RHP with common boa

[soad]

I was just wondering if an 80 watt rhp will be good enough for the animal plastics t10 or if I should have flex watt underneath as well?

[Snakesitter]

I would ask the RHP vendor. In addition to the size of the viv, your heating needs will also vary depending on the room's ambient temperature -- a colder room will need more heat to offset it.

[Sublimeballs]

^ this.

But in my experience I've never had to use any other heat with a heat panel. I've used both a 40 & 80 watt in a 4x2(not at the same time lol) both worked great but the 40is what I stuck with for a 4x2.

[soad]

Thanks for the input guys, sometimes the room may drop a little below 70, I'll be purchasing from reptile basics.

[Snakesitter]

You are welcome, and good luck -- let us know what you decide to do!

[Sublimeballs]

All my panels are RBI and I'm very happy with them. Great guys. They're relatively local to me and I've been to their shop on several ocasions. I highly recommend them.

[revent]

i have a couple of constrictor northwest cages that are 4x2x 14" that i have reptile basics 80 watt heat panels in. I have to say i am very impressed with them. my room conditions sound similar to yours and they work great. they seem to hardly draw any power to keep temps very stable. but with that said i feel like 40 watts would have been fine now that i have them i just wanted to go with 80 to be safe, and I still dont regret that decision.

[Mad Max]

The people at Pro-Products said that all under tank heaters are unnecessary and potentially dangerous when I spoke to them on the phone.

Pro Heat (http://pro-products.com/pro-heat/)

[Snakesitter]

All undertank dangerous? That seems like a competitive overstatement to me....

[Mad Max]

All undertank dangerous? That seems like a competitive overstatement to me....

Have you spoken to them about it or read the link that I provided? Salesmanship is definitely a possibility, but then they could also produce and sell under tank heaters if they just wanted to make more sales.

[Snakesitter]

The link is impressive. It is also clearly a marketing piece. ;-) What caught my eye was the very broad use of "all under tank heaters are unnecessary and potentially dangerous"...which is fairly heavy.

[Mad Max]

The link is impressive. It is also clearly a marketing piece. ;-) What caught my eye was the very broad use of "all under tank heaters are unnecessary and potentially dangerous"...which is fairly heavy.

Clearly. Who doesn't market their products? But the two points that caught your eye shouldn't be too hard to disprove if they're false. So, why would an under tank heater be necessary when a radiant heat panel is used? And which under tank heater has no possibility of burns or combustion?

[Mad Max]

The people at Pro-Products said that all under tank heaters are unnecessary and potentially dangerous when I spoke to them on the phone.

Pro Heat (http://pro-products.com/pro-heat/)

All undertank dangerous? That seems like a competitive overstatement to me....

Well, I emailed them and a man named Bob was nice enough to reply. Here's what he had to say: Hi -----,
I did try to respond to the post you sent, but it was denied by the site (despite joining). If you would like to post my reply to the forum, Please feel free to do so. A copy is attached. Your panel is currently in the test rack and will be ready to ship by Tues. I appreciate your confidence in our products and look forward to serving you again in the future.
Bob @ Pro Products
promist@comcast.net
Pro Products ? Specialized Habitat Control Products (http://www.pro-products.com)
845-628-8960 (tel:845-628-8960)




Hi everyone. This post was brought to our attention by someone on your forum. To respond to the statement that we say that all undertank heaters are dangerous, this is not correct.
What I do state is that reptiles have evolved being heated from above with radiant energy from the sun, so will thermo-regulate more efficiently when heated from overhead with a proper radiant source. If all you provide is an undertank heater, the animal has no choice but to use it, but it is not the best method to use in most instances.
Those that use the "belly heat from a hot rock or other object" to support the claim that undertank heaters are preferred, do not take into account that the object was heated from above by the sun and when a reptile rests on it, it cuts off the heat source so the rock or other object will begin to cool down and can never remain at the same temperature or get hotter.
Since we strongly believe it is best to replicate natural conditions when possible, we do not sell undertank heaters for the above reason (even though we could add to the bottom line if we did).
What I also say regarding heaters in general (undertank or radiant panels) is that many brands being sold are not UL listed and use elements or designs that have a long history of overheating, shorting out and causing fires. These reports are not hard to find throughout the many forums, for example http://moreliaviridis.yuku.com/topic/22349/Best-Heat-Panels-post-classifieds. If you do want to use an undertank heater, by choosing one that is UL listed for the purpose (meaning it has the UL symbol on the finished product label) reduces the risk that one will come home some day and find a damaged cage, dead animals or worse, the fire dept. in their front yard. As these products age, the risk increases. In our industry few people seem to care about this until something happens and then it is too late.
Bob @ Pro Products


