Does anyone hibernate their Sav?

[formica]

Would love to hear from experienced keeps if you do or dont, doesnt matter!

Reason is, I do it to keep ant colonies healthy, its an important peroid of their lifespan, lots of physiological things go in side the colony and individual ants and I am wondering how important Hibernation is for a Sav.

2 areas which i feel might be an important for hibernation phases are:

DNA repair, when allot of creatures fast or hibernate, their bodies switch modes, same thing happens in humans, but because of our metabolism we can only manage short periods, as long as we have fat and muscle tissue to use as engery, once that runs out, we die. Sav, comparatively has a slow metabolism (faster than most reptiles, but still slow) - also importantly, a savs metabolism slows down when it hibernates, which means it can repair DNA, and its body tissues for a much longer, and because its stored up 3months of energy it wont die before the rains come. (i imagine weaker Savs dont make it out tbh)

A Sav's apititie is enormous, and I think that this might be a physiological change in the Sav, because of its rainy season enviromet (''optimal conditions'') - with no hibernation physiology changes, there may be damage being done, very slowly

Lastly, a Sav has evolved to live in a Savanna, with seasons which dictate its size at full adulthood, what, if any, are the effects of providing 365 rainy season, apart from size; have Savs bones evolved to carry their weight at that size, their muscles to pull larger bones, immune systems? heart and internal organs?

Activity isnt an issue for me, if its going to give it some benefit and thats what I want to know i guess!

Also if anyone hibernates Savs, what BMI do you aim when starting?

[varanus_mad]

savs Dont hibernate they aestivate slightly different to hibernation and mo i could not recommend trying it in a captive environment its caused by a prolonged dry period how you would acheive that on such a small scale without causing a sav permanent damage i Dont know the only varanids i know where a hibernation period is a neccesitys griseus.

some keepers drop all temps by 10f or so for a few months to stimulate breeding as of yet therw is no evidence to suggest aestivating savs is a good idea.

albigs occasionally fast over winter and i kmow of 3/4 pairs that do it roughly the same time of year.

[Pirarucu]

Savannahs do not really hibernate, they are still fully conscious. They just stop spending lots of time outside of their burrows, to conserve moisture. It's worth noting that the amount of time spent in this state is dictated by their environment, with months of difference existing between those in more humid versus those in less humid areas. In the extreme southeastern part of their range, it may be that they do not do it at all or if they do, it would be for a very short period of time, as it is then starting to border on the Congo.

[formica]

ok they aestivate, there metabolism still drops, which means there are chemical changes going on which may or may not be important to the Savs lifecycle

it would good to know the minimum amount of time they hibernate in the wild, and if they survive in good condition and within normal distribution numbers when they do not hibernate at all, might be that they thrive

as for hibernation enclosure - off the top of my hdead - well I would imagine some kind of cold water tank under the soil, filled with clay balls or something, layer on 6ft of soil for him to burrow as normal, and then change the heat lamp during a hibernation phase to something to bring the surface tempreture right up, IR from heaters doesnt travel very far thru soil, so if his burrow is deep enough his tempreture can be monitored and adjusted without worrying to much about the heater above.

keep the water tank filed up so that it absorbs into his burrow all the time, and keeps him humid , adjusting as needed. then replace the sealed ceiling for humdity with a strong wire mesh and perhaps extraction, so that the enclosure remains dry and hot above the burrow, but deep inside his burrow he's as comfortable as it he needs but without eating tons of food he normally wouldnt

building an enclosure of 6ft of soil, and a water tank, and open area to feed and explore is quite a monumental task tho lol

i'm a total noobie at Sav's, so I'm not making any assumptions on wether it has to be done, but as i just have a hatchling now, i may deciede, resources and properly regulated enclosure permitting, to put him into hibernation for a while. once I have researched more, I certainly wouldnt start doing it with him after more than 1 year life.

