Which non-venomous snake species...

[Edwin]

...acts like one? I have some interest in hots, but don't see myself ever owning one, and am not fond of venomoids. However, I would like to maybe look into non-venomous species that have similar temperaments. Any recommendation or comments? Thanks!

[Weather1]

I have heard many people use Amazon Tree Boas

[Feed'em All]

Once I have to catch barehand a tiny Helicops infrataeniatus to return it to its cage, they are nasty as they can be! It tried to hit me several times (luckily all the times I was a bit far away) until finally it hit my friend in the leg (he was on his knees) as he was wearing jeans, he didn't feel the byte, co I had to release the jaws, and put the tiny :devil: on the cage again. I dunno if you will be able to find any of those, but they act really like hots.
Another thing is that being acuatic snakes their saliva may be infectious....
Hope it helps....
Martin.

[BWSmith]

Actually, many aquatic snakes have an anticoagulant in their saliva which makes bleed alot.

As far as nonvens acting like vens....... let's see. Vipers are very deliberate and unique in their movements and strike positions. Can't really think of any nonvens off the top of my head that act like vipers. I would venture to say that a Coachwhip is probably the closest nonvenomous counterpart to an elapid (used in a general sense).

But it all comes to the fact that you KNOW they are nonvenomous, so whether you intend to or not, they are going to get lest respect and care in handong than a hot.

and am not fond of venomoids
Glad to hear it. I find them an abomination of nature. I would much rather someone either not keep hots or train with an experienced keeper than "practice" with voids. Thumbs up.

[Gregg M]

There is no non ven that will ever prep you for a hot snake....... It is like apples and oranges or more like apples and water mellons.... Nothing will teach you how to handle a venomous snake but a venomous snake and an experianced keeper...... I also do not think there is a good first venomous snake....... They are all venomous and can land you in a hospital or an early grave....... Even the most mildly venomous snake can prove to be fatal...... It all has to do with your skill and comfort level....... Your head has to be in the right place and you can never break concetration like you can with a non ven....... If you do you will soon be asking your self why you bought that venomous snake in the first place......

[Mustangrde1]

Acts like a hot hmmm. Maybe a Emerald Tree Boa, as far as willingness to bite or a Amazon Tree Boa. But as pointed out previously THEY ARNT HOTS and nothing can prepare you for that other than experiance.

I must give Florida credit for its laws for owning venomous reptiles however and it should me a model for all states and anyone wishing to own and keep hots.

You must have 1 year of substantial and practical experiance in the Care, Feeding ,Handling and Husbandry of the species you wish to keep not to consist of less than 1000

Scott

[Matt]

edwin, IMO, <i>Elaphe carinata</i> works really well...they are large snakes and most are absolutely crazy.
usually they will bite anything and everything as well as thrashing when you pick them up.....
there are many good species to use for your purpose including all the above!

[snakemann87]

Originally posted by Edwin
[Bnot fond of venomoids. [/B]

I am also glad to here it. My herp society is STRICTLY nonvenomous and HIGHLY against any venomoids. I and we belive that if you can't handle the snake being venomous, dont get it, leave it as god created it.

[Edwin]

Thanks for all the replies, looks like a arboreal or aquatic species are my best options. I am not using this to ease my transition into hots, but to get used to dealing with fast, unpredictable snakes. Also, I have a friend with very little snake experience who is really interested in purchasing a hot, and am trying to dissuade him from it by getting him to try a nippy ATB or elaphe first. Each time he gets bit by those snakes would hopefully make him think twice about getting a hot, as he end up seriously hurt or in a body bag.

[ETET]

May be show him some photos after bitten by a hot or a $15,000 hospital bill. This should help your friend from killing himself or someone around him.


ETET

[Matt]

i have some great shots of bite victims that would scare him straight
Id love to post 'em, but 1) they are WAY to graphic and 2)they are copywritten by the person who gave them to me, and i cant post them, sorry

...plus ETET's right, the hospital bill alone is enough to frighten anyone :)

[ETET]

Forget one thing Edwin, may be ask you friend "why he want a hot?", let him answer you and himself honestly. Explain the responsibility, consquences, risk and most important his capability, if he consider all these things, probably he will figure out hots is not for him at this moment.

I think one want to step a foot into "hots" territory should know why him/herself want to keep these deadly animals. This is a personal decision, only a person with a clear mind and know his/her capability honestly can handle these animals safely.


ETET :)

[Edwin]

ETET, thats a good point. We have already had this discussion, and he wants to get a hot because he thinks they arent that difficult to care for as his corns/kings, prices are affordable, and like most people, he is fascinated by their colours/patterns.

