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Old 07-16-04, 02:54 PM   #31 (permalink)
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The wooden crate idea for snakes rather than fish is probably because if you crush a fishes box it doesn't escape and scare the bejeezus out of someone with a phobia, resulting in a nonsense lawsuit
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Old 07-16-04, 03:13 PM   #32 (permalink)
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What the hell are you talking about... I'm terrified of fish.

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Old 07-16-04, 06:28 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Fish are scaaaaarrrrryyyyyyy...............
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Old 07-16-04, 08:40 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Man, one time, I was swimming at a camp ground, and I was under water, and I picked up a cinder block, and a fish swam out, and I got scared, and screamed under-water, and it was scary, and I screamed, under-water... Man, that was scary...

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Old 07-16-04, 08:43 PM   #35 (permalink)
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man fish scare me lol
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Old 07-16-04, 08:49 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Sigh... that's just asking for so many improper jokes
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Old 07-16-04, 08:53 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I have to say that I'm kind of surprised that so many "shippers" aren't familiar with IATA regulations. These are not newly set in place, though do get revisited from time to time. IATA was created for the benefit of the animals being transported, and while a lot of the "suggested" methods seem rather strange to me, the intent remains the same. Personally, I stick with the styro in a rigid cardboard primary whenever possible.

I have found that shipping domestically (with in Canada) is somewhat relaxed, but exporting CITES shipments is a different story. They do ask if the shipment meets IATA regulations and it even says right on the CITES documents that they will not be considered valid if the animals are not properly packaged.



Just a short quote from IATA's General Container Requirements for Reptiles and Amphibians (CR-41-47) paragraph 10

"If polystyrene boxes are used inside of cardboard boxes the walls of the polystyrene boxes must have a minimum thickness of 2cm (3/4 inch). If separate polystyrene panels are used they must be tighly fitted to each other within the primary enclosure with no gap to prevent escape and avoid injury............"

......and from page 243 container requirement 44, paragraph 9
"Plastic containers are permissable for snakes less than 60 cm (24 in) in length. These containers must be rigid and able to support the entire weight of all other containers when stacked upright and if turned upside down, without failing structurally (without bending, cracking, or collapsing). The size of these containers must enable the animals to have contact with their whole ventral surface to the floor of the container."

edited: I forgot to add that no where does it say that snakes over 24" must be shipped in a wooden crate..........they do have to be packed in bags (according to guidlines), but the primary container can conform to any described types, styro lined boxes included).

Also contained in this section are suggested box designs for every type of reptile/amphibian, most of which suggest wood (I won't get into all the requirements for that as it is pretty lengthy).

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Old 07-16-04, 09:06 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I doubt plastic containers will be allowed in the near future, given that Air Canada is going EXCLUSIVELY to the slimmer jets that have NO HEATED CARGO. Exactly how does one insulate a plastic box? LOL!

3/4" cardboard?? Holy smokes, do they even make it that thick? I get my boxes now custom made FROM the fish transport industry and they are the THICKEST available and they are no where near 3/4" thick. My styrofoam is though.
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Old 07-17-04, 01:00 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Jon, I'm a bit surprised too..but I suspect many Canadian herpers have yet to export internationally with CITES.
And yes, I received a sand boa export CITES a couple weeks ago and Stamped right on the front of it in a black box was
"For live animals this permit is only valid if the transport conditions conform to the Guidelines for Transport of live animals or in the case of air transport to the IATA regulations"

Jon did you actually buy the IATA LAR manual.??

I no longer export enough to justify it, but I'd sure like to see a copy if you could loan it at the next show.
I used to have some pages from the old one but I dont recall ever paying for it. I'm not sure if it used to be free or perhaps I actually got it from Ottawa with an old CITES export permit
It used to show a wooden crate with numerous comparments/dividers, with holes in it, but it's obviously obsolete now.

A couple years back when I imported from Steve Osborne, I questioned him on his professional looking cardboard and styro boxes.
Steve works for the FAA, and mentioned to me that the IATA rules had been re written for herp transporting and that styros and deli cups were now OK... I assume your reference to plastic containers above, means Deli type containers and they are talking about stacking numerous containers one on top the other which is standard practive for neonate snakes.

