Bothrops spp.

[Feed'em All]

Hi! I am looking for info about b.alternatus and b.neuwiedi, as I am planning to keep one of this species in a couple years.
The most I need is info about housing and stuff, and the other thing I am not sure is if they are good "first hots" (yeah I've heard about the endless discussion).
Anyway, at this point of the thread I guess you know what I mean...
Thanks!!! Martin.

ps:If you have any documents to email me it would be really cool.

[BWSmith]

I dont think that ANY Bothrops will make a good first hot :eek: If you HAVE to have a hot, Agkistrodon might be a little better.

[ETET]

Hi Martin!

I think the first thing to do is to decide which species you are going to keep, like b. neuwiedi has 12 subspecies. Many of them need their specific environment and diet and mostly a big enclosure. Once you decide, you will be easier to find more specific info about caring that species. Concerning "is bothrops is a good first hot or not", I agree with BWSmith. My friend work with some of them like b. alternatus which is a very beautiful snake; but also a big snake ~5ft, very fast , agile and most of them are very aggressive. This is one of the most feared snake in south america as they possess a very strong cytotoxic which has a high fatal rate. If you don't mind try some easier species before move to bothrops ;as they require more advancing skills for handling. Don't know if this can help or not.



ETET :)

[Matt]

i have to agree as well, dont start with a Bothrops spp.
At least not yet, I would progess to Bothrops if I were you.

good luck :)

[Feed'em All]

Hey guys! OK thank you for sharing four opinions, but I guess there is a little detail all of us missed...I LIVE IN ARGENTINA, so it would be almost (not to say completely) imposible to import a hot or a foreign specie antivenin (if you know a way, I will be more than pleased to know how to).
So the species and the antivenin I would have access are:
Bothrops Aternatus (Urutu,Big Yarara)
Bothrops Neuwiedi (Neuwiedi's Lancehead, Small Yarara)
Crotalus Durissus Terrificus (Neotropical Rattlesnake)
Micrurus spp. (coral snakes)
Anyway the crotalus get huge and not so good looking as bothrops :D and you know the thing with corals, I dont wanna spend my life trying to get other herp feeders ( I barely can get rats :p ).
Well, I hope that clarify a bit more my situation, any opinions are welcome.
Cheers, Martin

[Feed'em All]

One more thing, concerning the BWSmith...Is not that I HAVE not have a hot, personally I love constrictor ( In fact is all I got now), I dont like colubrids, and I was scared to my very soul about hots, but when I first saw him in person (not being poked by Steve Irwin) I just felt in love, I heat sensitive pits are just wonderful, the way they remain coiled are just amazing, I know I won't be able to touch them, but damn I will be like watchin' them all the time like this :jawdrop: I didn't have the opportunity to see them move around all still they amazed me, I mean, well, I guess you already got me.
To BWSmith: I really appreciate your concern about another person's life, I just wanna make clear what are my goals or my purposes with this creatures.
Again (and again and....) THanKS!

[Jurliki]

Well, i think that in Buenos Aires you can get some antivenim. Obviously, if there are some elapids (and asian rear fanged)traders, they must to know where to get it.
Anyway, I think you can decide what is better for you.
Saludos desde España.


Jurliki

[J_Riley]

Originally posted by Feed'em All
I know I won't be able to touch them,

So what are you going to do if it has a bad shed? What about if it needs medication?

That is a common misunderstanding of a potential venemous owner, you never have to touch the animal. In all probability you WILL have to handle it at some point.

[BWSmith]

J, I actually did a LONG post on "not having to touch hots" on another site forum :D

My suggestion would be to try to find someone experienced with hot handling to work with and learn the ropes. There are alot of little tricks and tips that keep us going. It is hard to name them as most of us do them by second nature.

Your options for a first hot are, honestly, scary. Bothrops are the psycho crack heads of the pitvipers. Given the choices, i would usually lean toward rattler (still deadly, but less unpredictable). But in this case, you have another problem. The Rattlesnake anitvenin, CroFab, as not faired well against durissus. This is possibly do to the high concentration of neurotoxins.

In your situation, my best advice is to find another hot keeper to work with for a while. Perhaps joining the Southeastern Hot Herp Society would be benificial to give you access to some of the best "Hot Heads" in the world, and perhaps even in Argentina. And if you choose either or both of these routes, new alternatives may present themselves. It is best to be patient.

