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Old 11-03-02, 10:23 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I see your point, and agree whole heartedly. I suppose that the best we can do is take care of our animals, and inform others of the abuses that happen to the "pet store" animals. I think that it is probably a lack of education that leads to the problems.
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Old 11-03-02, 10:34 PM   #32 (permalink)
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lots of good points but i believe tia pan hs the best solution
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Old 11-03-02, 10:48 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Thanks Lance! Hey, where did Jeff go?
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Old 11-03-02, 11:17 PM   #34 (permalink)
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ok for my two cents worth
1. I will not pay more for any "pet" then my rent
2. I will pay for something i like but the not through the nose

i think jeff is way wrong just because a pet is cheep does not
mean everybody just thinks of them as disposable
i would not have any pets if every one cost a arm and a leg
i take very good care of my "pets" for one they eat better then
me they always get food no matter how broke i am they always
have a place to live even if i can't afford to rent

the cost of any animal is not what you pay for it, that is cheep.
it is the contiuned care and love you give the animal which is
expensive

i have raised animals for food and if you spend more on the animal then it costs to sell you lose money you can't afford to live
farmers are not rich but they still take care and love their animals

ok so there was my 2 cents
i am glad that corns are cheep that way i can have different ones and each one is like a different kind of snake
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Old 11-03-02, 11:42 PM   #35 (permalink)
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read closer

he said alot of people view them as disposable not all in fact most people that frequent a reptile site wouldnt find animals disposable its the people that see it in a store and think oh its only 20$ and it looks neat that is until a couple months later and its just a pain too feed and keep clean.

scottt
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Old 11-04-02, 10:41 AM   #36 (permalink)
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....

Uh oh. Morph agrees with me, I better rethink my arguments.




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Old 11-04-02, 10:53 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Here we go again....

Ok jsnake0, I'll reiterate yet again.

Again, you're thinking in terms if "me" and "I". That's great if you look after you animals. I didn't say that you wouldn't keep good care of your snakes, regardless of cost. But again, that's just you. I've been into the snake-thing since '91 and I've seen all the horror crap man. Just because YOU say you don't neglect your corns because they are inexpensive, doesn't mean that no one else does. And just because I say I can't house a Burm/Retic/Rock properly so I won't have one, doesn't mean that other people are as sensible/compassionate. They aren't and I've SEEN it. The industry has created disposable animals whether you like it or not. I hate it, and I'm passing on my observations to you, whether you believe me or not.


tai_pan1 had a great point and that's just to educate people. Only problem is people will be cruel no matter how much they "know". That's the significance of the cost of the animal. People would not be cruel to a $5,000 animal as that would be "cruel" to themselves, ha ha!

And Morph is right. Most people here don't buy from petstores. They've moved on from that sort of thing. Its the people that don't know anything about reptiles and can actually OWN one for a pitence that I'm talking about. Not the people at this site. I don't like that and no matter how much people tell me they look after their corn snakes, it won't change the fact that anyone with NO knowledge or scruples can buy a snake for pennies. Then, when feeding it live mice ceases to be fun and exciting, what happens to the snake? Who cares? It only cost twenty bucks. I make that in an hour. See my point? Just like pirannahs and Oscars. How many 8 year olds got those just to see them eat live fish? I know I did. I wish I didn't have that opportunity.
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Old 11-04-02, 11:54 AM   #38 (permalink)
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IMHO Morphs are a bad thing!
They are taking a genetic defect and exploiting it to produce gentically inferior animals. It also promotes inbreeding which further declines the genetic pool.

