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Old 12-16-10, 04:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Jag x Jag = death?

I always heard a Jag to jag = dead snakes. None of the babies live. That why when i saw this ad i thought Bul-sh-t. I am i wrong or is this person a flat out lair?


1.1 Jaguar Carpet Pythons
This is a great pair of Jaguar Carpets. These are my best looking babies yet. The female was actually produced from a JAG x JAG breeding. $550 for the pair plus shipping.

Shipping is overnight certified fed-ex

No shipping until after the holiday package rush. Animal safety concern.
Can be picked up at the Steel City Reptile Expo.

Male


Female


Thanks for looking
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Old 12-16-10, 04:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

The homozygous, or 'super', form of the Jaguar mutation is the Leucistic; a pure white snake that completely lacks both color and pattern. The super form of the Jaguar is achieved by breeding two Jaguars together (which results in 1/4 Leucistics, 50% Jaguars and 1/4 Normal Siblings). To put it another way, Jaguars are actually the visible heterozygous form of the Leucistic carpet. Unfortunately, the Leucistic form of the Jaguar appears to be lethal, or at best very unstable. To date, none of these snakes have lived long after hatching, and some do not even make it out of the egg at all. Many breeders are hopeful that stronger strains of the Jaguar may eventually yield healthy living Leucistic Jaguars. Only time will tell. You can only judge for yourself lol
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Old 12-16-10, 04:55 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

the super form is a leucistic carpet, but so far it has proven fatal the siblings survive fine though to my understanding
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Old 12-16-10, 05:45 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

All jaguar carpets are the heterozygous form of the gene...the homozygous form is leucistic, which is always fatal. If you breed two jags together, each egg has a 50% chance of being het (jag), a 25% chance of being normal (25%), and a 25% chance of being homozygous (fatal leucistic). So you could produce viable babies by breeding jags to jags. I know breeders who have done it routinely.
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Old 12-16-10, 05:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

can someone speak English and tell me why jag jag is fatal
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Old 12-16-10, 05:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

Unfortunately, Reptile Reptile, we don't know why it's fatal. It produces a leucistic snake (basically lack of ALL skin pigments, not just black as in albinism). In a lot of other python species- ball pythons, Burmese, reticulated pythons- leucisism is not fatal, and the famous BEL ball python is a leucistic. For some reason, probably because of the way the genetics interact with other genes for necessary things, in carpet pythons the leucistic mutation is always fatal. I think a leucy carpet lived for 24 hours, but had severe spinal kink and neurological problems. It is thought that with the jaguar form (they only have one copy of the mutation) there is enough normal proteins to allow the animal to survive, although a lot of jaguars do have some neurological abnormalities. However, when they end up with two copies of the gene (leucistic), there is no normal copy to counteract and they cannot survive. Until someone does a full genetic screening panel and gets the genome and maps where the genes are and what else is on those chromosomes, we won't know exactly why this morph is fatal only in carpet pythons. It's a shame though- an all white carpet python with blue eyes would sure be stunning!
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Old 12-16-10, 06:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will0W783 View Post
All jaguar carpets are the heterozygous form of the gene...the homozygous form is leucistic, which is always fatal. If you breed two jags together, each egg has a 50% chance of being het (jag), a 25% chance of being normal (25%), and a 25% chance of being homozygous (fatal leucistic). So you could produce viable babies by breeding jags to jags. I know breeders who have done it routinely.
Ok i always misunderstood it. I thought Jag to Jag was fatal. Another question won't Jag to jag then up the chance of them having even more neurological issues?
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Old 12-16-10, 06:04 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

No, it won't really, because you're still dealing with snakes that have one single copy of the mutation and one copy of the normal gene. Having had both parents be jags won't really alter that. They've shown that the neurological issues aren't really inheritable either, much the same as they found with the spider ball python. You can breed parents that have no issues and end up with serious stargazer babies. On the other hand, you can breed a parent that has a lot of neurological issues and end up with babies that are fine. It's all luck of the draw as far as I know.
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Old 12-16-10, 06:14 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

Thanks Kim for clearing that up for me. That why i love this site i swear i learn something new every day.
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Old 12-16-10, 06:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

so how do you get a jag in the first place if you cant breed them?
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Old 12-16-10, 06:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

Traditionally, co-dominant genes have both a heterozygous form and a homozygous form. Heterozygous animals carry one copy of the mutant gene, while homozygous animals carry two copies of the mutant gene. Jaguars are the heterozygous form of this mutation, and therefore carry only one copy of the Jaguar gene. The homozygous, or 'super', form of the Jaguar mutation is the Leucistic; a pure white snake that completely lacks both color and pattern. The super form of the Jaguar is achieved by breeding two Jaguars together (which results in 1/4 Leucistics, 50% Jaguars and 1/4 Normal Siblings). To put it another way, Jaguars are actually the visible heterozygous form of the Leucistic carpet. Unfortunately, the Leucistic form of the Jaguar appears to be lethal, or at best very unstable. To date, none of these snakes have lived long after hatching, and some do not even make it out of the egg at all. Many breeders are hopeful that stronger strains of the Jaguar may eventually yield healthy living Leucistic Jaguars. Only time will tell.
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Old 12-16-10, 06:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

ok i get it the jag is a mutation that can be made with other carpets but if 2 jags are bred they make supers aka luestic am i correct or even close?



either way those babies are gorgeous
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Last edited by Reptile_Reptile; 12-16-10 at 07:00 PM.. Reason: nobody commented on the pictures
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Old 12-17-10, 12:24 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

yes they can make luecys, but the longest lasting luecy carpet is somthing like 8 minutes from hatching or somthing if i remember correctly, but you most likley wont get one if your did jag to jag, so its pretty safe you will have no dead snakes after the the hatching, but their is a chance, who knows maybe be the first to have a surviving luecy carpet, wouldnt that be somthing eh oh and that is one beautifull jag baby their, its going to be one hell of a beauty when its older.
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Old 12-17-10, 08:56 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

Freebody, I think one leucy carpet made it close to 24 hours....it was on YouTube and there's a thread about it on MoreliaPythons.com. Reptile_Reptile, if you breed two jags, because of the way the genetics work, only 25% of the eggs or so would be leucistics and die. When people breed jag x jag, they usually talk about the 25% fatal leucy portion that they don't expect to even hatch. With jag x jag, you get jags (50%), and normal siblings (25%) and 25% non-hatch or die right after hatching. Whereas, if you breed a normal to a jag, you only have a 25% chance of producing any jaguars, so it is still beneficial to a lot of breeders to do a jag to jag breeding.
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Old 12-17-10, 10:34 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Jag x Jag = death?

jag x jag is frowned upon by some morelia breeders chuck

it can create leusistic jaguars

the longest a leucy has survived is a few hours out the egg

the rest of the clutch is usually healthy though mate

roplh milkeson from europe is trying to introduce bredl genetics into things

theres an on going debate as to the specific or sub specific status of this snake

he's thinking the bredl genetics may help a leusistic carpet python to survive

roplh does a lot of work with diamond bredl jagaurs and bredl jaguars

cheers shaun
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