Albino Sand Boa still not eating. AARGH

[Journeyman]

Surge is not eating and hasn't eaten since we got him a month ago. I put together this timeline to help get some good feedback from other more experienced snake owners. I'd appreciate any help you can offer.....

10/10/2013 5 or 6 month old Albino Sand Boa arrives. New name is Surge. Tank is 12" x 30". I'm told height is irrelevant. Tank is located in our living room. Tank temp was 69F. About 1 1/2" deep Aspen bedding. 1 bowl of water filled about 1/4" deep. 1 cave-like hiding spot. 1 ZooMed Repti-therm under tank heater (8Watts, size: Small, appropriate for 10 gallon tanks) placed under tank under Surge's hide.
10/17 Surge was offered a frozen/thawed (f/t) pinky per breeder's instructions. Breeder said it had been 8 days since last feeding. Put it on small paper plate. Surge shows no interest and quickly hides under Aspen bedding. Threw the pinky out the next morning.
10/18 Sent pics of tank set up to breeder. Breeder approved. Commented that it could be a little warmer. Put on a lid with airholes to trap some more heat. Currently temp is about 72 F. Breeder didn't seem to encourage or discourage the use of a heat lamp. Put Surge and 2nd f/t pinky in small plastic container w/ lid and air holes overnight to try and "force" it to eat. Threw away the pinky (although it did work for our other new snake, Columbian Rainbow Boa, in adjacent tank)
10/27 Can't remember exact date, but probably tried feeding Surge another Pinky on a plate. Left it overnight. Threw out the pinky in the morning.
10/28 Sent picture of Surge's top side and bottom side/belly to breeder upon his request. (SEE ATTACHED PHOTO) Never got a response. Not sure what he was looking for.
10/28 Posted "How long without eating before I become concerned?" on SSNAKESS.com forum. Feedback indicated that Surge may be stressed. Member Formica suggested ditching the separate feeding container and leave him unbothered for 4-5 days. Member CKSandboas said not to be too concerned and leave Surge alone for a week then refeed. So we didn't touch or disturb Surge or his tank for about a week.
11/3 Fed another frozen/thawed pinky to Surge on a plate. Dug him out of Aspen bedding to make sure he saw the pinky. He showed little interest and reburied himself.
11/8 Offered Surge a f/t pinky. Unburied him. He showed little interest and reburied himself.
11/9 Surge may be shedding?! He started looking "pruny/wrinkly". I HOPE HE IS NOT DEHYDRATED. I laid him in his water bowl just to make sure he knew it was there. I've never seen him explore the water bowl because he spends 100% of his time under the Aspen. He quickly retreated and hid.
11/10 Altered lid to fit a 75W bulb so we could turn bulb on for about 1-2 hours each evening (SEE ATTACHED PHOTOS). Ambient room temp is about 68. Tank hot side gets up to about 90 F with lamp. Surge still prefers to hide under water bowl on the cooler side of the tank. He never comes out to sunbathe though......
11/12 Still wrinkly. Skin is starting to peel away near his head. His eyes don't appear to be cloudy like I had read.
11/13 Posting on SSNAKESS.com asking for feedback

Is Surge in any danger? I'm wondering if I am screwing something up.

[CK SandBoas]

I keep all my Kenyans with a hot spot of 95-96, with a cool side of 78-80. This has worked very well for me, and many of my friends who are breeders. When you offer him food, after he finishes shedding, you are going to have to get him interested in grabbing and coiling the prey item. Make sure the item is nice and hot, use a pair of hemostats or feeding tongs, and gently rub the pinky over the sand boas tail, moving it slowly towards his head. You want to make these movements deliberate and not herky jerky, as not to frighten your sand boa. Once he grabs and coils the pinky, give it a tug a few times; to make it look like its a live prey item struggling....

[Journeyman]

CK,
Do you attach a thermometer to the walls close to the bedding like I do in my pics?

I wasn't sure if others were putting their thermometers actually under the bedding or using "probes" that ran from under the bedding up to an electronic thermometer that may be attached to the wall.

What is your heat source? I don't know how I'd get the heat up to over 90 all the time without a full time heat lamp or possibly a 2nd heating pad under the tank.

I'll do whatever makes him happy, but this is all new to me.

[CK SandBoas]

CK,
Do you attach a thermometer to the walls close to the bedding like I do in my pics?