[murrindindi]

Hi, there is no evidence in the areas this species has been studied that they brumate (aestivate) at all, on the contrary, Daniel Bennett found signs around burrow entrances of movement, but he`s not yet discovered whether it`s just to bask, explore their surroundings, take food, etc (Daniel Bennett, pers. comm.).
Personally I would not make a deliberate attempt to brumate these animals in captivity, 365 days a year of proper support is known to benefit them (not that we have many longterm examples to show), but that`s because not many keepers to date have managed to offer said support. Hopefully we are seeing some signs that the captive husbandry is changing for the better, albiet slowly!

[nepoez]

I read savs don't hibernate. But a friend of a friend of mine has a tegu and he puts him in a refrigerator for 4 months each year and it seems to work for him.

[smy_749]

I read savs don't hibernate. But a friend of a friend of mine has a tegu and he puts him in a refrigerator for 4 months each year and it seems to work for him.

......a refrigerator? A working, on fridge? :wacky:

About the griseus thing, I don't know much about the other geographic ranges, but I've been to the areas where griseus are found. Summer surface temps can be upwards of 150 (maybe higher) and it snows in the winter ocassionally. Its a SERIOUS fluctuation in temps. I've never been somewhere hotter other than the dead sea which is close to their geographic range as well

[varanus_mad]

ok they aestivate, there metabolism still drops, which means there are chemical changes going on which may or may not be important to the Savs lifecycle

it would good to know the minimum amount of time they hibernate in the wild, and if they survive in good condition and within normal distribution numbers when they do not hibernate at all, might be that they thrive

as for hibernation enclosure - off the top of my hdead - well I would imagine some kind of cold water tank under the soil, filled with clay balls or something, layer on 6ft of soil for him to burrow as normal, and then change the heat lamp during a hibernation phase to something to bring the surface tempreture right up, IR from heaters doesnt travel very far thru soil, so if his burrow is deep enough his tempreture can be monitored and adjusted without worrying to much about the heater above.

keep the water tank filed up so that it absorbs into his burrow all the time, and keeps him humid , adjusting as needed. then replace the sealed ceiling for humdity with a strong wire mesh and perhaps extraction, so that the enclosure remains dry and hot above the burrow, but deep inside his burrow he's as comfortable as it he needs but without eating tons of food he normally wouldnt

building an enclosure of 6ft of soil, and a water tank, and open area to feed and explore is quite a monumental task tho lol

i'm a total noobie at Sav's, so I'm not making any assumptions on wether it has to be done, but as i just have a hatchling now, i may deciede, resources and properly regulated enclosure permitting, to put him into hibernation for a while. once I have researched more, I certainly wouldnt start doing it with him after more than 1 year life.

Surface temperatures drop during the dry season quite possibly you should forget this part of sav husbandry for now.

As i stated if you want to include a winter cooling period dropping the temps across the board by 10f or so then theres no harm in doing that.

[varanus_mad]

......a refrigerator? A working, on fridge? :wacky:

About the griseus thing, I don't know much about the other geographic ranges, but I've been to the areas where griseus are found. Summer surface temps can be upwards of 150 (maybe higher) and it snows in the winter ocassionally. Its a SERIOUS fluctuation in temps. I've never been somewhere hotter other than the dead sea which is close to their geographic range as well


literally hell in my opinion.

[smy_749]

Yea its no bueno. Feels like a hair drier blowing in your face all day, and going from air conditioning to outdoors is the same feeling you get when you open an oven with your face infront of it lol

[murrindindi]

Yea its no bueno. Feels like a hair drier blowing in your face all day, and going from air conditioning to outdoors is the same feeling you get when you open an oven with your face infront of it lol


Hi, that sounds very much like the U.K.... (Sort of)....:no:

[smy_749]

Hi, that sounds very much like the U.K.... (Sort of)....:no:

lol yea from what I hear its always nice and sunny there....

