting meals a good sign, I hope he has turned a corner for you.

bigsnakegirl785

12-14-16, 09:58 PM

True enough...just grasping at straws and wishing you had something to blame for this ongoing problem.

I do have something to blame for this problem. A most likely genetic disorder. I've had several other people say their Picasso stripes have regurge issues and the breeder has an adult female aberrant morph BRB with regurge issues as well. She is from a different line, though, and her issues aren't as extreme.

Andy_G

12-15-16, 05:34 AM

...is the line still being propagated by the breeder since this genetic flaw has been discovered?

bigsnakegirl785

12-15-16, 11:18 PM

...is the line still being propagated by the breeder since this genetic flaw has been discovered?

Yes. According to the breeder none of the other babies have been reported to have regurge issues. Not to him, at least. He also has several adult animals of the same line that AFAIK never presented the regurge problems. BUT, as I said I've had other people with Picasso stripes tell me all of their's had problems, and he has a single adult female of another line with issues as well (which she does not appear to be part of any breeding projects). They never told me where they got their animals from, though, just that they had several animals between them and all had issues.

Technically, Morzan's sister Guin did not have any regurge issues, but whether or not they would have eventually surfaced was never found out as she died from septicemia poisoning only 2 months after I got her. Her first 2 or 3 meals she kept down just fine, and they were average-sized meals.

It's impossible to tell if she just had a weak disposition due to a flaw in the line's genetics, or I somehow royally screwed up just with her. In the span of 18 days or so she went from perfectly healthy to a regurge and then dead.

For now, I'm just going to avoid Picasso stripes in the future, and possibly other similar lines if they seem to show the same problems.

bigsnakegirl785

12-22-16, 12:35 AM

More update photos of Morzan...I'm really at a loss of what to do here. I was going to take him to the vet Friday since it was my next day off (my last day was a weekend so I couldn't take him then) but when I went to feed him, he had absolutely no interest in food (the first time ever), and he's looking kinda faded. It's hard to tell if he's in shed or not...he's looking milky-ish but his belly isn't pink and his colors show up mostly normal on camera. Even in shed he usually shows some interest in food.

Do I wait and see if it is a shed cycle? Do I take him to the vet Friday anyways? Do I make the hard choice and end his suffering?

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/IMG_2463_zps4ucy2xql.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/IMG_2463_zps4ucy2xql.jpg.html)

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/IMG_2470_zpsxq2bol5k.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/IMG_2470_zpsxq2bol5k.jpg.html)

Here you can see the milkiness.

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/IMG_2464_zpsqpjqxose.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/IMG_2464_zpsqpjqxose.jpg.html)

Doesn't show up too well but you can see there's a bit of discoloration but no pinkness.

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/IMG_2465_zpseeb5ty93.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/IMG_2465_zpseeb5ty93.jpg.html)

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/IMG_2466_zps2pkkpaq1.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/IMG_2466_zps2pkkpaq1.jpg.html)

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/IMG_2467_zpsl0sebmbc.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/IMG_2467_zpsl0sebmbc.jpg.html)

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/IMG_2469_zpsb1mxgyi6.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/IMG_2469_zpsb1mxgyi6.jpg.html)

In this photo I was actually able to capture how much his ribs stick out.

http://i1157.photobucket.com/albums/p600/dtr_2009_/IMG_2468_zpsrryttayx.jpg (http://s1157.photobucket.com/user/dtr_2009_/media/IMG_2468_zpsrryttayx.jpg.html)

bigsnakegirl785

12-23-16, 03:10 PM

Update: he is deep in blue today, so it is a shed cycle. Still, the refusal to eat is abnormal for him and he's still skinny.

Fingers crossed he takes a fuzzy when he sheds.

Being in shed, I'm going to make a different appointment with the vet to bring him in after he's shed and digested his next meal a bit.

