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Old 05-29-04, 06:55 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I'm confused? Its should be included in the cost of the animal, meaning that I should charge $500 for a $500 dollar animal, getting $488 in actuality,
That's how I look at it.
Incidently, BoidKeeper is now offering free handeling and packaging fees on all snakes. Translation: Cost for handeling and packing are included in my price.
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Old 05-29-04, 11:37 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Good post Jeff. Just by reading some of the replies I'll have to state that some people still don't get it. This talk of TAX FREE $ & "it didn't cost you nothing for the babies as you were keeping the parents anyway" etc. Some will always remain CLUELESS LOL People seem to forget that these animals were aquired as babies & raised for years prior breeding. I didn't see any examples involving $30-$50 snakes which make up large protions of most CDN Colubrid breeders collections. I make about $5 off a $30 snake if I am LUCKY. OVERHEAD is a big word that most people unless they actually understand business would never even consider. Glad to see the posts that make people think its not all gravy & the literally 100's of hours of work a month we put in might actually be worth something too. HECK Favelle aren't you a Millonaire already selling all those snakes for 100s of $ you must be. Good Reality Check Post. Mark
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Old 05-29-04, 12:20 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Great post guys!

I have spent $1000's (12-15?) on my collection/setup. That means animals, housing, heating, feeders, supplies, shipping, building supplies and so many little things that I can't even recall. That doesn't even TOUCH on the time that goes into keeping a medium-large collection and the offspring. And then there is the web site.... sure it's free because I know how to do it myself, but it takes time.... everything takes lots of time.... time and money. But hey, I love every minute of it.

But I agree full-heartedly that people don't realize the work and effort that go into this stuff. They just see the cutch of 20 babies worth $250 each and think it's all free money... not so much.

About the first topic of shipping costs... that's a tough one. I think it just has to be part of the cost of doing business. Just like the racks they live in and the food they eat... part of the cost. I suppose you could always say "will only ship on orders more than $500" or something like that but what will that do to your business? Who knows?
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Old 05-29-04, 01:03 PM   #34 (permalink)
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That's why you "full time breeders" ought to get a real job and a real paycheque. Bunch of lazy slobs.

>snicker<

I'm with Roy, selling to private people sucks b/c people suck. I'm in no ways a full time breeder, I keep my collection for myself, I lose money every year, hundreds even but hey, it's my hobby and I do have a full time job which I despise utterly, but it pays for the bills and let me keep my snakes for myself, instead of relying on them to pay for themselves and my own livelihood. I can't deal with the stress of a unreliable monetary source.

I'm mostly a buyer rather than a seller and I can tell you, that seeing extra charges tacked on gets my goat. When I see snake for X amount, I want to pay X amount plus Y for shipping from AC, WestJet or whoever and I already know their shipping rates. I don't want to buy a snake and then the buyer say, hey, I need $12 to pack it all up. It just seems like money grabbing to me. Just include it in your price for goodness sakes!

Thing is snakes aren't *that* hard to breed. Some one like myself who has just a few litters each year, can undercut any large scale breeders b/c I don't have to recouperate any costs. I just wake up at 5am, go to work, and get paid every two weeks anyways. However, b/c I know a lot of breeders and don't want to piss anyone off, I price what I have according to the market, and sell cheap to people I know and like. However, not everyone is going to be nice and not step on the breeders' toes.

It's the buyers who rule the market, not the sellers. That's why dollar stores are so popular. No one thinks of the behind the scenes. All they think is, I want to save as much as possible and get what I want. You will cut yourself at the throat if you tack on more charges to people who are already taxed to death.

Breeders can go on and on about how they have to pay for this and pay for that, but you weren't forced into it. Companies fail to thrive all the time, and no one will weep if someone doesn't make it.

Anyway, this turned out a bit long, and for anyone who didn't get it. I was joking in the first paragraph.

I surely admire you full time breeders. Business and salesmenship just aren't my gig. That and having to wait for snakes to breed and lay eggs so that I can put food in my belly, is just too unreliable to me. Best of luck to those of you have chosen that way.
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Old 05-29-04, 02:25 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Excellent posts Unkie and niece! Couldn't have said it better!

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At least more than some one trying to bargain down $5 at a table at a reptile show from a local clown breeding out of a toolshed.
I, for one, happen to know a very reputable breeder who just happens to breed from a shed outside. Not everyone with a "facility" or "zoo" (so they say) is a good breeder. That statement seems too judgemental and stereotypical.
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Old 05-29-04, 03:13 PM   #36 (permalink)
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It also hard to garner sympathy for your shipping expenses when breeders make post like this.

One male Pastel gets me this!

I realise most snakes dont generate that kinda cash but to go from "one of these gets me one of these" (pastel=overhead projector) to should I charge for handling fees???

A minimum order that you feel make it worth you time may be the way to go.
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Old 05-29-04, 03:31 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Marisa rules, plain and simple. Ha ha!

Simon- I am afriad I will not be very popular as a reptile breeder, because if anyone came to me, and complained over 5 bucks, I would tell them where they can find that 5 bucks, and it wouldnt be pretty.
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Old 05-29-04, 03:35 PM   #38 (permalink)
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IMO, its the cost of doing business (overhead), and a small price to pay for "Supplemental" income which may be tax free

Small price to pay? $720 (minimum) isn't a small price to me. That's 1/2 a mortgage payment. That's 2 car payments. That's 2 months of food groceries. That's 1/3 of my new projector + screen (heh heh). That's 5 months of gas for my car.

