Snakebite treatment

[shaggybill]

Hey guys.

I'm new here and I have a question somebody here might know.

I've been looking all over the internet trying to find out how to deal with venomous snakebites if help is MORE than a few hours away. Some websites say suck the wound, some say NEVER suck it in any situation blah blah blah.

I'm mainly talking about snakes like Copperheads, Cottonmouths, and rattlesnakes, not mambas and cobras.

Anybody here have an idea of what is proper?

[Matt]

AHHHHHH, never never never never suck the bite!!!
I cant belive there is still websites out there with that misinformation!
anyways, sucking is just going to waste valueable time and do absolutely nothing for you.

If you are talking coppers, cottons, and rattlesnakes, than it doesnt really matter all that much if help is 2-3 hours away....as long as you have a plan and can leave immediately. However, this wont work with some elapids.

First, have a plan...know which hospital you have to go to, and have directions and make sure they carry the antivenin. This is important, you dont wanna go to the hospital and find out they dont carry the antivenin. For those species, you need CroFab antivenin, most large US and some Canadian hospitals carry it.

Next, (and this is extreamly important for you), never handle the hot snakes when someone else isnt around. If you have a 2 hour drive to make, you may not make it alone, and you want someone else to drive you, cause there is a chance you might pass out, or if you are bit by a copperhead, you will be in extruciating pain.

Basically, all you have to do if bitten by one of those species, is call the hospital, let them know what happened and that you are on your way, and then just grab the other person and tell them to drive to the hospital.
Get there asap, without driving like a madman, it wont do any good if you get in an accident on the way!

Lastly, do not, do not, do not, put on a turniquette. This will just cut off your circulation and increase the chances of losing your whole arm. This would be different if you got bit by a highly neurotoxic snake like a black mamba, but in the case of the species you mentioned, you do not need a turniquette, and in my opinion you will do much more harm then good.

sorry this was so long, hope i touched on everything!

[Weather1]

Best treatment is not to get bit. Sorry unable to help.

[shaggybill]

Thanks for your help. But going back to the sucking thing for just a moment. If sucking doesnt help, then what good is the Sawyer Extractor?

[BWSmith]

The Sawyer Extractor has one good feature. If someone is bitten, they will generally calm down if they THINK they are being treated. it should by no means slow your arrival to the hospital, but it tends to calm down people in transit and this helps slow the spread of venom.

turniquette is not a good idea. But the term "Rattler" has many species. A primarily hemotoxic species such as and atrox is the "typical' Rattlesnake. But what about C scutulatus, C h atricaudatus, C adamanteus? These all have a large concentration of neurotoxins. I recently saw a severe adamanteus envenomation which manifested NO necrosis! In highly neurotoxic snakes, a constrictive bandage (not a turniquette) is often advised.

Unfortunately, I am at work and cannot get away with really long posts :) In fact it has taken over an hour to get this far. But basically, every snake's venom is different and we never know how a human body is going to react to it. I keep an Epi Pen and H1 and H2 blockers with me in the hot room and in the field. I also keep an ACE bandage in case I feel I need a constrictive bandage. There is no 100% guaranteed treatment. That being said, for general purposes, Matt's summary is fairly accurate. Unless you know the trends of specific species int hat area, the best snakebiite kit is a car key and a car.

:et the bite freebleed, elevate the limb, treat for shock, stay calm.

Most vipers put venom deep enough that cut and suck do nothing. And actually cause more nerve damage. I could go on for hours, but I digress.

[Matt]

sorry, i should have said that about the ACE bandage, much better than a turniquette if the snake is highly neurotoxic, thanks for adding that BW.

[shaggybill]

Ahh.... Another question pops up. Some say elevate the arm, others say keep it below the heart. Which is right?

Also, I think I read somewhere that you should bandage up the entire arm (if thats where you are bitten). Is that proper? And what is Epi Pen and H1 and H2 blockers, is that the sun screen stuff? What are they good for?

On other thing. What is (are) a necrosis?

Thanks for your help here.....

[Matt]

necrosis just means the destruction of tissue by the venom.
cottonmouths are highly necrotic....which means their venom will tend to destroy more tissue.

I'll let BWSmith field the rest of your questions, he can probably do it better than i can!

[BWSmith]

Keep the limb below the heart. You dont want the venom rushing to your torso. It can do alot more damage there.

Epipen is a portable shot of epinephrine. Many people are allergic to venom (just like bees). The result of an allergy is anaphalaxic Shock. This can kill you. The epinephrine helps with anaphalaxis. Coincidently, many people are allergic to the antivenin as well (at least before CroFab). Epi helps with this too. basically, H1 and H2 blockers are antihistimines, again to help prevent allergic reactions. it may sound petty compared to venom running through your blood, but it can kill you quicker than the venom sometimes.