SnoopySnake

12-23-16, 10:28 PM

Glad to hear that it's just a shed. Fingers crossed he has a good shed and eats for you!

bigsnakegirl785

12-24-16, 02:42 AM

Glad to hear that it's just a shed. Fingers crossed he has a good shed and eats for you!

Thanks I figured part of it was him going into shed, but I'm still worried that he didn't so much as strike at his food. I suppose it's a good thing he didn't eat, the disinterest is just unusual for him. It was really hard to tell at the time for sure if he was shedding because the past month he's been in a constant state of just turning milky but not really milky, plus missing the last shed cycle threw me off.

I was worried about the state he was in, but with how skinny he is the shed cycle probably just accentuated any wrinkliness and made him seem worse than he was (the flash erased all the wrinkles on his belly). I did not weigh him as I didn't want him to stress any more, but I will do that once I can finally get another meal in him. His belly was awfully wrinkly and at certain parts his skin would fold up, but I suppose that's just from the shed cycle as their skin tends to lose plasticity.

His ribs showing still worries me but he's been like that since he dropped down to 44 grams. I just wish I knew of a way to get more nutrition in him that wouldn't result in a regurge.

bigsnakegirl785

01-11-17, 01:05 AM

He continues to hold his meals down...he didn't poop out his last meal but if poops out this one I'll give him another weighing, otherwise I'll weigh him on the 8th day mark since his last meal.

Last time I fed him was the easiest in a long time! Usually I have to aggressively bounce the mouse on his tail and back for minutes and minutes until he finally gets so angry he bites and then coils. One time I sat the mouse down on a loop and he grabbed the mouse, wrapped it, and then bit it. XD But this time he took the mouse almost immediately with hardly any bouncing. He's taken 2 or 3 3 gram fuzzies successfully now don't remember which. I may try him on 4 gram fuzzies again here soon.

SnoopySnake

01-11-17, 10:52 AM

Awesome news!!! I'm glad he seems to be doing better for you! Has he regurged since you turned his heat up?

bigsnakegirl785

01-11-17, 03:17 PM

Thanks Snoopy! Yes, he's regurged once in the past 3 months since I raised his hot spot. But that's good considering that his regurges were starting to up in frequency before I did that.

EL Ziggy

01-11-17, 09:51 PM

Congrats on the progress BSG. I hope he's turned the corner for you.

bigsnakegirl785

01-11-17, 10:04 PM

Congrats on the progress BSG. I hope he's turned the corner for you.

That's pretty much how the past 1-1.5 years have gone with him. Just constantly hoping to see improvement. At this point, I'm just happy his weight is staying steady and his regurges have calmed down. Unfortunately, if his shedding schedule changes I'm not going to be able to predict when to withhold food...I'm going to have to hope he improves enough to hold down his food or only wait a max of 2 weeks for a shed cycle and do that once a month. Last time he went like 2 months before he shed again, and the moment I was like "he's gone way too long without food he can't be going a month without food in his condition" and fed him -bam- a shed cycle and the a regurge. -.-

SnoopySnake

01-12-17, 12:41 AM

Thanks Snoopy! Yes, he's regurged once in the past 3 months since I raised his hot spot. But that's good considering that his regurges were starting to up in frequency before I did that.

Ah. Was wondering if the regurges were connected to the lower heat. In any event I'm glad he's doing ok and I hope he beings to thrive.

bigsnakegirl785

02-22-17, 12:03 AM

As an update, he's regurged 1 more time since I last updated, which has prompted me to completely forgo the 4 gram fuzzies. He kept down 2 or 3 of them, but it appears to be questionable at best if he'll keep them down. For now, I'll just be feeding him the 3 gram fuzzies as he defecates, which is usually 4-6 days after eating.

It's been 2 months since his last shed cycle, so he'll be due for another one any day now.

So far he hasn't lost any more weight, and although I think he gained a gram at one point he may just not have pooped yet or something...not going to hold my hopes up for just 1 gram, though. It's hard to believe in 4-5 months he'll be 2 years old and he hasn't gained a single gram in most of that time. He has gained some weight from birth, but none since then as far as I know.