Even though there is a reduced risk of combustion, I still maintain that a UL listed UTH is still potentially dangerous, whereas Pro-Products RHP's are safe to the touch and pose no risk of combustion (*their claim). My UL listed Exo-Terra UTH shorted out 2 weeks ago, after just six months of use. The safety circuit did prevent more power from going to the heater, but it did so by burning itself out along with a quarter sized hole in the UTH, which made me wonder how hot that one spot must have been at the time of melting. I'm just glad that Karl wasn't hurt, but I wonder what could have happened had I owned a plastic cage at the time instead of a glass one. Regardless, it made my whole house stink of electrical fire and I personally will not risk using UTH's in the future, until I deem them of greater reward.

But that is just my opinion based on what I have experienced and learned from Pro-Products as well as others.

*Safest:

Can’t catch on or cause a fire, period.
Are UL, ULC & CE listed as a finished product.
Pro Heat™ Radiant Panels are made from completely non-combustible materials, so pose no risk of a fire hazard, nor can they damage or injure anything in the cage.
Pro Heat™ Radiant Panels can be safely mounted directly against any type of surface.

[bigsnakegirl785]

I also just find the way UTH/heat tape, etc. to highly inefficient in heating and I don't much like them. Since the air is room temp, not as much humidity leaves the bedding because the air can't hold as much and the bedding isn't being heated enough. Since I use my bedding to provide humidity, this becomes a problem, as the bedding will mold if not enough humidity is released fast enough, and if left for a long time could potentially cause scale rot. This means, in any enclosures I use belly heat, I must adopt a completely new way of providing humidity. Using solely belly heat means whenever the room temp drops, the snake's enclosure temps drops, too, since the air will never be above room temp. So any time the room temp drops (which is often as it's drafty), I must move the snake into a different room and heat it with a space heater, otherwise they will become extremely slugglish. I prefer using overhead heating where I can because of these reasons.

[Snakesitter]

Mad Max, you seem very determined to reach the conclusion that RHPs are the ultimate solution, including reaching out to sources that will only confirm your opinion. If you like RHPs, go for it. I personally feel both options are fine. However, I've long since used Flexwatt and found it works fine for my needs. As I recall, it's fairly safe, too. Good luck with whichever decision you make. :-)

[Mad Max]

Mad Max, you seem very determined to reach the conclusion that RHPs are the ultimate solution, including reaching out to sources that will only confirm your opinion. If you like RHPs, go for it. I personally feel both options are fine. However, I've long since used Flexwatt and found it works fine for my needs. As I recall, it's fairly safe, too. Good luck with whichever decision you make. :-)

Well I'm not and I haven't. It's just that Pro-Products is a very well respected company and they've taken the time to explain their thoughts to me, while you have not. Maybe if you could answer any of the questions that I've already asked you, then I'd have a better understanding of the situation. My only goal is to weigh the options and, hopefully, make the best decision available. If you'll tell me why a UTH is necessary when an RHP is already being used and name a brand of UTH with no possibility of combustion, then I'll certainly keep an open mind to what you have to say.

I have a nice time on sSnakeSs and I enjoy talking to people with similar interests, but all I really care about on this forum is my snake. I'm here to learn; I'm not here to be a Sophist.

So, why would an under tank heater be necessary when a radiant heat panel is used? And which under tank heater has no possibility of burns or combustion?

[Mad Max]

I also just find the way UTH/heat tape, etc. to highly inefficient in heating...

