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Old 02-07-04, 10:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Roy, Coastal Plain!

Coastal Plain Milksnake
Lampropeltis triangulum 'temporalis'

Roy, Can you tell me what the great book says about these.




Thanks,

Brian
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Old 02-08-04, 09:58 PM   #2 (permalink)
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From what I've heard about them...they're thought to be intergrades between scarlets and eastern milks. No longer recognized as a subspecie. I have read that there are some universities doing genetic research on them to definetively find out whether or not they are intergrades or not. Hope this helps .
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Old 02-08-04, 10:20 PM   #3 (permalink)
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They're doing studies with molecular analysis and DNA to see if they require subspecific status. A lot of people who work with them seem to think they deserve it.
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Old 02-10-04, 02:22 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Kenneth L Williams dropped temporalis from his
second revised edition of
"Systematics and Natural History of the American Milk Snake, Lampropeltis triangulum"
His book is published by "Milwaukee Public Museum" It's quite scientific and very technical and not the easiest read for non biologists, but its probably the most in depth look at triangulum in publication, and a must for milksnake fans, interested in distribution of subspecies and intergradiation. The second revised edition also has some nice colored pictures.(Brian you should consider getting a copy)

Williams has quite alot to say about intergradiation in various subspecies and he even examines specimens and lists meristic data to support his view that temporalis should be invalidated because it has characteristics intermediate between elapsoides and Lt. triangulm.
He makes some very interesting comments about the fact that triangulum and elapsoides exist sympatrically across their range, and in fact it's quite unusual that intergradiation has taken place on the Atlantic coast as the two subspecies differ more from one another than any other two groups within the Species. Lt triangulum and Lt elapsoides are different sizes, have dissimilar head geometry and have different diets, and meristics amongst other interesing facts. He poins out that the copulatory act alone could be rather difficult given the size difference of adults.
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Old 02-10-04, 05:29 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Lt triangulum and Lt elapsoides are different sizes, have dissimilar head geometry and have different diets, and meristics amongst other interesing facts. He points out that the copulatory act alone could be rather difficult given the size difference of adults.
Interesting. Wouldn't that make that natural Blk rat and Northern Pine hybrid almost impossible? I guess it's a matter of frequency hence the range if intergradation rather than just one specimen.

I won't say I'm a HUGE fan of milks in general but I DO like the NA ones and I wish someone would finalize this intergrade or subspecies thing.

On another note, wouldn't it be possible for a naturally occuring intergrade to eventually become a subspecies? Like say for example, an area of intregradation gets isolated due to human disturbance or something drastic, isn't it possible for that isolated population of intergrades eventually evolve (physically and genetically) to become subspecies? Isn't that how some snake species branched out anyways?

My personal opinion on some NA Lampropeltis intergrades ("floridana", "sticticeps", "temporalis" etc.) may be moving towards being a seperate subspecies. I just wish I lived long enough to see that happen!
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Old 02-10-04, 05:31 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Vanan what you're describing, or asking about happened to appalachicolae.
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