a little bit of science involving Cobras

[J_Riley]

Was watching National Geographic last night after that idiot Brady Barr was done, they had a show called Snake Wrangler. The "star" was this Austrian guy that's getting his PhD from Yale.

He was collecting Cobra DNA (blood) to figure out why Cobra's are immune to their own venom.

Normally, cobra venom blocks muscle receptors and prevents the contraction signals from getting through. The cobras, however, have a special sugar molecule on their muscle receptors that blocks the venom molecules from bonding to the muscle receptors while allowing the nerve signals to function normally. I thought it was very cool, science rocks!

[BWSmith]

Very nice.

[Steeve B]

Yes I agree science rocks, however cobras are not totally immune to there venom, sorry for bad photo but this pair was kept together when cleaning cages, never hade problems until the end of first cooling period, they haven’t eaten in 3 months so blood sugar was indeed very low, the male bite the female and she died. I in turn got bitten buy this female trying to separate them as fast as possible, even if I hade ant venom 15 minutes away from my house what saved me was an insulin injection right after the bite, something only a handful of venomous experts know about, how lucky I was to know one thanks again. Kind regardshttp://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/Feb/20032202379981753236725.jpg ;)

[BWSmith]

Now I have had Crotalids bite each other on several occasions with no ill effects. But I have not experienced it personnally with elapids.

[J_Riley]

Originally posted by Steeve B
... however cobras are not totally immune to there venom... the male bit the female and she died..

Well then, that wasn't really her own venom, was it? ;)

I wonder if there are individual variations in the sugar molecule? I know when they discussed this, the example they used was the snake accidentally biting itself while feeding...

I know that he bagged a spitter and a couple others, but none like the ones pictured...

[Gregg M]

They may not die from the venom blocking receptors but the properties of the venom that break down tissue still has an effect on the snake and does cause major tissue damage...... So depending on where the bite is will determine wether the snake will live or die...... In my experiance self bites usually occur in defence or if the snake is feeling pressure from an external or inturnal source ie: a parrasite may cause a snake to bite itself..... Not proven but I think its a good guess......

[Lisa]

I didn't know that about the insulin, how exactly does that work?

[Jeremy]

Hey Steeve B,
Regarding your cobra incident, are those Naja pallidia? If this is the case and the info that J Riley presented is accurate(remember, you cant take everything the TV shows tell ya as 100 percent fact) injecting in insulin would not have been a nesesary nor life saveing thing for red spitter venom is primarily hemotoxic and it does not bind to the nerve receptors as typical Naja neurotoxins do. Though neurotoxins im sure are present, the main action of their venom is hemo. Had this been a Naja nevia or Naja melanoluca then the neuros would definately be the main cause of concern but not with red spitters, nor most of the African spitters(though im not too sure about the nigricollis ssp. I know they cause massive swelling and have a primarily hemo toxic venom as well but neuros maybe the main cuolprit in the higher mortality rate for this sp. They also have a much higher venom yeild then any spitter which may also help in raiseing their mortality rate)

BTW, incase you didnt know, there have been no confirmed deaths by Naja pallida envenomations.

My 2 pennies.

All the best,
Jeremy

[Jeremy]

Regarding cobras and self envenomations, I would have to say the main cause of self inflicted bites to captive Naja is due to their god awfull feeding responses!!! When most cobras geta wiff of food, they go nutts and I have had monacled strike at a live mouse, have the mouse jump outa the way of the strike and litteraly have the cobra nail itself!

I have also seem monacleds and other elapids bite them self when being feed dead prey. Usualy, I defrost rodents by sticking them in warm water to thaw.If one of the droplets of water lands on the snake, there is a posibilty that they will pick up on the sent and latch down. This has happened several times while feeding though I have never had any serious problems arise.

Another senario which seems to cause self inflicted bites or should I say, bites from cage mates is during breeding. I have seen female monacleds that had bites marks all over their necks from males which got alittle too eagar. This seem to be the case with Steeves incedent, depending on were the bite marks were. Though most of the time this results in only alittle blood and scaring, I knew a lady who had a male Ringhals kill his female while biteing her neck. It would seem rather rare though.