SnoopySnake

02-26-17, 07:29 PM

Sorry to hear he's regurged again :( sounds like the smaller meals are the way to go, that's unfortunate. Still hoping for good things for him!

bigsnakegirl785

02-26-17, 07:41 PM

Sorry to hear he's regurged again :( sounds like the smaller meals are the way to go, that's unfortunate. Still hoping for good things for him!

He's eaten 3 meals without a regurge since the last regurge, so luckily I think if I just stick to feeding him the 3 gram fuzzies as he poops he should be fine. I really wanted to get him on the bigger prey to try to get him to finally make some progress, but if he can't take them he can't take them.

He's due for a shed soon so I will probably hold off on feeding him another fuzzy for a bit.

bigsnakegirl785

03-16-17, 03:16 PM

Well he shed a week or two ago, and I've finally stopped crashing from lack of sleep so I'm feeding the snakes, and he's lost another 4 grams. :/

RAD House

03-16-17, 07:27 PM

It is very cool how much time you have put into this guy. I believe in Karma so goods things will happen to you one way or another.

SnoopySnake

03-16-17, 08:40 PM

Well he shed a week or two ago, and I've finally stopped crashing from lack of sleep so I'm feeding the snakes, and he's lost another 4 grams. :/

Sorry to hear that :(

bigsnakegirl785

03-17-17, 05:10 AM

It is very cool how much time you have put into this guy. I believe in Karma so goods things will happen to you one way or another.

I've been hoping he'll rebound, but no matter what size mouse I feed him he just doesn't seem to gain anything, and even a single gram heavier than what I feed him and he regurges it half the time.

I'm going to try the vet one more time, and then I'm probably going to go ahead and have him euthanized. He's clearly not going to rebound, at least not without serious vet intervention, and he can't keep losing weight.

If I do have him euthanized, I'll have a necropsy done, and maybe that will give me more of an insight into why his condition is so bad.

I'm just baffled he gained so much weight from birth with his breeder, he went from 30-something to 55 grams when I got him at 6-8 months old and his current weight is 40 grams. I'm thinking maybe the shipping was just too much for him to handle and made his condition worse, it's the only thing I can think of.

Skipper7

03-17-17, 08:52 AM

I'm sorry if that's the route you choose. It's tough to put an animal down. I hope you can get some answers. You tried what you could and stuck with him for 6 months- that in itself is admirable.

bigsnakegirl785

03-17-17, 09:10 AM

I'm sorry if that's the route you choose. It's tough to put an animal down. I hope you can get some answers. You tried what you could and stuck with him for 6 months- that in itself is admirable.

Thanks for the well-wishes. I've elected to go the vet office in person since I'll be in Asheville anyways. I won't be able to bring him as he ate yesterday, but I can at least see if they'll give me a quote on what it would take to see him or a euthanization cost. And how they do it. I won't take him to them if they only do lethal injection or another method that does not work with reptiles.

As far as how long I've had him, it's actually been a year now - he'll be 2 in July. He was 6-8 months when I first got him.

bigsnakegirl785

03-17-17, 11:18 AM

Here are the photos I took of him last night, I want to make sure I have as recent of photos as possible before he passes.

https://68.media.tumblr.com/a75e563639f6942e0d6f86d252596b6e/tumblr_omyxvdipMJ1sjttato3_1280.jpg

https://68.media.tumblr.com/637a9a2a37f613bd35444d39dc7a0618/tumblr_omyxvdipMJ1sjttato1_1280.jpg

https://68.media.tumblr.com/c24d12c4d52f8f41ec814e539d91efbc/tumblr_omyxvdipMJ1sjttato2_1280.jpg

His spine is now clearly prominent, with the skin folding around it. I seriously think is is probably the last we'll see of him.

I will update with my decision once I am back from the vet's. Should be around 3-4 pm or a little later my time (eastern time zone USA).