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Old 07-13-04, 03:16 AM   #1 (permalink)
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question about petitioning...

ok i'm thinking of starting a petition against the ban of exotic animals in windsor, ont., more specifically against the ban of keeping small exotics and reptiles. some species i realize are reasonably banned (large carnivorous mammals, venomous snakes, XL boids, gators, etc). i know there are some people who are able keep these who may argue but these are potentially lethal and a majority of people aren't equipped to keep these.

SO my question is, does anyone know approx. how many signatures i'd need to even approach the city council? or is this a hopeless cause altogether. working in an exotic petstore should definately help me get signatures.

n e suggestions or info would be greatly appreciated.

thanks,
emily
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Old 07-13-04, 04:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I think that attempting to fight the by-laws regarding bans on specific exotics is equal to painting a bullseye on your chest and prancing in fron of a bylaw officer with an armful of banned snakes. My theory on by-lawed animals is "What they don't know isn't going to hurt them (or more specifically, you)".
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Old 07-13-04, 04:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I think that attempting to fight the by-laws regarding bans on specific exotics is equal to painting a bullseye on your chest and prancing in fron of a bylaw officer with an armful of banned snakes. My theory on by-lawed animals is "What they don't know isn't going to hurt them (or more specifically, you)". IMO.
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Old 07-13-04, 05:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
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but i meant that so many of our customers are from windsor (the store is in tecumseh where these animals ARE legal). so if i got the ban removed, we'd get a lot more business. the ban makes no sense to start with. every surrounding town in the county has no ban whatsoever. i dont really live in windsor, so its not so much for me. it's more of because i'm looking to buy a house but because of the ban i'm staying out of windsor.
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Old 07-13-04, 05:58 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I've never heard of a by-law regarding exotics be overturned due to a petition. Regardless of how many people you get to sign it, there would be 1000 that wouldn't. In my opinion, it's a lost cause. When have you ever heard the gov't admitting that they were wrong AND correcting their 'mistake'? In essense, that's what you're trying to get them to do. It's a task I personally would not wish to undertake, but more power to you if you decide to.
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Old 07-13-04, 07:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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well petitions must work, otherwise no one would do them right? what's the difference between one type of law and another to a council. it's the people that just bend over and take it that makes these council-people think that laws are written in stone. i'm just plain sick of people who are like 'just sit areound and deal with it'... stick up for yourself and your rights. for every person who is a leader there are tons of followers, and if your bending over and taking it then you're following, but not the cause you think is right, just the one you've been told to believe can't be contested.
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Old 07-13-04, 07:53 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Ok. Good luck then.....
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Old 07-13-04, 07:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Don't listen to Mykee.

He shoots down every single mention by anyone of making any attempt to change the by-laws or educate the people who pass them. Apparently it's better to be a criminal with no rights, than to change a dumb law.

Unless you come right out and say "I have illegal animals in my house and would like someone to come search it" they can't do a heck of a lot.

As long as they're not visible to the public from outside or the front door, and there haven't been complaints of "dangerous animals", you should be fine.

You don't have to state on the petition that you even have such animals. The petition would be about changing the law so that people *can* have them. Finding places to post them might be hard. You could end up having to go door to door. If you're in school, start a herp club and get the local kids together to start a plan of action. Kids who are smart and speak out well are darlings to the press.

Someone here in St. Thomas recently petitioned to have driveway basketball hoops made legal again. Apparently some dorks decided it was bad for kids to be able to have fun. The petition stated that they needed to collect X number of signatures before a specific date in order for the petition to be heard by council. So before starting your petition in earnest, find out what the local procedure is, then work out your plan of attack.

Good luck
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Old 07-13-04, 08:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
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well, i agree with mykee that you will never get the govt. to admit a mistake, but like he said all the power to you, i hope you do succeed,
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Old 07-13-04, 09:20 PM   #10 (permalink)
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well i'm not looking to get ontario laws changed, just a little windsor by-law. from what i've been reading on the city council website, people win petitions on by-laws all the time. i'm not asking to legalize stem-cell research, abortions, religious human sacrifices, or captial punishment. it's just keeping herps as pets like every other city and town does already without problems.

thanks so much for the support Cruciform!!!