[nepoez]

Canada is even better :(

[formica]

Surface temperatures drop during the dry season quite possibly you should forget this part of sav husbandry for now.

As i stated if you want to include a winter cooling period dropping the temps across the board by 10f or so then theres no harm in doing that.

winter cooling period? I was not aware there was one, temps fall during rainey season, according to the Met Office (center for weather) and various other sources, the temps are pretty stable between 70-90F all year round, highest during dry season, the 'hibernation' phase (Aestative phase) is because temps go up, and there is no water, vegitation growth, and therefore there are no insects to eat.

I have to admit i'm slightly confused by the lack of consideration for this phase of a savanna monitors life, I cannot believe it is not important to their physiology - obviously it requires different husbandry, and careful monitoring (no pun intended) thru out the phase, aswell as an understanding of the kind of fat levels a sav needs before it goes into aesetive state, but i dont see why it cant, or perhaps, why it shouldnt, be done.

We need numbers and research to back up both sides of the argument and come to a conclusion, because I cant be persuaded by presumption or speculation that this isnt an imortant issue

Water reduces in Ghana around August, give or take a month I guess for insect populations to fall rapidly once the last grasses have seeded and died - so I have 3 months to get more info before I decide.

Ghana: Geography, Location, weather etc (http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/geography/climate.php)

Interestingly the data below seems to indicate that Ghana consists of much drier air than I had thought having reads posts on here, infact only the south-west is humid; Ghana often being quoted as having the large populations

[formica]

why do i think this is so important?

Recent studies have shown that Human dna repair is activated when we fast for at least 48-72hrs. It is also known that fasting for long periods improves many aspects of our well being, physical-phsyiological changes occour, aswell as psychological benefits, and this would fit with the way we originally evolved, we didnt have super-stores to feed us when ever we felt like it, we ate what we could catch, or was available, and our bodies adapted to use the time when food is scare, to repair our DNA

[smy_749]

why do i think this is so important?

Recent studies have shown that Human dna repair is activated when we fast for at least 48-72hrs. It is also known that fasting for long periods improves many aspects of our well being, physical-phsyiological changes occour, aswell as psychological benefits, and this would fit with the way we originally evolved, we didnt have super-stores to feed us when ever we felt like it, we ate what we could catch, or was available, and our bodies adapted to use the time when food is scare, to repair our DNA

I'm muslim and we fast sunrise to sunset for a month each year. Been doing it since I was young, maybe all that DNA repair is why I'm so handsome and physically fit ;) lollllll

[formica]

I'm muslim and we fast sunrise to sunset for a month each year. Been doing it since I was young, maybe all that DNA repair is why I'm so handsome and physically fit ;) lollllll

lol :P

unfortunetly it doesnt kick in if you only fast sunrise-sunset, needs to be a full 48hrs+

[smy_749]

In a few years they will discover that it only needs to be 10 + proving my theory...just wait hah

[murrindindi]

winter cooling period? I was not aware there was one, temps fall during rainey season, according to the Met Office (center for weather) and various other sources, the temps are pretty stable between 70-90F all year round, highest during dry season, the 'hibernation' phase (Aestative phase) is because temps go up, and there is no water, vegitation growth, and therefore there are no insects to eat.

I have to admit i'm slightly confused by the lack of consideration for this phase of a savanna monitors life, I cannot believe it is not important to their physiology - obviously it requires different husbandry, and careful monitoring (no pun intended) thru out the phase, aswell as an understanding of the kind of fat levels a sav needs before it goes into aesetive state, but i dont see why it cant, or perhaps, why it shouldnt, be done.

We need numbers and research to back up both sides of the argument and come to a conclusion, because I cant be persuaded by presumption or speculation that this isnt an imortant issue

Water reduces in Ghana around August, give or take a month I guess for insect populations to fall rapidly once the last grasses have seeded and died - so I have 3 months to get more info before I decide.