And what if it isn't "supplimental" income? What if its a person's SOLE income. Mine isn't tax-free. I claim it.

Mmmm......candy. They have candy in Sask Ryan??
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Old 05-29-04, 03:37 PM   #39 (permalink)
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well when you pack up your animals and head to a show do you raise your prices to cover the cost of the trip???

Yep. Shows are RETAIL transations and each animal is around 10-15% higher. Go to ANY show and look at the prices, then look at a breeder's site for SIMILAR QUALITY and it'll be slightly higher. Always has been. There will be exceptions with people that have no name and can't move animals other than a show, but generally its a little higher at a show.
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Old 05-29-04, 03:44 PM   #40 (permalink)
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IMO, I think that since you set the price for the animal, you then have the right to charge the buyer your out-of-pocket expenses (within reason of course, there was a post on this site a while ago, and the seller had an animal listed, stating the price for the animal, and quantified it by mentioning that the price was was it was due to the cost of food that the snake had eaten over X amount of time). Sorry, a rant of sorts.. Yes, you should get $500 when you charge $500 for said animal. If the buyer is willing to pay the cost of the animal, and then bitches about a $12 handling fee, then he can certainly find that animal elsewhere. You're not Wal-Mart (no offense) you're not taking in millions of dollars a year selling your wares, we're all grassroots, and at this level, these are costs that should not be 'bitten" by the seller.


GREAT post Mykee. I agree, for sure. But its going to be hard to convince the buying public, ha ha!
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Old 05-29-04, 04:10 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Great posts Annette and Roy! AND Cruciform! Thanks for taking the time to reply! You gyus rock. Input is all I asked for, and you guys gave it in spades!

Much appreciative.
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Old 05-29-04, 04:19 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I agree for the most part latazyo. With everything EXCEPT this line:

when you order products from a dealer online you are not expecting to pay extra for the cardboard box they ship it in...they have already included that overhead cost into the price of their product

I order stuff for my real job EVERYDAY. I'll show you the invoices because we get DINGED for EVERYTHING. Boxes, packing peanuts, bags, everything. No question. I order computer parts for myself and friends online every day. We get charged for EVERYTHING. Always. Its never been a question of not being charged. Almost every industry does it. Go to any wholesaler or retailer and look at their order invoices. You'd be surprised at what they get charged for to bring stuff in.

I agree with the overhead stuff though. That's the stance I've taken the last 10 years, but I thought this would be a fun discussion and an eye-opening topic for people who seem to think we are "cleaning up" in terms of money.


Cheers.
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Old 05-29-04, 04:21 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Excellent post Jeff helps get the majority of people thinking in a different light (breeders aside of course) If you look at it in a total cost stand point over a whole lot of animals it could be an alarming amount of money per year. Concept3 a lot of breeders make very little money when and if they do the bottom line at the end of the year cost versus sell. You have to figure in energy costs food costs meds housing costs and so on and so forth. Lets do a cost over sell for Colombian boas for example and see what we come up with(very rough figures) Energy consumption for one male and one female for one year $100.00 each give or take food bills for one year 2 Jumbo rats every 2 weeks @$3.00 each times 2 snakes $312.00(rabbits cost more) say one vet trip per year $150.00 Lets say the female drops 25 little ones and you hold on to them for 6 weeks to give them 4-5 feedings and a couple of sheds before selling them. Energy cost for each in an efficient rack system 50 cents each snake per week times 25 snakes times 6 weeks $75.00 four feedings each at 50 cents per feeding $50.00. Doing the math on the above we would get a total cash outlay of.

Parents inclusive costs per anum
$660.00

Offspring costs (ready to ship)
$125.00

Total outlay
$785.00 and that is if all the neonates ship out and you don't have to keep housing them and feeding them for any length of time.

$785.00 divided by 25 neonates equals $31.40 per snake plus $12.00 for packaging equals $43.40 per snake. Even if you got $150.00 on average per each this leaves $ 107.60 per snake. If we figure in our time based on what we make in our jobs (hourly or salary) the above $107.60 shrinks really fast and probably becomes a break even or a net loss. High end animals will net you more and cost you more. I take my hat off to all of the breeders here in Canada the majority of them do it because it is something they love to do and if they were in it for just the money we would currently have a lot less animals to choose from on the market and we would all suffer.


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Old 05-29-04, 04:23 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Exactly Mark I!!! That's why I specifically said for people not to reply if they thought I was just bitching about making money off of snakes. They missed the point entirely.

Thanks Mark. Ha ha, I'm not even a "Thousandare" yet, LOL!
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Old 05-29-04, 04:26 PM   #45 (permalink)
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That's exactly what I wanted to hear Katt!! I'm not complaining, I just wanted FEEDBACK. You know, what people THINK about the subject. Market research if you will.

Thanx for replying. You've further re-affirmed what I've been doing the last 10 years, and that's just that its the "cost of business", like feeding and stuff. It sucks, but its a part of the life of being a breeder.

Cheers!
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