Using solely belly heat means whenever the room temp drops, the snake's enclosure temps drops, too, since the air will never be above room temp...

I prefer using overhead heating where I can because of these reasons.

See, that makes sense to me. You gave your opinion and explained the logic behind it. Do you see any benefit to using an under tank heater in combination with a radiant heat panel, bigsnakegirl?

[JWFugle]

for my 1/4 cent worth of opinion, id lean towards the RHPs, if they made a flexwatt like object or platform that could go in the enclosure id be more into them but due to the fact that the flexwatt has to heat through the bottom of the cage, through the substrate(thick or thin) and then into the reptile. all while the opposite side of the flexwatt is exposed to signifagantly cooler ampient air. it just seems like a inefficient method.

i liken it to leaving the oven door open while cooking, yea it might cook your food but your gonna waste a lot of heat to the kitchen during that time.

But... Flexwatt is very cheap, easy to use, low energy consumption, and like they said does work well for thousands of people. it makes perfect sense for those who own racks or large numbers of snakes where $90-300 per heat element is not do able for that type of breeder or owner.

[Mad Max]

Flexwatt is very cheap. It makes perfect sense for those who own racks or large numbers of snakes where $90-300 per heat element is not do able for that type of breeder or owner.

That's all I've come up with so far.

[Snakesitter]

Well I'm not and I haven't.
My point, sir, is that you're only seeking out experts on one side of the equation. Have you written a well-known undercage manufacturer for their opinion/counter?

(And BTW, for the record, when you quoted me to the vendor you chose the one time I omitted "potentially" -- my other and more-recent-to-your-reply quote had included that word. My apologies for missing it that once, but I find it surprising you quoted my correct version another time here, but only sent the flawed version to the vendor.)

Anyway, I am clearly *not* not a vendor, so I have no horse in this race. But for undertank pluses, in addition to the ones noted by JWFugle above, I also find these solutions have four advantages:

One, they promote evaporation in an enclosure, when used in combination with a water bowl placed partly over it or damp substrate. For any humidity-loving species, this is a strong plus.

Two, they lower ongoing energy use and therefore operating cost. The initial installation cost is not the only one….

Three, they I believe they draw less power. Large collections, with many heat sources over many enclosures, can challenge older electric systems -- heat, lights, stats, it all adds up fast.

Finally, they avoid the clutter and risks of having yet another cord going into an enclosure.

Anyway, I wish you luck with whichever decision you make.

[Mad Max]

My point, sir, is that you're only seeking out experts on one side of the equation.

Actually, that's incorrect. The lead herpetologist where I work doesn't use under tank heaters either and she doesn't have a side, as far as I know. The zoo curator also said that I could do without one. I probably should contact Reptile Basics and see what they have to say though.

(And BTW, for the record, when you quoted me to the vendor you chose the one time I omitted "potentially" -- my other and more-recent-to-your-reply quote had included that word. My apologies for missing it that once, but I find it surprising you quoted my correct version another time here, but only sent the flawed version to the vendor.)

And I think that you're being overly sensitive. I didn't "send" anything you wrote to the vendor; I quoted you in a post that I wrote to the forum. Your "version" was incorrect. You quoted a post without the omission, but it wasn't your own statement and you did fail to include it in the post that you actually wrote.

It's this sort of inattention to detail that makes clarification necessary when responding to you.

Anyway, I am clearly *not* not a vendor, so I have no horse in this race. But for undertank pluses, in addition to the ones noted by JWFugle above, I also find these solutions have four advantages:

One, they promote evaporation in an enclosure, when used in combination with a water bowl placed partly over it or damp substrate. For any humidity-loving species, this is a strong plus.

Honest question... do radiant heat panels also increase evaporation? I think bigsnakegirl said that they're better at it.

Two, they lower ongoing energy use and therefore operating cost.

Maybe so, but do you know by how much? I don't.

Three, they I believe they draw less power.

I hope you won't get upset, but I think you'll agree that number two and number three are the same.

Finally, they avoid the clutter and risks of having yet another cord going into an enclosure.

That's probably a very good point. Thank you for mentioning it.