For anyone interested here is the link to the
IATA publications website
https://www.iataonline.com/Store/Pro...g=Publications
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Old 07-17-04, 04:19 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Jeff - I think you might have been having a late night again The plastic containers refernece is from the individual packing requirements for snakes. The blurb prior is regarding primary packing conatainers.

Roy - I was going to order the manual, but the are revisiting it in September I think and I didn't want an outdated copy. I was able to get them to fax me just the reptile and amphibian sections for temporary reference. If you are interested in a copy, I'd be able to arrange something for you.

Those wooden crates are still outlined as appropriate shipping containers and the manual gives several designs/ideas of different speceis. It also outlines how many animals per bag/sized bag you are allowed to pack, etc. These ugly, primative looking wooden crates are still used regularly in the wholesale industry.
Yes, that quote was referring to deli cups. This is why I use SOLO's......toughest deli I've ever seen.

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Old 07-17-04, 10:28 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Hey all,
I'm the one that Leon was shipping to. I had not doubt that what Leon told me about his trip to the airport was true becase we have been friends for quite sometime. He did give me the number though and insisted that I call so I did.
The guy I spoke with was the same guy that Leon had, and sure enough, he said that anything over 24" had to be in a sturdy wooden box with internal supports. I mentioned that I knew of people who had been shipping for years using the styrofoam box method and he said that he couldn't let everyone break the rules.
He said that the box had to be non crushable. He said that it had to be able to withstand having 7200 lbs being set on it!!!! I thought that was crazy cause I don't even know if a normal wooden crat could withstand that kind of weight. Can you set 7200 lbs on a dog or cat carrier???? I don't think so!!! I see in the quotes posted here that the box has to be able to witstand 100 lbs from other things on top of it which is much more reasonable.
My personal thoughts are just that this guy at the airport was some old guy who didn't like the idea of snakes being shipped because I have never heard of anyone having any issues shipping in styrofoam containers. Don't know if he misunderstood the regulations or if he just wanted to be difficult.

I will also say that all of Leon's packing materials were perfect for shipping. I was home on the east coast earlier this summer at which time I inspected the animal and got to have a look at what he was shipping in and it followed the guidelines of a post made here a little while back. I think it was labled something like "How to ship in Canada". So Leon did a great job with the shipping. We ended up going with Westjet, they were still very thorough in checking the contents of the box, packaging etc but they took it. It was either build a big a** wooden crate or have Leon drive 3 hrs with insane gas prices (I helped out a bit on the gas) to the Westjet airport. Thanks Leon for driving

I really hope that this is the only instance of problems with shipping here in Canada that we all come up against. It would make things difficult if everyone had to ship in wooden crates that "Had to be able to support 7200 lbs"!!!!

Thanks again Leon for the amazing animal and for the trouble you had to go through for the shipping!

Also, thanks to everyone here who posted for the info. Again, hopefully we won't see another instance of this in Canada anytime soon but keep us posted if you do!!!!

Thanks,
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Old 07-17-04, 10:42 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Makes sense Jon.
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Old 07-17-04, 01:54 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
I doubt plastic containers will be allowed in the near future, given that Air Canada is going EXCLUSIVELY to the slimmer jets that have NO HEATED CARGO.

They had talked about doing that, but it is on the "3 year plan" - which I guess changes quite a bit.

Without heated cargo, they would not accept any live animal shipments, which includes bringing your cat and dog with. And that just won't work, every Air Canada employee I've talked to about that is sure they won't be going all non-heated cargo, as it is more than just pets that need the heated cargo also - and they make a lot of money with heated cargo.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

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Old 07-18-04, 07:29 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Hey Dave,
Thanks for clearing any questions about my creditablitity.

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Old 07-18-04, 08:02 PM   #45 (permalink)
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WestJet doesn't have heated cargo and they accept live animals. Air Canada already has the waiver forms in circulation for when they make the switch. As your local cargo guy for a copy of one.
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