As far as the higher prices sure... I can understand that. First off it is hard to find the genetic trait and then it has to bred out to isolate it and increase the probability of producing that trait in offspring. So it is more work.
If people want to waste their money on a genetically inferior animal with no proven record for life span and overall health then great. As for me I will stick with my $25.00 cb ball python or my $99.00 cb BCI.
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Old 11-04-02, 03:06 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Morphs are not genetic "defects" any more than people with blue eyes are genetic "defects". Nature naturally produces dominant and recessive genes. Thousands of years ago, someone with blonde hair, blue eyes, and fair skin would have had a difficult time surviving in sub saharan africa, however they were well suited for survival in Iceland. Nature provides for these dominant and recessive genes to ensure the viability and survivability of a species, and allow for expansion of a species range.
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Old 11-05-02, 04:03 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I have to say I completeley agree with everything Jeff Favelle has been saying on this subject. I love morphs and think they're the reason our hobby is so mainstream. As for the people talking about hi prices of morphs, I think you're failing to realize that when you see a 16,000 ball python this considered an "investment quality" animal. Nobody is expected to pay that kind of money for a pet. This is what you call an immature market, it's not meant to be available to everybody.
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Old 11-05-02, 10:50 AM   #41 (permalink)
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.....

Exactly!! Thank you!! The snakes over $10,000 are not really available to the general public yet, although anyone could buy them. They are for other breeders until they are firmly established in the undustry.
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Old 11-05-02, 10:53 AM   #42 (permalink)
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!!!

See? This is why Burms should cost a little more. It would weed out these individuals right away and the die hards would still get them anyways.

Exactly 24 hours since.......
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Old 11-05-02, 10:54 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Personally, I like morphs... but then, I like genetics in general. And, while I may like them, if I ever find myself making a choice between "that snake" and "that car", well, something's wrong (that's why I like cornsnakes... easy to keep, and all the morphs stay within a reasonable price range.)

I think one way to look at those 'high end' morphs (for example, ball pythons) is that producing those very expensive animals brings in a cash flow for those breeders, who can then afford to work on other projects (consider that it would be hard for most people to even break even just raising normal bp's, since the wild caughts are still coming in a whole lot cheaper - and the 'average consumer' doesn't know any better than to buy a wild caught animal), like normals. In some cases , those ridiculously expensive animals are helping further the captive breeding of their normal counterparts. Or, the breeders can then fund projects with rarer but less in demand or more difficult snakes, and possibly discover proper husbandry techniques for those species to make them easier to keep and more available.

My $0.02
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Old 11-05-02, 11:15 AM   #44 (permalink)
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What bothers me most about high-end morphs is that the high price tag encourages so-called breeders (actually newbies who think they can exploit animals and make a quick buck) from jumping into the marketplace.

Once they don't achieve the colors they were after and find out how expensive it is to house and feed and heat all the offspring, those babies suffer horribly. They are neglected, overcrowded, dumped in an unsuitable climate where they are also at risk of transmitting or catching disease via the local herp population, or even euthanized.

Rescues are filled with this sort of thing and the needy keep growing in numbers.

The Humane Society here in the US is way out of control in their statements about keeping and selling reptiles, but sometimes I wish that some of their points were taken into consideration. It is my belief that herps should not be so readily available to pet stores and newbie breeders looking to make a few quick bucks at their expense. There should be some sort of a licensing procedure where the dealer must show a knowledge of general herp husbandry first. Unfortunately, most of the folks in animal control would need to learn a fair bit in order to administer the test. :-(

Jeff is right in that the low price tags of some truly beautiful "normal" animals greatly contributes to the suffering of herps at the hands of folks who buy on impulse. If folks had to seek out a qualified reptile specialty store or breeder first, they would be less likely to buy something that they cannot or just plain will not keep humanely.
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Old 11-05-02, 12:15 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I'd have to say that it is kinda nice to be able to get snakes for pretty cheap for all of us, but Jeff is right about the people who wouldn't care if their $20 pet lives or dies.

As for morphs, they are here. If you like them, buy them. If you don't, then don't. It shouldn't need to be more complicated than that. Nobody is going to change anyone else's mind on the subject. It's as useless as arguing about what our favorite colors are.

p.s. stormyva, where can I get some of those $25 cb balls you were talking about??
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