border
sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum
 

Go Back   sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum > Enclosure Creation Forums > General Enclosure Discussion

Notices

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-09-02, 10:41 AM   #1 (permalink)
Member
 
The_Boaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2002
Location: Cannon Falls, MN / USA
Posts: 12
PVC and "Off Gassing"

PVC and "Off Gassing"

I am not sure of the origin of the discussion regarding PVC gassing but here are my two cents worth. Before I began building "Boaphile Plastics" I had been a Cabinet Maker for 15 years. As a cabinet maker I was aware that particle board products "gassed" formaldehyde. Occasionally we would have customers purchase special particle board that did not contain any formaldehyde. This product was about 50% more expensive that the regular materials. A small amount really in the grand scheme of things. The data they gave us was that 95% of all gassing occurred in the first month after manufacture of the cabinets. This makes sense as the product is very fresh and while stacked 4' high there would be nowhere for those gases to go. The last 5% supposedly would gas off over the lifetime of the product. I have not found any real data but suspect that the same thing may be true of PVC. PVC is a petroleum product and as such chemicals are used in the production of it. So I'm sure there are compounds that taken in inordinate amount may be harmful.

Generally all synthetic products may gas off to some extent or another. Shoot cows gas off dangerous levels of methane that scientist believe has harmed the environment. Every time we expel out own methane, sorry about the nasty analogy, we expel a poisonous gas. Does that gas harm us? I know of no study that says it does. The only information I have been able to find on PVC gassing is published by groups that have an ax to grind or in other words are generally against advancement of mankind and totally anti petroleum products and the like. These are the "Environmental whackos". So I think it is likely unreasonable to actually believe that there is any real danger from this PVC. PVC like other synthetic products is not an all natural product. I'm sure there have not been any studies on the effects of PVC on Herps as there have only been cages built from PVC for a few years now.

I guess cages could be all glass since I think glass doesn't gas off since it is essentially a natural product. But don't use silicone to seal those edges. That could be dangerous couldn't it? Silicone is a petroleum product as well and you are supposed to only use it in a well ventilated area. Don't use melamine either unless you get the formaldehyde free melamine because you will be poisoning your charges. I don't think any sort of plastic should be used at all either as they can gas off the byproducts of production. So this leaves glass and wood. I mean real wood. But you can't use just any wood. Oak produces tannic acid which can be toxic. An all pine cage probably isn't the best choice either with the oils and strong aroma that can come from it. Oh yea, don't use any sort of sealer on the wood either as these contain chemicals that could be dangerous to your herps.

Of course I am being obnoxious and sarcastic trying to illustrate the absurdity of this concern in the grand scheme of things. PVC has been used for most plumbing that we have all been drinking water from out entire lives. To think that now a plastic cage is a portable gas chamber I think is a little over the edge or a bit of an overreaction to an imagined danger. I'm sure nobody has actually done any sort of study regarding the use of PVC in Reptile cages vs. anything else either. So why scream fire when there isn't even any smoke?
__________________
Keeper of "The Boa Black Hole"
The_Boaphile is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 06-09-02, 01:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
Member
 
Quervo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2002
Location: Langley, B.C.
Age: 59
Posts: 374
>>The only information I have been able to find on PVC gassing is published by groups that have an ax to grind or in other words are generally against advancement of mankind and totally anti petroleum products and the like. These are the "Environmental whackos".<<

Thank you .. I will wear that name with pride beside my "bunny hugger" badge. Let's face it, there are only two groups that will publish info on these products - the manufacturers .. ya right, they will publish info on how their products make you sick .. and the "environmental whackos" people who are concerned about just how fast we might be killing everything.

And "against advancement of mankind "??????? Since when has a concern about pollution been against advancement of mankind?

>>So I think it is likely unreasonable to actually believe that there is any real danger from this PVC.<<

Yup, thats what they said about DDT, thalidamide, etc, etc. Now I'm not saying these cage materials are THAT bad, but they are a health concern.

>>I'm sure there have not been any studies on the effects of PVC on Herps as there have only been cages built from PVC for a few years now.<<

You got that right .. and there likely never will be. Most people think we shouldn't even be allowed to keep these guys.!

>>Of course I am being obnoxious and sarcastic trying to illustrate the absurdity of this concern in the grand scheme of things.<<

NO .. you're not .. you're right on the money!! But if we went that far, we couldn't keep most of these critters, so we compromise .. we try to make our cages as safe as possible .. right?

>>To think that now a plastic cage is a portable gas chamber I think is a little over the edge or a bit of an overreaction to an imagined danger.<<

An imagined danger .. hmmm. I have seen people walk into a new house and within minutes break out in rashes and almost pass out from asthma attacks, people who normally don't have these attacks. I've dealt with a group that tried to get some recognition for their various health problems caused by their homes.
These people consider their homes gas chambers .. they don't think concerns about this are over the edge. We make our closed cages out of these same products, I don't think sticking our heads in the sand and pretending nothing is wrong is horribly responsible.

