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Old 05-11-09, 10:34 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Unhappy Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

Hi everyone,

I had a yearling jungle/diamond carpet cross which my fiance bought about two months ago. When we got her she had had a bad shed and had a few pieces stuck to her neck, which we got off. However, when she went into her next shed cycle, she had the same problem and I upped the humidity. she got a respiratory infection and I took her to the vet who agreed and said it had gotten into her lungs. He put her on injected Baytril, every other day and gave her the first dose there. When I had her in, she was alert and active and curious. The day after the vet visit and shot, she was corkscrewed up in her cage and holding her head at a weird cocked angle and moving jerkily and randomly. All down her body, she had her spine kinked up and parts of herself flipped upside down. I put her in a separate room and made sure to sanitize my snake room and everything she might have ever touched. The next day I gave her the second injection of Baytril in the evening, and she was dead the following morning. I know the loss of muscle control, spasming and weird head holding can be symptoms of IBD, but I would think that if that were the case it would have set on as neurological problem and not respiratory infection and it would not have been fatal so fast. I think it was the Baytril- fine before the first injection, seizing and losing coordination after the first, dead after the second. Has anyone else had similar experiences with Baytril? Any other ideas what could have been going on?
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Old 05-11-09, 10:59 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

Here is a photo of what she was doing- it isn't the best because I took it with my phone, but it shows how she twisted her back end around and was holding her head sideways as she moved
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File Type: jpg intriguesick.jpg (23.6 KB, 33 views)
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Old 05-11-09, 01:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

Oh, Willow--how awful!! Was this vet herp-certified? Did he/she advise any other treatment at all? It may have been that maintaining the increased humidity and raising the temps some would have been sufficient to help the snake get well, but I don't know that for sure.

According to Melissa Kaplan, Baytril is "highly cytotoxic and nephrotoxic" for reptiles, and though it can be and often is administered as a treatment for respiratory and other infections, it should be done carefully. I wonder what the dosage was and whether it was too high.

Here's a link to the info Kaplan provides:

Common Reptile Drugs and Dosages

I'm so sorry this happened to your snake.
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Old 05-11-09, 01:44 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

Sounds like your Vet screwed up majorly on the dosage & it was way too high. I have used Batril as have others I know PLENTY in the past & have never had these issues, mind you they were in the proper dosage. I have a feeling the Vet OD'd your snake. Likely gave it a dose meant for a mammal of the same weight instead of the reduced dosage required for a reptile, Mark
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Old 05-11-09, 01:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

She weighed 79g and he had her on 5 units in an insulin syringe- not sure what that corresponds to in mL or in mg/kg, but I trusted him. If I have a snake with an R.I. again, I won't be using Baytril- I'll demand something else, or an oral antibiotic and deal with the longer dosing regimen. I feel like I killed the poor thing trying to help her. The vet is herp and exotics certified. He keeps his own snakes and has always been really good for me in the past. He is known all around the Philly area as the go-to vet for reptiles. I called them and told them what had happened this morning and the nurse just said "it couldn't have been the Baytril because it didn't happen right away". Well, they have slower metabolisms than we do, so to me it would make sense that the reaction would take some time to set in; the drug would take a while to get into her system enough to cause the problem.
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Old 05-11-09, 01:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

Thank you guys for your responses and advice. I really appreciate it.
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Old 05-11-09, 02:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

That sounds to me like a HUGE dose for such a little snake. I wish I had the info to confirm it but I'm pretty sure the last time I had an ADULT female with an RI the dose was only that or maybe double that. We are talking like a 10 pound snake too.
Baytril is the way to go for RIs & you do not want to orally medicate unless it is the last resort IMHO Orally is very stressful for both the snake & you a you have to pin it, force its mouth open, stick a long needless syringe down its throat & basically Force feed it the medicine. Not a pleasant experince for the keeper or the snake.
A shot is far quicker & easier & more effective as well. Grab the snake quick & pin it for a few seconds while you administer the shot & done.
Also I am wondering if maybe the Vet did not give the shot (if it was indeed the right dosage) correctly. Its injected into the muscle tissue of the snake & if not done correctly & injected too deep can be getting injected into a vital organ. The dosage sounds high to me but I don't have infomon hand & am not a reptile vet. Mark
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Old 05-11-09, 07:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

Does this dosage information appear to be correct? It is from when snake poo looks like a bunch of fish poo - Redtailboa.net and was posted by JuliusSqueezer:

Quote:
50cc a day???? is this a snake or an elephant? Please check your dosage. Also, if you are shooting her up with baytril every day, you may be overdosing her anyway and destroying her kidneys which could be causing some abormal urates...I really don't know what effect this would have because I have never exposed anything to that much antibiotic. everyother day is the norm for no more than 4 doses total ....then lay off for a couple of weeks and repeat if needed. Double check your dosage....vets make mistakes too. 5-10mg per kg is the proper dosage for snakes. if you take the maximum dose of 10 mg of baytril per 1 kg of snake, you follow this formula. First weigh the snake. say the snake weighs in at 900 grams. that is 0.9 kg. So multiply .9 x 10=9mg. THIS DOES NOT MEAN you draw up 9 cc of baytril from the vile. Baytril, as with most drugs are concentrated. Baytril comes in 2 strengths 22.7mg and 100 mg. Most vets don't even carry the 100mg strength and it is in a huge bottle. the small purple bottle is 22.7 mg. anyway...9 divided by 22.7= 0.39647577092511013215859030837004 which of course can be rounded off to .4cc of actual drug to draw up. When figuring a maximum dose though, be careful not to do much rounding off. FOr most RIs I go 7mg/kg. For things like stomititis or scale rot...I go 5mg/kg. Only with very serious RIs do I ever consider 10mg/kg dosages....but anyway...just thought I would share so you can double check what your vet told ya....and please...talk to him/her about this every day thing. how many daily doses are you giving and is it oral or injected? My guess is that you are giving .5 cc doses. I dunno how big your snake is but I doubt it's several hundred pounds...so if you really are dosing out 50cc daily to anything smaller than godzilla....please stop now.
[addsig]
If that is correct, Willow's snake was definitely receiving an overdose.
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Old 05-11-09, 07:40 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

Though I am no expert the above quote seems to be on the level IMHO & as I suggested previously the snake was likely OD'd by the dosage administered.
Its an every second day thing for sure & I've been told for 2 weeks at a time like most all other antibiotics ever administered, not only 4 times as suggested. Buddy seems to know his stuff pretty good though. Mark
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Old 05-11-09, 09:10 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

Willow, I am terribly sorry for your loss. I can't offer any help, as I am too new to herps, but just know that I feel terrible for you, and you're in my thoughts
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Old 05-12-09, 06:09 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Jungle/diamond reaction to Baytril? :(

Thank you everyone! I talked to the vet last night and he said he's used Baytril on hundreds of snakes and never had a problem. He felt it was the pneumonia turning toxic and causing neurological problems and that that happens in the final stages of pneumonia. I still feel that the Baytril was, at least partly, responsible for her death. I will just take this as a lesson learned to always double-check the dosage for myself.
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