Ona side note, cottons are not only notorious for necrosis, but int he wild they eat ANYTHING. Gangrene is another problem associated with cottons.

[shaggybill]

Hey, thanks for your help here guys. I'm somewhat new at this and I'm trying to learn as much as possible.

Forgive my ignorance, but are H1 and H2 shots?

Also, I've heard that Crofab is for snakebites such as the copperhead, cottons, and rattlers. What kind of anti-venom would be appropriate for corals? I've heard of an anti-venom called Wyeth, at least I think it was an anti-venom, what is it for?

Just one other thing. I'm allergic to bees. Could this possibly mean that IF I were to ever get bitten by a hot, I would have a worse reaction than people who aren't allergic.

Thanks

[BWSmith]

Coral snake AV is Wyeth Fulvius. GOOD NEWS!!! They don't make it anymore!!! not enough people got bit. Wyeth Crotalidae Polyvalent Antivenin was the predecessor to CroFab. It had a highrate of Serum Sickness (allergy).

As far as the bees. I am not aware of any correlation between bee allergies and snake venom allergies. But if you allergic to bees, you should already have an EpiPen in case you get stung.

There is also evidence that hot keepers "become" allergic to snake venom from the constant exposure of microscopic venom particles in the air.

[shaggybill]

LOL. Oh yeah, thats IS good news! What kind of treatment do people get now if they get bitten? Seems like there would be at least a small number of people who need coral snake anti-venom...

I am allergic to bees, but I have never even heard of this EpiPen stuff. Maybe I'm not allergic enough or something. Maybe I should look into it.


I've also been reading up on antivenoms and snakebite treatment at emedicine.com. Stuffs pretty interesting...

Now if I only lived in a place where this info might be useful to have...

[Matt]

even though its not produced anymore, there still is some wyeth out there albeit rare.
It really depends on which micrurus you are dealing with.

Bioclon Coralmyn (for all mexican and central american)
Costa Rica anti-coral poly (for all northern south american)

if its a U.S. species and Wyeth isnt available, I would say the Bioclon is your best bet! It wasnt made for U.S. species, but I dont think at this point, we have anything better!

[billherricks]

I recently moved from ky and alot of the stuff you were told is true. fear(of the actual bite)will increase your heart rate wich will speed the venom through your system,also with the sucking thing,the thought you are being treated will calm you (i know,embarassing story, ill never tell)and lastly most rural comunities (way deep country) have a snakebite unit,im not kidding,check and know the number. just stating an opinion,im in no way an expert

[shaggybill]

Ok, I was at a medical site lately and this is what they said to do. The one in question is that last one.

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-The bitten area should be bleed for 15-30 secs.

-Clean the wound and disinfect the area with Betadine, or even with any other antiseptic agent that is available. It can even be cleaned with water.

-If bite is on hand, finger, foot , wrap the leg or the arm with crepe bandage distal to the knee or elbow joint and immobilse the limb. The wrapping should not be very tight, just enough with pulsations of the limb present.

-To leave the fang marks area open. Apply hard direct pressure over bite using a gauze pad.

-Immobilize bitten extremity, using a splint if available.

-If possible, try and keep bitten extremity at body level, when the person is lying. Raising it can cause venom to travel into the body. Holding it down, can increase swelling.

-Go to nearest hospital or medical facility as soon as possible

-If possible try to identify the snake and if possible kill and take the snake along to the hospital.

-Free vertical incisions may be made through fang marks followed by thorough sucking with breast pump or mouth.
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What do you guys think about the last one?

[BWSmith]

i have seen that antiquated site. Like FDA or soemthing?

[shaggybill]

Now I dont remember what the website was. It was a wierd name though.

Heres something else I found. I've heard alot of people disapprove of the stun gun method of treating snakebites, but this doctor swears up and down that it works. Its for spider bites as well as snakes.

What is you guys take on it.

http://www.sabramsmd.com/brs/brs_stungun_protocol.html

[Gregg M]

I do not think this treatment holds any value when it comes to snake bite....... I would not even waste the time....... It could cost you your life by taking the time to do this...... I do not think this doctor would be willing to take a bite from a cobra or a gaboon viper to test this....... If you ask me, who ever this was tested on most likely did not get a serious evenomation to begin with...... You could have pissed on the bite and cured it:D .........

[J_Riley]

I also don't agree with killing the snake - that is a good way for someone else to get bit

[BWSmith]

The theory behind the stungun is that the electric shock will break down the venom protien strains thus rendering it harmless. This is simply not true.

[BWSmith]

And I agree with Riley. Trying to kill the snake is how many people get bit inthe first place

"Hey Bubba, watch this!"