>>PVC has been used for most plumbing that we have all been drinking water from out entire lives.<<

Yup, and they are just now admitting that there are health problems related to PVC pipe and that it should be replaced with ABS. The most common cause of "sick house syndrome" (next to MDF and carpeting) is household cleaners! Are these products still sold? Just because we use it doesn't mean it's safe.

Now as I've said before, these products will not kill your pet right away. It's the long term exposure that poses a risk. And yes, there is TONS of evidence that long term exposure to these products causes serious health problems .. oh sorry, that's all from the environmental whackos that are sick as hell, I guess that makes it invalid.

Offgassing won't affect all the animals, but it WILL affect some .. to some degree. I won't take that chance with my snake.

We have taken these animals out of their natural environment. Whether CB or WC they are still out of place. They are stressed enough from that, do we have to put more of a strain on them? We have a responsibilty to give them a home as close to natural as we can, otherwise maybe we SHOULDN'T be allowed to keep them.
__________________
Committed to creating safe havens for our scaly friends
Quervo is offline  
Old 06-09-02, 05:55 PM   #3 (permalink)
Member
 
The_Boaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2002
Location: Cannon Falls, MN / USA
Posts: 12
Thank you for a perfect reply.

You made my points perfectly. I'm not looking for a fight but I am glad to have the point illustrated for me that there is this small group of people that would like to outlaw all cars, trucks and anything else they believe is a hazard to our "Mother Earth". Forget what can realistically be done. Modern mankind is not a legitimate part of nature. I am a bit of an environmental whacko myself compared to most people but there needs to be balance in these actions. We should be as good a steward with our Earth as we can be reasonably be. The dyed in the wool whackos do not consider modern man to be a legitimate part of nature. There is no place for modern man. Of course the true non hypocritical believers are very few and far between. There aren't many that have abandoned all petroleum products or anything brought to them using these means. Your true believers would do that. Ted Kaczynski the "Unabomber" was a true believer. The previous post even alludes to the fact that they would not object to making it illegal for us to keep Reptiles at all. These same people, the whackos, definitely are against our keeping any animals of any kind. Animals should live free and wild... period. Forget the fact that captive breeding has produced millions of animals that would not be alive where it not for our efforts. It is our responsibility to take the best care we know how to of our animals. That's it and that is my goal every day and to hopefully prevent the whackos from taking away our right to keep and breed these wonderful animals.
__________________
Keeper of "The Boa Black Hole"
The_Boaphile is offline  
Old 06-10-02, 01:16 AM   #4 (permalink)
Member
 
Quervo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2002
Location: Langley, B.C.
Age: 59
Posts: 374
???
HUH??? !!!
__________________
Committed to creating safe havens for our scaly friends
Quervo is offline  
Old 08-29-02, 04:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
Member
 
Syst3m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug-2002
Location: Detroit Area
Posts: 610
Send a message via ICQ to Syst3m
Hum.. I could be wrong about this one bit. But I thought Silicon is made from the same stuff that glass is made from.

And another note, PVC used in water supply might be the reason its dangerous. I know its against code around here to use it for supply. Waste is ok since well.. Nothing in danger in the sewers...
Except that 18 foot crock.

Last edited by Syst3m; 08-29-02 at 05:41 AM..
Syst3m is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 08-29-02, 09:37 AM   #6 (permalink)
Member
 
Nicky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr-2002
Location: Mississauga, Ontario
Age: 24
Posts: 1,342
Send a message via MSN to Nicky
wow never knew that is can u use plywood for herp cages? does it gasses off or whatever is in poisionous toi herps? does anyone know?
__________________
Kayla Young
1.2 Corns, 0.1 Ball python, 0.1.2 crested gecko's and 0.0.1 Bearded dragon
Nicky is offline  
Old 08-29-02, 11:57 AM   #7 (permalink)
Member
 
Kurzix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug-2002
Location: Detroit Area
Age: 36
Posts: 317
Country:
Send a message via ICQ to Kurzix Send a message via AIM to Kurzix Send a message via Yahoo to Kurzix
Silicone is amazing stuff, It can be made into an adhesive, a lubricant, and even that transparent stuff we put in our walls to look outside. Silicone being on the periodic table of elements is about are natural as you can get. Sure it off gasses while curing (don;t you love the smell of curing silicone adhesive?), but its been used FOR YEARS in aquariums for fish. And more recently for herps as well.

With a debate like this one, lets back it up with some references! Any "wacko" can come on and say whatever they want because they beleive it to be true. Now if that same wacko were post some links, and/or other references to where they came about their viewpoints, then they will have saved us all. I remember one certain wacko who said the earth was round.