I wasn't sure if others were putting their thermometers actually under the bedding or using "probes" that ran from under the bedding up to an electronic thermometer that may be attached to the wall.

What is your heat source? I don't know how I'd get the heat up to over 90 all the time without a full time heat lamp or possibly a 2nd heating pad under the tank.

I'll do whatever makes him happy, but this is all new to me.

I actually have my heat pads attached to a thermostat, in which I can regulate the temps. Using an undertank heat pad without a thermostat attached to it is asking for trouble, as they can malfunction and overheat quite quickly.

I would also see about bumping up your ambient room temps. I keep my room at about 77-78, 68-69 may be a bit too cool. Another thing, the pinky may be too small for a 6 month old, try bumping it up to a peach fuzzie or even a fuzzie. My 3 and 4 month old babies have taken their first peach fuzzies, so a 6 month old should have no problem with it.

[MizCandice]

Is it possable for you to try a live rat fuzzy? it could last a couple days live and personally I use a small container to feed difficult eatters as apposed to leaving them in the tank.. it eliminates distractions and helps to ensure he knows its there , the smell and movement is "usually " enough to have them interested when they have no where else to retreat. I agree on the above replies to bump up the ambient temps too, Good luck and keep us posted!

[wrecker45]

I switch to night heat bulbs when the sun goes down.

[Journeyman]

I switch to night heat bulbs when the sun goes down.
Wrecker, what temps do you maintain during the day? night?
What is the longest one of your snakes has gone without eating? How often do your snakes usually go between feedings?
thx.

[Journeyman]

Is it possable for you to try a live rat fuzzy? it could last a couple days live and personally I use a small container to feed difficult eatters as apposed to leaving them in the tank.. it eliminates distractions and helps to ensure he knows its there , the smell and movement is "usually " enough to have them interested when they have no where else to retreat. I agree on the above replies to bump up the ambient temps too, Good luck and keep us posted!
MizCandice, I'm inclined to stick with thawed mice because it seems more convenient and appears to work for plenty of snake owners. Do you use live food? if so, do you buy it locally or online? I'm working on raising the temp in the tank. It confuses me that so many people recommend raising the temperature, yet Surge is always buried on the cooler side of his tank which is about 72 F. I'm starting to think that Surge isn't smart enough to go toward the heat.

[Journeyman]

I actually have my heat pads attached to a thermostat, in which I can regulate the temps. Using an undertank heat pad without a thermostat attached to it is asking for trouble, as they can malfunction and overheat quite quickly.

I would also see about bumping up your ambient room temps. I keep my room at about 77-78, 68-69 may be a bit too cool. Another thing, the pinky may be too small for a 6 month old, try bumping it up to a peach fuzzie or even a fuzzie. My 3 and 4 month old babies have taken their first peach fuzzies, so a 6 month old should have no problem with it.

Are your snakes in a closet or do you keep your whole house at 78? I'd be sweating all day :) I do have fuzzies for our other, bigger snake (Rainbow boa) but they seem HUGE. I apparently have no idea what a snake likes because I can't imagine Surge being able to eat a fuzzy. Our Petco and Petsmart don't stock peach fuzzies unfortunately. Common sense tells me that if a snake is hungry, it will eat anything put in front of it, but plenty of people have said they are disinterested in smaller mice. I guess I will try the bigger fuzzy.
Do you buy your mice online or locally? I was just comparing prices at a few sites.

[formica]

by digging him out of his substrate, to 'show' him the food, you are simply stressing him out.



put the food on the plate, then cover the enclosure and leave it over night without any disturbance whatsoever.

infact I'd keep his enclosure covered most of the time, dont handle or disturb him except to change water and spot clean, and leave food, when he has started feeding properly, then you can start handling, leave the cover off the enclosure for longer and longer every few days....if he stops eating again, then start again, keep him covered.

I think he needs a diffrent enclosure tbh, aspen shavings allow allot of light thru, and so does glass, he may well feel as if he's just sitting out in the open with nowhere to escape to - get him in a wooden or plastic enclosure, with some coco/coir as substrate, so he can get inside the substrate and feel secure in the dark



re the thermometer - one stuck to the glass cannot tell you how hot his basking area is, you need a digital thermometer with a probe, put the probe next to your thermostat probe above the heat mat, and adjust as needed.