[Feed'em All]

Hi again guys, I can't tell you how glad I am reading to you opinions/comments, I tend to skip some details in my post (I dunno why, but it happens). So I tried to explain a little more about my situation.
First of all, the "won't touch thing"...I was talking about, you know, that it won't be the same handling I gave to a constrictor, I know sometimes I will have to "work" with the snake, but I basically meant the "handle for fun" thing.
Secondly, I know the antivenin done here in ARGENTINA is made from vemon of the crotalus durissus terrificus (if there are any interested ppl out there, it is done in the Malbran Institute, a very prestigious instutite) so "it won't be any problem" (notice the ("..").
And the last thing is that I have met a guy in the last year who keep the three species (the 2 bothrops and the crotalus). And he would be happy to "teach me some of his skills". Believe BWSmith, this is a bad place to look for "hot heads"..I wish I live in the US or Canada (germany would be god too ;) ).
So that's why I just asked for some info here...(you ppl seem to be very smart!;) )
anyway, I hope you just continue giving your opinions, It means a lot to me.....thanks!
ps:to Jurliki: hola! porque no me escribes tu email a fitoncho@hotmail.com, seria buenisimo si pudieramos hablar entre españoles (haja! pequeña sorpresa, te topaste con un medio argentino, medio español!) nos vemos.....

Martin

[shaggybill]

As far as handling the snakes, couldnt ya use those handler things ( i dont know what they are called) to get it out of the cage while you work in it? I dont understand why you would actually have to touch it with your hands.

[dead bob]

You cant use tongs or hooks to administer an injection, sexing, helping with a really bad shed, or in rare instances, force feeding. Sometimes you just gotta handle them.

[Boid_22]

Personally, I am going to start out with Bothrops Schlegelii (Eyelash Viper) They are a stout heavy bodied, Arboreal species. Very tricky feeders to get started so i'm told, But i love a challenge.
In my opinion, Neuwiediis Lanceheads
are definately not a good starter. They have a deadly accurate strike at a range of up to 4'. Start with a species that doesn't have such a wide strike range just to be on the "Safe side". JMHO

Cheers......Ed

BTW, Does anyone know where i can find a god caresheet on Sschlegelii..? And please don't say Hotkeepers.com or venomousreptiles.org as i've already checked and neither have anything.

Thanks.

[Gregg M]

Unfortunatly physical contact is a part of the venomous keepers duties....... Giving meds, removing eye caps, Taking ticks off of new imports, and the list can go on....... Ever try taking an eye cap of a gaboon viper that is having a bad hair day???? Not fun...... Just make sure you fully understand what you are about to get your self into....... Keeping hot snakes is nothing to take lightly....... And it is never a question of IF you get bit, it is a question of WHEN you get bit...... And when it happens you need to be ready...... Good luck.....

[BWSmith]

FYI Boid_22, the eyelash viper is Bothriechis schleglii. Granted eyelashes are often considered a good starter hot. In my opinion they actually are not. They start off tiny as babies (usually eating Pinky Parts). They are arboreal which brings a whole new set of problems for the newbie hot keeper. And they can be problem feeders, which is a challenge with a boa, it is VERY RISKY with a hot. Just my opinion, but when talking about a "starter Hot" (if there is such a thing) easeof care should be a MAJOR concern. The more contact you have to have with the snakes the more danger you are in. This is coming from somone who is having to force feed two Pygmy rattlers right now.

[Feed'em All]

Hi, guys! gosh, I love when is not like everybody agree and sound like a chorus "You HAVE to do that and blah blah blah.."anyway, back to the subject...
I am quite sure that bothrops neuwiedi diporus reach 3' in lengh as adult (that's why they call it Small Yarará, with bothrops alternatus being the Big Yarará) so I don't think they have a 4' attack range, right?
Anyway, I love eyelashes, but I won't be able to find any of those here, for sure.
Another thing I 've heard is that neuwiedis have a nastier venom than alternatus, is it right?
As always, thanx and any info would be REALLY appreciated.
PS:Gregg M do you have plans about breeding your beauties???

[BWSmith]

neuwiedi have a subcu LD50 of 14.2
alternatus has a subcu LD50 of 15.8

So alternatus is lightly less toxic. But it is by NO MEANS a mild envenomation. After all the Eastern Diamondbacks LD50 in in between those two.

I dont think anyone is saying "You have to" do anything. We can give facts and experiences and recommendations.

There is no halfway with hots.