I have to beleive all of us would like to take the absolute best care of our animals, no matter what the speices. Thats why we are here. Since I've seen alot of talk about off gassing in the forums, but no links or references, I am going to go out and find a few so we can all read for ourselves whats dangerous and whats not.

If any of you so called "wackos" happen to find some first please post them.

Kurzix
__________________
~~Curently Owned~~
Crested Gecko: 0.0.2
African Fat Tail Gecko: 1.1
Ball Python: 0.0.1
Kurzix is offline  
Old 08-29-02, 12:08 PM   #8 (permalink)
Member
 
Syst3m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug-2002
Location: Detroit Area
Posts: 610
Send a message via ICQ to Syst3m
Kurzix you freakin wacko...

Besides were talking about PVC. I just was refering to his comment about silicon being bad for your animals possibly.
__________________
Snakes? I just like to teraform!
Syst3m is offline  
Old 08-29-02, 12:25 PM   #9 (permalink)
Member
 
Kurzix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug-2002
Location: Detroit Area
Age: 36
Posts: 317
Country:
Send a message via ICQ to Kurzix Send a message via AIM to Kurzix Send a message via Yahoo to Kurzix
Wacko or not, but did you know that OSHA considers Acetic Acid a major indoor air contaminant?

For those of you who are unfamiliar with Acetic Acid, it is what gives vinegar its lovely smell.

MAJOR INDOOR AIR CONTAMINANTS.

Acetic Acid.
Sources: X-ray development equipment, silicone caulking compounds.
Acute health effects: Eye, respiratory and mucous membrane irritation

Copied from http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/osta/otm...otm_iii_2.html

And yes I know we talking about PVC, but why not check into other common cage building materials?
__________________
~~Curently Owned~~
Crested Gecko: 0.0.2
African Fat Tail Gecko: 1.1
Ball Python: 0.0.1
Kurzix is offline  
Old 08-30-02, 07:44 AM   #10 (permalink)
Member
 
The_Boaphile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2002
Location: Cannon Falls, MN / USA
Posts: 12
One thing to consider...

Off gassing is something most man made building materials do. However the majority of the "off gassing" takes place when very new. Plywoods, particle board and therefore melamine offgas formaldehyde but the vast majority of this gas comes off the material when very new. I was a 15 year cabinet maker. I worked with many far longer term cabinet makers as well. As cabinet makers we were subject to disproportionately much higher levels of formaldehyde offgassing. Since all the particle board, melamine and plywood we used off gassed AND we were machining it all day long with hundreds of sheets of material we were certainly going to be exposed to very high levels of this off gassing. However, there are no restrictions laid out by OSHA for any safety requirements for those like me who worked with this material everyday of our lives. If this was a legitimate concern OSHA whose responsibility it is to look out for the worker would have some policies or laws protecting workers. Such is not the case. Neither are there restrictions for people working with cured plastic materials. I think it is obvious and logical to assume that the dangers, as we currently know them, can and are overstated by some. Especially those who tend to overreact to the alleged dangers of these sorts of concerns. When and if it is actually proven that these materials are a legitimate danger to anyone they will no longer be available. There is that very small group of people (I'm refraining from using the word wacko) who would if they could outlaw fast food too. For the good of all of us. Ted Kazinski the Unibomber was one of those people who killed people here in the US to get his points across. Certainly not everyone that has these extreme points would condone what Kazinski did. Very very few would but the point I make is that your extremists are not kidding. They mean to push modern society back 150 years if they can which would include not allowing any of us to keep any of the herps we work with and reproduce. Remember whoever else is in the foxhole with you today fighting the “offgassing” fight will one day be pushing their other agenda which is to outlaw the keeping of any herps. This despite the fact that we take good care of our animals. Good enough that they reproduce with great vigor greatly increasing the number of these wonderful animals for more and more of the masses to enjoy. The “whackos” would take this freedom from you in a heart beat. They are working on it right now. One day those extremists may turn on you and the hobby you love.

Just another two cents worth from The Boaphile/Jeff Ronne.
__________________
Keeper of "The Boa Black Hole"
The_Boaphile is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 08-30-02, 08:05 AM   #11 (permalink)
Member
 
sophia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul-2002
Location: Sanford, North Carolina
Age: 43
Posts: 759
For those of you interested in what the outgassing and what product manufacturing causes as far as contamination, etc... There was a special on HBO called Vinyl is Final (at least I think that was the name, it aired last year). It dealt with PVC and the problems environmentally related to the process of making vinyl siding and pipes. The manufacturing process has killed hundreds and made thousands sick.