[CK SandBoas]

Are your snakes in a closet or do you keep your whole house at 78? I'd be sweating all day :) I do have fuzzies for our other, bigger snake (Rainbow boa) but they seem HUGE. I apparently have no idea what a snake likes because I can't imagine Surge being able to eat a fuzzy. Our Petco and Petsmart don't stock peach fuzzies unfortunately. Common sense tells me that if a snake is hungry, it will eat anything put in front of it, but plenty of people have said they are disinterested in smaller mice. I guess I will try the bigger fuzzy.
Do you buy your mice online or locally? I was just comparing prices at a few sites.

My snakes are in a separate room, and we actually keep our whole house at 78 and its quite comfy...I buy all my rodents online,in bulk,through RodentPro. Sand Boas can eat larger prey than most think they can.

Another possibility why your sand boa is not eating is if he's a male he may be interested in breeding. Males mature faster than females, so even though he is only 6 months old, it is a possibility.

And in my opinion, your setup is fine;aspen works fine for sand boas, its what I use with all mine. Maybe add another hide, on the cool side. Do not change to a wooden enclosure....you could also cover three sides of the enclosure to give your sand boa a sense of security.

Do not panic, I know its stressful when an animal is not eating for you, but he will eat when he's good and ready. My adult males usually go off feed for about 6 months for breeding season. If you can, buy a digital kitchen scale, so you can keep track of any weight loss.

[formica]

Do not change to a wooden enclosure

can you qualify this please, there is a list of reasons as long as my arm, for why glass is not the best material for snake enclosures - but if there is a specific reason why it is good for Sand Boa's, i'd like to know!

[MizCandice]

MizCandice, I'm inclined to stick with thawed mice because it seems more convenient and appears to work for plenty of snake owners. Do you use live food? if so, do you buy it locally or online? I'm working on raising the temp in the tank. It confuses me that so many people recommend raising the temperature, yet Surge is always buried on the cooler side of his tank which is about 72 F. I'm starting to think that Surge isn't smart enough to go toward the heat.

I have some that take the f/t no problem and others that absolutely refuse still. While it may seem like everyone feeds f/t, trust me there are so many snakes that just outright refuse. As for my personal acquisitions, I do buy local ( up to a 30 mile drive) and while it can be a pain in the butt I do not want my hatchlings going to long without a meal so for now I cave, and ill get them enough for the current meal as well as keep some extras for the next to make it easier on the gas/mileage,( a reason weanlings are nice, they arent eatting each other and can be kept on rat pellets and grain/veggies for a week or so without much hassel)... when they are over 200G and have more fat stores I can try to be more stubborn and wait them out but at this point my goal is to keep them eatting. Ideally when you have them eatting regularly you can begin to introduce F/T again but since you asked for suggestions I shared my personal expreiences. :elvis: hope they start to eat for you... my ghost ball is still being a lil butthead no matter what I offer her aswell so I feel your pain.

[CK SandBoas]

can you qualify this please, there is a list of reasons as long as my arm, for why glass is not the best material for snake enclosures - but if there is a specific reason why it is good for Sand Boa's, i'd like to know!

You know, I've been keeping my sand boas in glass enclosures and I keep some in plastic tubs in a rack system, and I've had no problems keeping the correct temps and humidity required. And before this turns into another pissing contest, which I've noticed you are so g ood at instigating, I will end it here. Oh, and just to let you know; you truly are a jackass...

[formica]

You know, I've been keeping my sand boas in glass enclosures and I keep some in plastic tubs in a rack system, and I've had no problems keeping the correct temps and humidity required. And before this turns into another pissing contest, which I've noticed you are so g ood at instigating, I will end it here. Oh, and just to let you know; you truly are a jackass...

why take my question as some kind of personal attack and then just be rude? I was asking due to the fact that I intend on keeping sand boa's next year, and thought it was a reasonable question to ask, given that I have a stack of glass enclosures which I no longer use, for the reasons I alluded to in my previous post.

[CK SandBoas]

why take my question as some kind of personal attack and then just be rude? I was asking due to the fact that I intend on keeping sand boa's next year, and thought it was a reasonable question to ask, given that I have a stack of glass enclosures which I no longer use, for the reasons I alluded to in my previous post.

Glass enclosures can be used, with the proper modifications. I've been keeping my adult fenales in them, along a couple of my smaller adult males. The tops are covered with lexan, cut specifically to fit the tops. To say that they cannot be used or are not proper setups for Sand Boas, when you don't even keep the species, is all hearsay. I apologize for my rudeness, but when the setup that the OP has will work, I just don't see the need to change it. As ive said, it may just be that his sand boa is sexually mature, and looking to breed.