...and to the rest who have or will post negatively, just sit around and wait until your local government does the same or makes it so you can only masterbate in a closet, with the lights off, with a permit to do so.
i'd rather do it the legal way and feel good about owning herps instead of being worried someone might see them and have them taken away. thats just plain stupid to live in that kind of fear!

n e way this post was actually only meant to find out if anyone knew HOW MANY signatures and if it was just going to be too many to bother, not if the cause itself was a lost one. sorry if i'd worded that in a confusing way.


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Old 07-13-04, 10:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
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If I may be so bold as to speak for the people who are "just plain stupid to live in fear": I do not live in fear of being 'caught' by the big bad awful by-law officers. However, I am a responsible reptile owner in that regardless of law, I keep my reptiles inside and away from people that might have a problem with me/them. If such a by-law is passed in Windsor as you would like, it would be only a matter of time before some idgit goes for a walk with a 'now legal' reptile around his/her neck: "'cuz it's not against the law" AND IT WILL HAPPEN. (I've seen it in Toronto many times, in bars, streets and such...) disturbing even one person who is offended and petitions Council to ban said reptiles AGAIN and puts even a half-a$$ed effort into it; DONE. Even stricter laws, congratulations. I don't hide in a closet with my snake(s) fearing anyone from "finding me out". I'm also not a "criminal with no rights" as Mike so crudely put it, there are by-laws everywhere, and it doesn't stop I'd guess more than half of 'us' from owning what we want, 'we're' just smart about it. It's their right to pass a by-law, but a forced education on someone who is not receptive is just futile, especially if you are putting your reptiles in harms way in the process. They've made up their minds, the laws are there either deal with it responsibly by not flaunting your banned exotics, or move to a city that is more accepting. These are my personal feelings on the matter, and I quite honestly have nothing against fighting for your right to own exotics. I own quite a few myself, but why try to overturn a law THAT DOESN'T AFFECT YOU? What are you attempting to gain? To own a banned exotic? You already do. Is it to drum up more business for your employer? You deserve a raise. I rant, However you have taken my posts, knwo that I truly wish you the best of luck with your attempt, and I hope you suceed. Let us know how it turns out. Good luck.
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Old 07-13-04, 11:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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A petition doesn't "force" them to be educated. It allows the people seeking to be heard a chance to voice their concerns before council. The signature requirements are simply there so that every whacko off the street doesn't end up in front of council.

It hurts no one to educate the people who make the laws so that they can differentiate between responsible owners and idiots.

I get so sick of your negative crap when responding to people. When new people come in and start asking questions because they have the wrong setup for their animal or haven, you typically snap at them before providing information. And it's useful info, and yes they should do their homework first, but talking to them as if they're an idiot right off the bat doesn't make people receptive to that information.

If you're so adamant about not fighting the by-laws in your community then by all means do absolutely nothing. After all, it doesn't affect you.
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Old 07-14-04, 12:32 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Decaf.
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Old 07-14-04, 12:44 AM   #14 (permalink)
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By the way Spanky, I was simply stating the other side of this scenario. I didn't respond arrogantly, rudely or even disrespectfully. Nor did I attack you for stating your views. Grow up. If you don't like my responses, there's no need to be rude, most of us are adults here, respond intelligently. Don't resort to being mean. Mean people suck.
This is usually also the point where a Moderator comes in and deletes the thread on queue....
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Old 07-14-04, 01:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
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ok problem solved: i wasn't asking if it'd work or not. i was asking how many sigs i'd need to work of if it was an unreasonable amount that may not be possible or feasable. so you coming in and "simply stating the other side of this scenario" was unnecessary and it was a little rude to assume that what you said was in any way helpful. i'm already determined i'm going to try, and was only trying to see if anyone had any further and helpful information on how to go about this.
what you said was like someone telling you they're pregnant and you telling them to get an abortion when they ask if you have any tips to pregnancy.

sorry, but it was a little harsh, and i did take some offense to it.
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