Again, my two pennies,
Jeremy

[Steeve B]

Jeremy thanks for these valuable information, aim sure many other appreciate your expertise, your right about the species, you are also right about the droplets of water, IV seen it a few times and was careful about it. the fighting was really about hunger, they where much to young for any sexual activity, and the male chewed on the females mid body, she wasn’t biting back, so I grabbed the male by the neck and worked to unhook his fangs with my free hand using a pencil, I actually saw here coming, she banged here snout on the side of my hand then she tong flicked opened her jaws and hit me on the knuckle. For people reading this let me say; I have already herd 100 times over the joke! (No the cobra did not die because it bite me) kind regards

[BWSmith]

But this is a good illustration for those thinking of getting into hots that eventually you WILL have to come into contact with them. Ya can't just keep em in a cage and look at them.

Steve, I think you learned a very valuable lesson from that little encounter.

[Steeve B]

You bet I did, also I agree 100% that you cant keep them without having to ever manipulate them at all, let it be an eye cap an injury or anything else. This I say to all hot keepers but especially new potential keepers put your pride aside, I was the guy everyone knew as a true reptile’s keeper, be it venomous or crocodilian anything goes a very passionate and responsible guy.
But in the case of venomous snakes I was dishonest to myself, iv always said if an other man can do it so can I (not always true) you see every time I had to manipulate a venomous snake I was scared ****, even do I didn’t show it but nevertheless that’s how I was feeling inside, this fear was dangerous to my security and because of this I was involved in 3 possibly fatal mistake ok 2 if the red spiter was not lethal, how lucky can you get? My first mistake was leaning my hand on a bag containing a Russell viper while I was soaking a baby forest cobra in the sink beside it. my second and most frightening encounter ever was also the product of fear, I just unpacked a 5 feet male king cobra and caged it, now for those hoe don’t know, reception of imports is when you check them out and maybe take a few tics off, so you usually locate the head thru the bag pin it grab a hold and carefully get the snake out while restraining the head. So as I said everything went ok till I got to the female first the bag was much heavier, it was 2am and the male really freaked me out, my lack of experience and my fear made me do the worst thing you can ever do in this condition, I grabbed the head and started to unbag the cobras body then suddenly its body wiggled vigorously and in a fraction of a second I tot there was 2 snake and I released my grip. Total disaster now I was alone in an 8feet by 8feet room with an 11 king cobra loos, aim telling you peoples if theirs such a thing as a guardian angel, I have the best one. Here I am with little cobra experience and all I can think about is not fainting my hands where so wet from sweating that I was scared to loos my grip not to mention the shaking, the cobra was trying to escape while I was pulling her tail and body to me I was able to put my hand flat on her head and pin her down. This is still scaring the heck out of me, even if now days I have more knowledge I still don’t have more experience but I know venomous are not for me. Somehow maybe that’s what my albino was giving me that others didn’t a sense of security.
I know that I made major mistakes and was lucky to get away unharmed, but if you guys have constructive comments you think may help others feel free to do so. Kind regards

[ballpython5000]

im gonna definitly shoot up on sugar before handling a cobra :)

[Gregg M]

Steeve,
I too have been too close to the sharp end of the snake a few times...... As John A can tell you...... I have learned from those mistakes and have never made the same ones twice....... I think the mistakes I have made make me a better keeper....... So far I have a perfect record and have never been envenomated by a snake....... But the law of averages always finds a way to catch up....... So any one looking to get into venomous better understand what they are about to get into an be prepared for the worst....... Because it could happen......

[BWSmith]

Well said. I think elapids have been my closest calles as well. O hannah are tough to work with. We tubed a 9 footer to pull ticks off. She arched and split the tube!!! Not a fun day!

[Steeve B]

Your right again only elapid’s, I have no problem with most vipers and crotalides, in fact aim quit fund of arboreal vipers.
Aim very impress by the knowledge on this forum, something not easy to find 15 years ago, I for one appreciate this and think its most important, even more so then expertise concerning all other herps, as this particular group needs a specialise keeper. Kind regards