4 weeks is nothing to be concerned about, as long as the sand boa is maintaining a healthy weight. When the Sand Boa is hungry, he'll eat. Keep an eye out for his head above the surface of the aspen, that usually means he's looking for food.


And again, to Formica, I apologize for my rudeness :)

[DeadlyDesires]

ho wmuch humidity should they have?

[CK SandBoas]

ho wmuch humidity should they have?

60 percent humidity allows for mine to have perfect sheds...I usually keep a humid hide filled with moist spaghnum moss on the hot spot to achieve this..

[DeadlyDesires]

ok cool.. they will probably have custom enclosures eventually as i like building my enclosure and i've been looking into purchasing some plastic ones too. like the boaphiles but not as big.

[Journeyman]

Thank you CK, Formica, MizCandice, and Wrecker for reading my posts and the feedback. I've followed advice that seemed to be substantiated by other members/research and may still act on more of the advice in the near future (ie: thermostatically controlled heat mat and light; thermostat probe under heat lamp; live mice; weighing with digital scale). here is an update:

11/14 Wrapped all 4 walls with black paper to block about 95% of all ambient light.
11/15 removed white incandescent bulb. replaced with red bulb. Bulb is on about 12 hours/day. off at night. temp varies from 80 on cool side to 100 on hot side. He seems to prefer the middle of tank or cooler side of tank.
11/17 Concerned that his shedding has progressed. placed his whole body in warm water about 1/2" deep. he stayed in it for about 3 minutes. May have been swallowing it. Do they actually drink water? I guess I've never seen them do that in pictures or on tv so it seems odd. I"m waiting for the shedding to stop before attempting another feeding. We've limited our digging him up to about every other day just to look at him and see if he is still alive. He moves very slowly the few times I've picked him up. He moves a little faster after I've held him for a minute. I took the picks of his wrinkles/shedding, put him in the water bowl, and put him back in tank. he crawled back under the bedding.

Thanks for reading. DOES HIS SHEDDING PICTURE SEEM NORMAL/ACCEPTABLE (he started peeling about 6 days ago)?

[DeadlyDesires]

no the shedding doesn't look normal.. hes is deff having a rough shed.. what is the humidity at in your tank? it should be around 50% i believe personally i'd try to bump it up a little higher during shedding.

[CK SandBoas]

Thank you CK, Formica, MizCandice, and Wrecker for reading my posts and the feedback. I've followed advice that seemed to be substantiated by other members/research and may still act on more of the advice in the near future (ie: thermostatically controlled heat mat and light; thermostat probe under heat lamp; live mice; weighing with digital scale). here is an update:

11/14 Wrapped all 4 walls with black paper to block about 95% of all ambient light.
11/15 removed white incandescent bulb. replaced with red bulb. Bulb is on about 12 hours/day. off at night. temp varies from 80 on cool side to 100 on hot side. He seems to prefer the middle of tank or cooler side of tank.
11/17 Concerned that his shedding has progressed. placed his whole body in warm water about 1/2" deep. he stayed in it for about 3 minutes. May have been swallowing it. Do they actually drink water? I guess I've never seen them do that in pictures or on tv so it seems odd. I"m waiting for the shedding to stop before attempting another feeding. We've limited our digging him up to about every other day just to look at him and see if he is still alive. He moves very slowly the few times I've picked him up. He moves a little faster after I've held him for a minute. I took the picks of his wrinkles/shedding, put him in the water bowl, and put him back in tank. he crawled back under the bedding.

Thanks for reading. DOES HIS SHEDDING PICTURE SEEM NORMAL/ACCEPTABLE (he started peeling about 6 days ago)?

He definitely should have finished shedding by now. you are going to want to either place him in a deli cup with either damp paper towels or damp spaghnum moss, and leave him in it, or maybe it's even better to assist the shed off with a wet q-tip. You are going to want to get that shed off sooner rather than later, considering the amount of time it's been. If you use the q-tip method, make sure you have a bowl of warm water as well, to keep wetting the q-tip with. Gently rub off the shed with the q-tip, working from the head, down to the tail. Make sure you also work around the body, meaning go around the diameter of the body as you help the shed come off.