[Feed'em All]

BWSmith: Due to my AWFUL english sometimes I write just the opposite of what I intend to...
I meant that I was happy nobody here subestimate me and stuff, and nodody here in as narrow minded to tell me "do thing my way or don't do anything", instead you just give "healthy" advice...
By the way, I ckecked out your website, really cool (I loved the stickers!) and...Is that yellow that tame as he/she(?) seems to be in the pics???
Take care, Martin.

[BWSmith]

thanks, still alot of work to be done. The Yellow Anaconda in the photo gallery really is that tame. She has only bitten twice and both time were because i startled her. Of course, i still have a tooth in my hand from on of her hits :eek:

[Feed'em All]

BWSmith: A friend of mine has a 2 mts Yellow, and it'snasty as it can be!
So, between neuweidi and alterntus is the thing i guess...any particular reason I should choose either one?
Martin.

[BWSmith]

That is like choosing which rope to use when being dragged by a truck. Not a fun choice. ;)

I think you should work with both first, find out which you are most comfortable with. Other factors to consider: Find out how much AV is available and where it is located. Educate yourself on protocol. have all the handling equipment and caging ready PRIOR to getting the snake. Basically prepare.

I think Bothrops sp are about the last group of vipers i would recommend. But you work with what you have. i know a guy who had a Bothrops atrox for a first hot. :eek:

[Feed'em All]

bothrops atrox......:bugout:
anyway, I plan to buy some antivenin and keep it myself from the institute I told you b4, and I am trying to plan a super cool set up where i can place finger-fangs separators, pics will be posted I promess.
So, if basically all bothrops are the same , I got less size=less venom, so I guess it would be a neuwiedi.
BTW, is it much difference between handling a 3' and 5' snake?

[Feed'em All]

i hope you realied this post are just out of curiosity, as I am gonna learn this stuff out of someone working with hots, I guess I am just a bit anxious....(but not too much) hehe

[Gregg M]

Feed'em All,
Breeding project is in its 2nd year for the ones I have now..... My main goal in keeping these snakes is to breed them...... I feel that if you are going to keep something like a venomous snake it should be for a good reason not just because they look cool..... They are not pets and should never be regarded as shuch....... And what better reason could you have to keep something than to coserve the species..... The more captive breeding there is the less reason to go to the country of origin and take them from the wild...... Did you see the pics on www.cybersalvator.com???

[Feed'em All]

Gregg: Cool Site and awesome hots!!!
I completely agree with the importance of captive breeding, but I am a little scared about breeding viviparous, since I 've heard somewhere that sometimes some eggs stay into the mom causing death (It is probably just nonsense, I dunno...)
Besides here in my country it's hard to breed, since we not have herp societys and stuff.
One more time..congrats on your beauties!Rhinos Rules!
Martin.

[Boid_22]

Regarding my post on the first page and your reply. I should have posted both names, You are right, It is now Bothriechis, But the old name is Bothrops...Correct..?
In regards to "Granted they are suppose to be a good first hot". I have been told quite the opposite.
Very small neonates eating only pinkie parts, Tricky feeders as adults as well, And needing daily soaking. Some people think thats a challenge, And for some it is. To me it's just a part of my hobby.
And i agree "If there is such thing as a good first hot". I don't think there is such a thing. You just have to be mentally ready. Aqquiring a hot isn't just something you do because it's "Cool" You can't just go out get the snake, A hook, Some gentle tongs and welding gloves and think you're ready. It a mindset that you hve to be prepared for and shouldn't be taken lightly. It's unfortunte that it is sometimes.

BTW BWSmith, Thanks for the clarification to the proper taxonimy.
Good to keep info as accurate as possible.

Cheers.....Ed

[Gregg M]

Hey Martin,
As long as you give the snakes the proper environment and conditions they should have no problems with births...... There is nothing better than breeding....... When you breed them and the neonates are healthy, that means you did everything right...... It is one of the great rewards you get when you give these animals everything they need to stay healthy and happy........ Good luck Martin and I hope it all works out for you.....

[Feed'em All]

thanks Gregg! Your post really encouraged me to try breeding ovoviviparous spp. I promess the cutest neonate will get your name! :)
Anyway, given all the post above....ANY INFO OF BOTHROPS?? :confused:

Cheers, Martin.

[Feed'em All]

Today was my fisrt day watching the handling and feeding of both bothrops alternatus and b. neuwiedi diporus. All I can say is WOW!
Besides, I got my right index chewed by a Helicops infrateniatus (as I posted b4, those are lil devils!)
Anyway, I just wanna ask you guys (I know, I am askinf for this over and over again) any info of the two species of bothrops.
again, thanks.
Martin.