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Old 12-20-02, 09:55 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I Dont agree with eyespy completely If there were regulations on what the breeder could charge its different. If that happened the reptile cost would be insane. Take ackies for example. You can get another species, say a savannah for 65$ at most stores, or you can pay a breeder 4-600$ for a baby ackie. A baby they produced over 10 of in one clutch in most cases. I dont see how the value of 10 ackies is 6 grand. Thats greed IMO. (these are also dwarf species that most breeders try to stress new comers to purchase, because they're so easy to care for, and they are! but what newcomer is going to be encouraged by a 600$ price tag. Not many.
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Old 12-20-02, 10:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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...

Ever hatched an ackie egg? Some guys are lucky if they get 50% hatch rates. And if you want cheaper animals, then breed them and produce them for everyone to enjoy. There's a reason some things are expensive, and that's because not everyone can breed. If they could, I'd be out of business fast.
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Old 12-20-02, 10:24 PM   #18 (permalink)
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very emotive subject, but it was something i had been pondering about posting myself (nice work jeff!) to start with the wild caught debate; in my opinion, there is no reason for any reptile to be taken from its natural habitat, and dumped into a petstore. wc does have a need, for several years madagascan boias have seen a dreadful decline in clean bloodlines. so in the case of certain species that need to be captive bred for the species continued survival then there can be no other alternative than to introduce fresh bloodlines into a designated captive breeding program.
got loads more to write, but i'm well battered. long afternnon at the bar!
cheers
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Old 12-20-02, 11:22 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I would like to say this: it seems to me that this whole hobby is primarily driven by ego and the all mighty dollar...the "who produced what first" and the constant b!tching and people jumping down other people's throats is really ridiculous. Guess what? Nobody cares who produced the first magical purple whatsamagidget! It's not like their giving out nobel prizes for this *****, guys...and I'm even skeptical of people who claim to be in the hobby because of the animals when they own 500+ BPs or whatever, how can you possibly appreciate the animals when you're producing them "en masse"?

Here's my blurb on BPs: for everyone jumping on the ballpython morph bandwagon, in a few years those expensive morphs will be going for what normals are going for now, mark my words because time will tell...it may take 10 years, it may take 20, but it will happen...people say that the market won't go down because of small clutch size, etc...etc...well their clutch size isn't a whole lot smaller than corns and there are a hell of a lot of people breeding them...they'll go the way of the corn snake...oh, yes...they will...
Also, what bothers me is how everyone claims to have an unproven "morph"...explain to me how a BP can be anerythristic when the have no red pigment! Tell me, because I am confused...

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Old 12-20-02, 11:42 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Huh?!?!?

Just because there is no cherry red flashing in your eyes, that doesn't mean there's no red pigment. Have you ever painted before? How do YOU suppose the color brown is made?

That's what I thought

And my hobby isn't driven by my ego. I decided to try breeding because I wanted so many different types of snakes and this was the one way I could have and enjoy them without going broke
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Old 12-21-02, 03:35 AM   #21 (permalink)
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....

I won't even touch the BP thing.

Here's another thread by the same guy on the thought of wild-caughts again. This is why I hate WC animals. It takes no skill to obtain one, and it does no service for the hobby.

Its the last paragraph that hits the home run. These people know what they are talking about.

Quote:
Posted by FR on Wed - Dec 18 - 9:04pm:
Posted by FR on Wed - Dec 18 - 9:04pm:

In Reply to: A ? for Mampam and others posted by Dragoon on Wed - Dec 18 - 5:31pm:

You sure do think alot. You think, and I feed, hahahahahahahaha
First, Daniel has his opinions based on what he sees. Not what you or I see. He is a field biologist not a keeper. Hes a writer as well, and a good one.

If you were to tour the exporters facilities, the importers as well, you may think the same. Some will turn your stomach, not all mind you.

As far as in nature, Most areas are perfectly fine for the monitors to exsist. There are millions of populations that are prefectly healthy. But again some are not. The future for monitors is good, but not for all species.

About what species get imported, its based on many things. Mainly ease of collection. Monitors that can be collected easily, can be sold cheap and if they are sold cheap, they provide a steady income. Monitors that are harder to come by, cost more and therefore are sold in less numbers.

I have to tell you, its not demand for a species that predicts what is imported, its price and price only.

The monitors that are found in large numbers are usually found in disturbed areas where their populations are abnormally high. but i wander.

Daniel sees monitors in nature, once you have done that, its very hard to see them in boxes, its very hard to hear people taking about putting them on cypress crap, or bedadog crap. It will tear your heart out. You see this reptile thats king of his turf, then see people going out of there way to take all thats natural away and turn them into a lap animal, that is a sin to the world in some peoples mind. You know, those people are not entirely wrong.