Anyway, I wish you luck with whichever decision you make.

Thanks. Same to you... I'm just trying to take care of my snake.

I'll buy him the best UTH I can find if I still need one after I get my RHP (I originally planned to) and I will post Reptile Basic's response to my email when I receive it.

If I change my mind about all this and decide that you've helped Karl, then you're going to get a big electronic hug from me, Snakesitter! :bouncy:

[Snakesitter]

Sorry, Point #3 was a reference to operating cost, and Point #4 was reference to power grid load. I'd originally had them as one combined point then broke them up -- to me they are both pluses, even if they draw from the same underlying cause, as my apartment building was apparently constructed in the stone age and power load is a major issue. But I get your point.

My point regarding specialists was that you were only talking to partisans on one side of the issue. I'm sure your lead herpetologist and zoo curator are wonderful and experience people, but as you said both are neutral -- whereas the RHP manufacturer will be firmly in one camp. The missing opinion would restore the balance. Thank you for reaching out for it.

As for the missing word, I had one version with, and one without. I was annoyed because it looked like you'd buried the correct use, which you had already quoted, to advance your argument...but perhaps that was just an honest error. No worries.

As for evaporation, both will promote it to a degree...but I suspect the undercage will do a better job. For example, I lay sheet of paper towel directly over my heating elements, which makes the process more direct (high temps right on the water) and therefore faster/more efficient. A radiant heat panel will have less heat reaching that same water, and therefore presumably less evaporation. Unless I am mistaken, the enclosure's air temp is more of an indirect effect: it will impact how much humidity can be held in the air, but this is secondary to causing the evaporation itself at the source. Hopefully that makes sense.

It took me a moment to figure out who Karl was.... :-)

[SnoopySnake]

As far as evaporation goes, I noticed that the heat mats (I use an ultratherm) put much more humidity in the air when used with a damp substrate and partially under the water bowl. I noticed with the radiant heat panel, with those same conditions, ended up making my tub drier. Just wanted to put my experience out there. :) I say it all depends on what kind of snake/reptile its for.

[Snakesitter]

Thank you, Snoopy. I agree different species will benefit from different heating.

[Mad Max]

Okay, I asked Reptile Basics if I should use an under tank heater with a radiant heat panel and this is the reply that I received:
Hi -----,
It really depends on the size of the tank, room temp etc

Thank you,
BobbyNot overly informative, but it made me think of something that hasn't been mentioned here already; a very tall tank with an animal that likes to climb and spend lots of time on the ground might benefit from both an RHP and a UTH.

But I spoke to a different person at Pro-Products this time and he told me that they make over 200 different models of RHP, some capable of heating tall rooms. So, I think that while there may be some times when a UTH could possibly be beneficial, they just aren't the best option for the majority of reptiles out there (even if they're a decent option that works well for many). I am far from certain though and I'll still be thinking about this for a long time to come.

Under tank heaters may be more economical and they might make proper husbandry easier if they take some of the work out of controlling the humidity, but we never seem to have any problem with that unless we're using heat bulbs. However, we use deeper substrate than paper towels, which would be a poor choice for controlling humidity anyway and I'd rather monitor the humidity than set my tank on top of a combustible, electric heat source.


The missing opinion would restore the balance. Thank you for reaching out for it.

The people at Pro-Products do seem pretty sure of themselves, but I never got the feeling that they said anything they didn't believe and they're highly recommended by people in the hobby as well as professionals that I know.

As for the missing word, I had one version with, and one without. I was annoyed because it looked like you'd buried the correct use, which you had already quoted, to advance your argument...but perhaps that was just an honest error. No worries.

I'm petty, but I'm not that petty. As I told you, your own words were not the same as my "correct version" which you quoted, so I made sure to re-clarify my statement. And like I also said, I'm really just here to learn. Being critical, but still open to new information isn't the same as an argument.


As for evaporation, both will promote it to a degree...but I suspect the undercage will do a better job. For example, I lay sheet of paper towel directly over my heating elements, which makes the process more direct (high temps right on the water) and therefore faster/more efficient. A radiant heat panel will have less heat reaching that same water, and therefore presumably less evaporation. Unless I am mistaken, the enclosure's air temp is more of an indirect effect: it will impact how much humidity can be held in the air, but this is secondary to causing the evaporation itself at the source. Hopefully that makes sense.