Tay
__________________
http://www.morningstar.sophiagroup.org/cgi-morningstar/ikonboard.cgi - Serpents of the Morning Star

http://www.sophiagroup.org/cgi-sophiagroup/ikonboard.cgi - Sophiagroup

"He who always gets the last word, is generally the least intelligent speaker!"
sophia is offline  
Old 08-30-02, 02:20 PM   #12 (permalink)
Member
 
Quervo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2002
Location: Langley, B.C.
Age: 59
Posts: 374
Be carefull Tay .. Mr. Boaphile will have you trying to overthrow the government if you keep up that talk.

I'm sorry everyone, but I just can't let this one go.

Quote:
Off gassing is something most man made building materials do. However the majority of the "off gassing" takes place when very new
True for ply and particle woods, not so for stains and finishes. Some paints offgas for years.

Quote:
However, there are no restrictions laid out by OSHA for any safety requirements for those like me who worked with this material everyday of our lives
Yeees .. and there were no restrictions on DDT, asbestos, PCB's, thalidomide, lead based paints, etc, etc, etc. This attitude of "we've done it this way for years .. it's obviously okay" is far too "head in the sand" for me.

Quote:
When and if it is actually proven that these materials are a legitimate danger to anyone they will no longer be available
Well, you're just a little naive aren't you. Ever hear of pesticides .. are they safe? are they still used? It's only when the safety issues override the profit made that anything is done.

Quote:
There is that very small group of people (I'm refraining from using the word wacko) who would if they could outlaw fast food too. For the good of all of us. Ted Kazinski the Unibomber was one of those people who killed people here in the US to get his points across
Quote:
They mean to push modern society back 150 years if they can which would include not allowing any of us to keep any of the herps we work with and reproduce. Remember whoever else is in the foxhole with you today fighting the “offgassing” fight will one day be pushing their other agenda which is to outlaw the keeping of any herps
Where do you get off coming up with statements like this? I express a LEGITMATE concern over offgassing in order to give our reptiles the best habitats possible. These animals deserve the best environment we can give them.
Maybe you should take the time to do a little research before you start spewing off your insults. Just because people have a different opinion than you doesn't make them terrorists ... (I'm refraining from using the word jackass)

For those of you wondering what we are talking about here, as my esteemed colleague has pointed out .. everything offgasses. Plywoods to some degree, particle woods to a greater degree, oil based paints and stains, even carpeting and household cleaners vent toxic chemicals that have a very harmfull effect on some people. (things like formaldehyde, benzine, chlorine, cyanide and arsenic) My concern is that these chemicals could have a similar effect on our reptiles. (We do put them in an enclosed area that amplifies the concentration of these gasses.) I've urged people to think of this when building their cages and to use the safest products they can. Water based stains and finishes, plywoods instead of particle woods, and of course the reason for this thread .. PVC. There is a growing concern about the safety of this plastic. (Oh .. but only from "whackos")

If my concern over the safety of our reptiles has offended anyone else .. I apologize.

Okay .. I'm done ... nothin to see here folks, move along.
__________________
Committed to creating safe havens for our scaly friends
Quervo is offline  
Old 08-30-02, 03:05 PM   #13 (permalink)
Member
 
Syst3m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug-2002
Location: Detroit Area
Posts: 610
Send a message via ICQ to Syst3m
FREEEEDOOOMMMM!!!!

God who cares.. I just want to know of PVC is safe form my snake.
Yes or no?
__________________
Snakes? I just like to teraform!
Syst3m is offline  
Old 08-30-02, 05:56 PM   #14 (permalink)
Member
 
Quervo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2002
Location: Langley, B.C.
Age: 59
Posts: 374
Well, it's not really a yes or no thing

Is it safe in the short term .. quite likely. Is it safe for long term .. my answer is .. there's some debate about that so why take the chance. There are plenty of alternatives that are less controversial.
__________________
Committed to creating safe havens for our scaly friends
Quervo is offline  
Old 08-30-02, 06:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
Member
 
sophia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul-2002
Location: Sanford, North Carolina
Age: 43
Posts: 759
Actually guys, it's safe if it doesn't melt, but the melting of PVC realeases toxic fumes that can destroy your lungs and causes strange cancers.

Now about the overthrowing the government, I'm in the US and I'm ALL FOR THAT at this point, as our government officials are backward, unevolved, ********, talking monkeys and this is not at all fair to monkeys who are obviously much more evloved!


Tay
__________________
http://www.morningstar.sophiagroup.org/cgi-morningstar/ikonboard.cgi - Serpents of the Morning Star

http://www.sophiagroup.org/cgi-sophiagroup/ikonboard.cgi - Sophiagroup

"He who always gets the last word, is generally the least intelligent speaker!"
sophia is offline  
Login to remove ads
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:01 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2002-13, Hobby Solutions Inc.

right

SEO by vBSEO 3.1.0