Yeah, I have seen examples of hospital bills posted on other websites, and yup, they are very, very scary :).

Matt, do you know of anyone who breeds elaphe carinata in Ontario? Helicops infrataeniatus is near impossible to find here in Canada.

Thanks!!

[snakemann87]

lol, ask him how he expects to clean the cage and change the water daily.

[Gregg M]

Edwin,
Just that one statement alone is enough to think your friend has no idea about reptiles period...... How can something like a gaboon or rattlesnake be easier to care for???? I dont think it gets any easier than kings and corns....... If anything most venomous species are very specialized and need way more attention than kings and corns...... I had king snakes when I was 8 years old....... This hobby has enough people that dont have a clue about what they are getting into...... You should do your best to talk him out of making a huge mistake.....

[Feed'em All]

Yeah, I warned you about helicops availability :D
How about a rear fanged?
Martin.

[reverendsterlin]

a nice coachwhip is fast an accurate usually with a nasty disposition. the good looking southern copperhead is another choice but is hot

[Matt]

edwin, off hand, i cant think of any breeders of carinata in canada, but they arent CITES, so if you can find one in the states, should be hard to get up here....i will let you know if i come across any!

[Edwin]

Martin: I drew some blank stares when I asked around for helicops, if I am not mistaken, they are not that common (for sale) in Argentina too?

reverendsterlin: a coachwhip is a good choice too, but they are not many for sale in Canada. I dont think the southern copperhead is a good idea lol

Matt: I think I saw some ads for carinata, but they were all in the states and some were really old. Not many people breed this species it seems.

Gregg: Unfortunately, I think that he may have gotten that impression from a breeder we visited that sells nothing but hots. The snakes there were kept in aquariums with no hot spots or hide, and all the aquariums were stacked up 3 or 4 high. Really filthy conditions too, especially in the lower aquariums. According to the breeder, his snakes were "thriving" in those conditions, and they are more hardy than nonvenomous species. Hah.

There are plenty of ATBs available right now, and I think they should do the trick, as he likes their colours. I am going to tell him that they are mildly venomous and hopefully scare some sense into him when he gets nipped, heh-heh.

[J_Riley]

most venomous species are really quite different from harmless species in both habits and appearance. But for sake of interest, I think good comparisons in similarity could be made from nippy specimens of species like Corallus enhydris (tree boas) with Trimeresurus / Bothriechis tree vipers; small to medium-sized Blood pythons with larger, heavier-bodied Bitis vipers like Gaboon vipers, Rhinoceros vipers and Puff adders; Drymarchon (Cribos and Indigos) with Naja cobras; and nervous specimens of arboreal Spilotes and Gonyosoma ratsnakes can pull of a convincing impersonation of Dendroaspis (mamba) speed and agility – with an inclination to bite if cornered or restrained

From a conversation with a well known hot keeper...

[Feed'em All]

Riley: Nice comparisons!!!
I know about the helicops, but here in Argentina almost anything is available, you can get a ball python, or a ball, or maybe a ball...:D
OK seriously, just regius, or molurus, or elaphe g.g. and if you are extremely lucky, curtus.
I have seen wild helicops, that's why I know their nasty behavior.
Cheers, Martin.
BTW, if someone have imported to argentina, pls let me know how is the process..

[Edwin]

J Riley: I second that, those are really good comparisons. :)

Martin: Its better here in Canada, the bulk are balls and elaphe, but you can find lots of other species too. For example, more and more curtus are available here now. But nothing beats the US for sheer variety and quantity. If you are interested in imports, there are lots of people here that could perhaps help you out. Or you could email some of the breeders that ship internationally for advice.

Got to say that I have learnt a lot from you guys.. thanks!

[Gregg M]

I will have to disagree with those....... All of them just have a similar body shape at best....... Like I said vens and non ven are very very different in all aspects and a non ven can not prep you for a ven.....

[J_Riley]

As I noted, not my comparisons, just an answer I got for this question from an experienced hot keeper many months ago.

I think the Corallus Hortulanus comparison with the Bothriechis is fairly accurate. I'm not so sure on the Blood python vs. Bitis at all. Since I've never kept Drymarchon, I cannot comment. Hell, since I've never kept any hots, I can't comment ;)

Personally, I think Coluber and Masticophis are close to a mamba, in terms of attitude and quickness to bite. But that's kinda like saying a pothead is almost as violent as a smack junkie.

[BWSmith]

Best nonvenomous that acts like a hot.......... hmmmmmmm...... I am going to have to with a Cornsnake on crack shooting a pistol.