I use a Herpstat with a heat sensor, so it's going to be about 90 degrees at the sensor (substrate level) no matter where the heat comes from. Thicker substrate could help your situation - either way I'd use butcher's paper instead of paper towels if that's what you're feeding your snakes on. I hate seeing that picture of the boa that died from swallowing paper towels.

It took me a moment to figure out who Karl was.... :-)

<<< Yeah, my BCI. :)
VVV

Anyway, all that and I'm still just stuck with an opinion and no definite answer. But I'm pretty confident that my current decisions will work out well and involve the least amount of risk to my snake's health, hopefully. If not, then I'll change things for him.

[bigsnakegirl785]

See, that makes sense to me. You gave your opinion and explained the logic behind it. Do you see any benefit to using an under tank heater in combination with a radiant heat panel, bigsnakegirl?

Not really. The RHP seems to heat the bedding perfectly well, so I don't see a reason to use an undertank heater with it. My temp gun reads the same temps on the surface of the bedding as my thermostat probes are reading, and picking up my snake's belly, they read about the the same as well.

[Mad Max]

My temp gun reads the same temps on the surface of the bedding as my thermostat probes are reading, and picking up my snake's belly, they read about the the same as well.

It's funny now that I think about it, but my snake is probably one of the few things in my house that I can't remember using my temperature gun on, though I have used it on most of the people who come to visit. :)

[bigsnakegirl785]

It's funny now that I think about it, but my snake is probably one of the few things in my house that I can't remember using my temperature gun on, though I have used it on most of the people who come to visit. :)

Since they're ectothermic, I'd logically assume their surface temp would be the same as the air temp and their core temp, or the temp of the surface they're sitting on, maybe a bit warmer if they're soaking up the warmth from said surface (and thus cooling the surface). I also measure head temps, and depending on how long they've been on that side, it might vary by a few degrees or be the same. But, the temps taken from the thermostat probe, the surface of the bedding, and from multiple locations on the snake reflect the same temperatures or vary by very little, so I assume just an overhead heater is sufficient for all forms of heat.

[Snakesitter]

It probably would. :-) However, thicker substrate can hide issues (poop, uneaten food, even injury) , and as I breed I'd rather be able to spot issues quickly.

Sounds like you have a plan, then! Please let us know how it works out.

[Mad Max]

Since they're ectothermic, I'd logically assume their surface temp would be the same as the air temp and their core temp, or the temp of the surface they're sitting on, maybe a bit warmer if they're soaking up the warmth from said surface (and thus cooling the surface).

So would I. I usually just use the temp gun on his enclosure and the F/T items that I feed him, but it's also been a fun toy around the house.

It probably would. :-) However, thicker substrate can hide issues (poop, uneaten food, even injury) , and as I breed I'd rather be able to spot issues quickly.

Sounds like you have a plan, then! Please let us know how it works out.

That makes sense. I looked at your snakes on facebook the other day (very colorful), but I can't open your website for some reason.

I'll do a short writeup sometime, maybe on the thread that I made for Karl.

[bigsnakegirl785]

It probably would. :-) However, thicker substrate can hide issues (poop, uneaten food, even injury) , and as I breed I'd rather be able to spot issues quickly.

Sounds like you have a plan, then! Please let us know how it works out.

That's pretty logical. :) Luckily I've only got a few snakes, so it doesn't take me long to comb through their bedding. Expanding the EcoEarth blocks I need even for the few I have is also extremely time-consuming when full substrate changes come along....I don't even want to imagine it on a breeding facility scale, even using only small enclosures. lol

[Mad Max]

I don't even want to imagine it on a breeding facility scale, even using only small enclosures. lol

Yep. They definitely have things to consider that most of us don't and I'm glad that they do what they do since I don't especially want to own wild caught animals.

[Snakesitter]

Website is still in process. No time. So we use Facebook for now.

Looking forward to it!