Sorry i can't remember your other questions. F
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Old 12-21-02, 11:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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i know for sure that 100 000 ball pythons were exported from africa in 2000. how can this be sustainable to the wild population???? the fact that dealers will sell 'ranched' balls for as little as $1.50 ea (when brought in lots of 1000) it demeans the life of the snake. the importer would expect that 50 - 65% will die, either en route, or within in the time it takes them to ship them out to other ditributors. all of these deaths are worked into the next selling price.
so much more to say, but so little energy
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Old 12-22-02, 03:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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....

I'm not sure I understand this statement?

Quote:
"...explain to me how a BP can be anerythristic when the have no red pigment! Tell me, because I am confused...
Anerythristic IS the absence of red pigment. The absence of erythrins. Now I'm confused. Big time.
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Old 12-22-02, 04:18 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Yes, but then how is an "anerythristic" BP any different from a normal BP? I've seen BPs marketted as "anerythristic" that looked exactly like axanthics, to me...so maybe it's confusion with the terminology on the breeder's part...but I've seen "axanthics" for sale from the same breeders, as well...so, if an albino BP has no trace of red pigment, then it's pretty safe to say BPs in general have very little, if any...so, I want to know how someone can claim that a BP is "anerythristic" (ie. lacking red pigment) when it never had any to begin with.
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Old 12-22-02, 04:40 PM   #25 (permalink)
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....

The difference can be seen in the pictures.




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Old 12-22-02, 08:04 PM   #26 (permalink)
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wow, this was a touchy subject and here i would like to add my 0.02$ and dont jump down my throat for a lousy opinion..we are all here to express and be friends.
To me, a ball python is a ball python. Those who pay big $$$ for those 'color morphs' to breed to their normal, breed back to the mother/father, etc..etc...and get babies and sell those, are really wasting their money...eventually the snake is gonna cost 100$ in the long run. Take bearded dragons for example...they were expensive, baby normals were costing what, 199.99$ at one point? and now we find normals for 40$!!!! color morphs are nothing anymore....and the whole iguana issue..i agree totally with that..i own 2 male iguanas and i rescue iguanas..i have 18"svl male iguana who lost his tail due to infection from people i rescued it from who used to throw the iguana against the windows...and ive seen a 7 foot iguana in good health....just because you see them in the stores for 19.99$, doesnt mean you cant respect them. The Anoles and house geckos, i bet 75% of you all think they are puny waste of time lizards, but in fact, they have a life, and they were pulled from their natural habitats to be abused and disrespected by most.
I am blabbing and i may not make sense at times but we all need to sit for a minute and re think this all and respect the animals we know and love.
Even rodents..they have a heart too.
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Old 12-22-02, 08:27 PM   #27 (permalink)
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if I get a genetic line that makes money I'll exploit it, I spend so much on housing, ect. that I have moved to trying to breed high end animals to support my habit lol
 
Old 12-22-02, 09:00 PM   #28 (permalink)
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.....

Ok, since we've completely abandoned the original thread's discussion (hey Paul, I know what it feels like now!! LOL!), I may as well participate as well.

lanalizard, why do you think Beardeds have dropped in price? Or Leos for that matter? Maybe its because my 5 year-old nephew could breed them? Or maybe because you basically have to shoot them for them not to breed? I don't know how long you've been in the hobby, but do you remember/know when albino Leos came out? It was way back in '93-94 if I remember correctly. Yeah. The debuted at $3,000US each! What are they now? $25US. Now, the albino Ball made its appearance at around the same time. Know how much it went for? $10,000. Know how much they are now? $3,000. Price drop? Yes. But not nearly as much as a Leo. Now why do you think that is?

Ley me illustrate:

If I gave a pair of albino Balls and a pair of albino Leos to my 5 year-old nephew, which do you think he'd breed first? Exactly. How many do you think he'd produce in his first 3 years? Well, I'd be mad at him if he didn't get at least 100 albino Leos, seeing as they mature at 8 months, have 6-8 clutches a year, you can make whatever sex ratio you want!!!!, and they take virtually no space to house 30 adults. How many albino balls do you think he'd produce? I think he'd be lucky not to fry them/kill them/let them escape/feed them poorly, let alone get any successful matings from them.

Point is, the Ball prices aren't going anywhere. I'm not sure why people think that they will be $100 any time soon, but these are usually people who don't even own a Ball Python, let alone ever bred one!

And I'm not jumping down your throat. I'm expressing my opinion as well as you were, only I'm providing a little reference and experience in addition.
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Old 12-22-02, 09:19 PM   #29 (permalink)
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good point Jeff, what many don't understand is that I don't care how many high-end animals I produce, if I droppped prices it affects the whole market. I won't underprice my animals to make a sale, I'll charge full market values always. It's not how CHEAP we make them but how well we MAKE them.
 
Old 12-22-02, 09:27 PM   #30 (permalink)
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!!!

Exactly Rev.!
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