Ghana: Geography, Location, weather etc (http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/geography/climate.php)

Interestingly the data below seems to indicate that Ghana consists of much drier air than I had thought having reads posts on here, infact only the south-west is humid; Ghana often being quoted as having the large populations


Hi, first I need you to know that I`m not criticising what you say, I`m just asking questions to understand why you say/think these things.
Who told you/where have you seen evidence of why they lessen activity during the dry season in some parts of their range? They do NOT only feed on insects, they are NOT brumating, so why would forcing them to do that in captivity be beneficial to them (it obviously isn`t in the wild, or they would do it)!?

[formica]

Hi, first I need you to know that I`m not criticising what you say, I`m just asking questions to understand why you say/think these things.
Who told you/where have you seen evidence of why they lessen activity during the dry season in some parts of their range? They do NOT only feed on insects, they are NOT brumating, so why would forcing them to do that in captivity be beneficial to them (it obviously isn`t in the wild, or they would do it)!?

its part of virtually every source I have come across while looking into savanna monitors; hibernating ants, not feeding them, is beneficial if they require a dormant or more reduced time of activity and availability of food phase. It has also been shown to be beneficial to humans. So why not Savs, their evolution has been shaped by dry/wet seasons each year

If you are suggesting that Savanna monitors do not in any way enter a dormant peroid with low food intake and/or activity - then perhaps you are questioning the established natural sciences?

its not a question of wether or not they become dormant in the dry season, its a question of how important is that time to them, on health and general well being grounds, it might not be that important, then again it might be the diffrence between living a health life and suffering a painful deficiency in its physiology all its life, not suggesting it does, its what i'm trying to find out.

[infernalis]

and I commend you for your inquisitiveness.

[murrindindi]

its part of virtually every source I have come across while looking into savanna monitors; hibernating ants, not feeding them, is beneficial if they require a dormant or more reduced time of activity and availability of food phase. It has also been shown to be beneficial to humans. So why not Savs, their evolution has been shaped by dry/wet seasons each year

If you are suggesting that Savanna monitors do not in any way enter a dormant peroid with low food intake and/or activity - then perhaps you are questioning the established natural sciences?

its not a question of wether or not they become dormant in the dry season, its a question of how important is that time to them, on health and general well being grounds, it might not be that important, then again it might be the diffrence between living a health life and suffering a painful deficiency in its physiology all its life, not suggesting it does, its what i'm trying to find out.


I`m saying that all the studies on wild Savannah monitors have shown they do not brumate, so obviously it most probably isn`t detrimental to their health or evolution would have dictated they do or die!
None of us here have studied them in the wild (yet), but if you`re really that interested, I`m almost sure that given the opportunity Daniel Bennett would agree to let you accompany him on another trip to do further studies on the species (several of us have already discussed this possibility with him). Perhaps brumating Savannah monitors might be found at last, then husbandry (their lives) will improve even more than some people think they have by coming to live with us... (I`m not joking about the question you asked or my reply, just that last bit). ;)

[nepoez]

In a few years they will discover that it only needs to be 10 + proving my theory...just wait hah

If you fast for 3 days you will be even more handsome haha

[nepoez]

I`m saying that all the studies on wild Savannah monitors have shown they do not brumate, so obviously it most probably isn`t detrimental to their health or evolution would have dictated they do or die!
None of us here have studied them in the wild (yet), but if you`re really that interested, I`m almost sure that given the opportunity Daniel Bennett would agree to let you accompany him on another trip to do further studies on the species (several of us have already discussed this possibility with him). Perhaps brumating Savannah monitors might be found at last, then husbandry (their lives) will improve even more than some people think they have by coming to live with us... (I`m not joking about the question you asked or my reply, just that last bit). ;)

Would love to know when the next trip is.

[murrindindi]

Would love to know when the next trip is.


Send him (Daniel) an email, ask him when he might have the time, he was definitely interested in doing more studies (it`s not a joke about him being willing to take a few people along), probably best next year.