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Old 05-30-04, 12:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I wouldn't go so far as to say he was lying about the species of gecko. Turner's geckos are very similar to Bibron's in appearance and there is some thought that because Turner's overlap into Bibron's range (and not the other way around), importers have been shipping them, mistakenly, as Bibron's. Bibron's are not CITES protected but they are from South Africa and like countries like Oman, export is illegal but if the geckos had somehow travelled to a legal area, they could be collected. I think he is young and is less willing to accept that what he has are not Bibron's. It makes little difference to me since he is caring for them as Turner's. All the online literature that explains Bibrons' care is actually about Turner's gecko. I have a feeling he knows what he has aren't Bibron's and that he is trying to save face. Why else would he accept 15 geckos that may never breed with his?

Honestly, my mind says cut the deal loose and find another buyer. My heart says I shouldn't cut him off just because he is 13. At 13 even I stretched the truth now and then.
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Old 05-31-04, 12:28 AM   #17 (permalink)
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even know im young 18, i would have to agree and not sell it to him. there are responsible younger herp keepers out there but at 13 you cant legally work and that my present some problems when it comes to carring for them. i know when i was 13 i wanted a BP more than anything and almost bought one. now i know it would have been a bad idea. i knew alot but didnt have the resourse to care for it. im glad i waited to get one
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Old 05-31-04, 05:49 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Seems like you have 2 concerns. One for the wellfare of yor animals given that he's so young. I wouldn't hold his age against him in that respect (since we have so many first rate teenage keepers here as an exammple), but some of the other aspects you mention do seem suspect, so I think you should talk it out with him until you either feel comfortable with the deal, or decide to walk away.

The second concern you seem to have is a legal one. A 13 year old cant really be held to a contract. He's not old enough. I'd get the parents involved since they are the ones responsible anyway. This is the cost of being a minor, and if he's a responsible and experienced "breeder" as he claims to be, he'll understand that this is a legal formality you need to go through to protect yourself. If he cant understand this, you're better off not doing the deal anyway.

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Old 06-04-04, 08:08 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Thanks to everyone who gave me input. I took your advice and my own instinct and decided I could not sell to the minor or his parents. I will put the ad back up in the classifieds.

EDIT: I did increase the price a little from the original but I added an OBO. I feel I am justified since I did put addition money into feeding/keeping them over the past few weeks. I don't want anyone to think I didn't sell to the minor just because I wanted to increase the price.

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Old 06-04-04, 08:55 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Hey Mike, I was actually considering getting into Either Spider geckos or Namibs. Just curious though, If I were to approach you would you have a problem selling to me?
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Old 06-04-04, 10:38 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally posted by JeffT
Hey Mike, I was actually considering getting into Either Spider geckos or Namibs. Just curious though, If I were to approach you would you have a problem selling to me?
(Why do I feel like this is opening a can o' worms).

Yes, I would have a problem but I will explain why. Before I began selling reptiles - and keep in mind I don't sell many - I made it my own policy not to sell to any minors under any circumstances. Well, there are actually two exceptions: 1) I know the minor personally and trust him, or 2) I communicated through phone/email/etc., trusted the minor's abilities and met with a parent at the time of sale. Of course this means I would only sell to a local minor customer. The deciding reason I decided not to sell to the minor who I started this thread about is because of point 2. He was a seemingly knowledgeable person aside from a few things he said that confused me. But there was no way I would be able to meet a parent, trust it was a parent, or otherwise know I was speaking to a legitimate guardian without meeting face to face. The only reason I even stopped to think was that I believed in the kid and debated my own policy.

I know people sell animals to minors all the time and I know there are many minors in the business but this is a policy I have made and if I don't stick to it, my value as a "breeder/seller" is worthless. I may be the only person who feels this way but I'm not a business. I'm just a guy with a website and the occasional extra animal to sell. Will I lose potential buyers this way? Sure. But I'd rather lose them now than lose the animal and the money when an angry parent demands the money back.
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Old 06-07-04, 02:31 AM   #22 (permalink)
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My 2 cents. I don't believe in seeling any live animal to a minor, to the parents, not a problem. My reason ? I got a call from a friend once about a savannah monitor found in a closet by the parents. The person that sold the animal asked a lot of questions to the kid that was buying it and he seemed like he knew a lot about monitors so the sell went through.
Well, the parents had no idea he had it. It was fed 1 pinkie a week (crickets make too much noise) had a peanutbutter lid for a water dish, newspaper for substrate, screen top and no light or heat source. I did my best to try to save the poor animal but it was too late. Kidney failure was already started and calcium deficiency was too far to save.
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Old 06-07-04, 04:45 AM   #23 (permalink)
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And my 2 cents....even professionals have problems with these situations. I worked at a pet store years back - the store sold puppies (I won't even go into how that makes me feel in retrospect), and one night a brother & sister came in, with a middle aged women they said was their mother.

They bought a puppy, the "mother" signed all the papers/contract, they paid cash (the kids actually handed me the cash)....2 days later, on my day off, the boss calls me at home....the "mother" was a next-door neighbor, the kids' parents didn't know they'd bought a puppy, the kids were keeping it in a box in their room, and the REAL parents just wanted that @#$@#$ dog OUT OF THEIR HOUSE and their kids' money back!

Of course, we had to do a return/refund....VERY happy parents, the next-door neighbor "mother" denied being in on it (even tho her signature was all over the papers, she said the kids must have forged it), and the puppy was returned to the store covered in lice eggs! Which of course meant more money out the door in vet bills...much less the stress the puppy had been under.....

We even had parents wanting to return tropical fish their kids had bought....

There are a lot of very responsible, intelligent young animal lovers out there (I have 3 of my own), but....I think you did the sensible thing, both legally and for the welfare of your animals.
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Old 06-07-04, 08:43 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I am only 17 and i am very experanced with reptiles but i understand where you are coming from but if you don't sell to him then he will just get it of some body else. So if you fax, email his parents a contract to sign and put in the contract that you will check on the reptile every 3 months for the first year and if he sell then he must notify you and you must have first refusal or if the animal gets sick he must give back the gecko if the sickness was his fault lack of heat or food ect. And he won't get any money back . But what you are doing is raciest because he is 13 doesn't make him incompatent and doesn't mean the reptile won't get a good home.
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Old 06-11-04, 06:57 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Actually, it wouldn't be racist, it would be ageist:-).

Sean, something that you should realize, being the competent teen that you are, is that not all teens are like you. Since we make rules that fit the majority (or often the lowest common denominator, which is even more frustrating), those that are competent are often penalized. This applies to lots of things in life, btw!

The parents could really only sign a contract as you describe if they planned to be responsible for all of the things necessary to look after the animal. Odds are, they aren't.

"...but if you don't sell to him then he will just get it of some body else. " By this logic, why not sell cigarettes and alcohol to teens too? After all, they'll just get them somewhere else if one person doesn't.

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Old 06-11-04, 09:29 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Personally, even when I was underage, I wouldn't sell or encourage selling ANY animal to a minor!
Be it snake, lizard, or hamster!

I have seen kids get hamsters, throw them in boxes, with news paper, and some food and a BOWL of water, (hamsters suck at using bowls of water) they would get wet tail or drown and the parents would find out and demand a refund.

Not all teens are capable of properly taking care of the animals. And if they truely want the animal. then they can either wait, or get parental permission.

Plus you are making an oral contract with the minor, and minors are legally not allowed to enter into any kind of contract without parentel permission. (atleast in the U.S)
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