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Old 09-19-02, 09:09 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I really like the pic. How about "I've got my eyes on you".
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Old 09-20-02, 01:06 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Old 09-20-02, 09:17 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Sure Cas! Go ahead and play with it. It will be interesting to see what we can do.
Thanks for all the compliments guys!

Vanan
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Old 09-20-02, 09:36 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Nice pics Vanan

although there is one thing that agravates me. I really dislike ppl who duct tape their mouth .. it is stressfull for no reason on the Spectacle .. especially the fact that chances are he was duct taped all day .. Just my 2 cents .

I simply see no reason to do so - they can be properly handle without doing so .. and if they can't, then don't bring them to a show..

AWESOME pic again.
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Old 09-20-02, 11:25 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I think that the benefits gained in other people seeing this animal and NOT buy a camien, far outweigh, what discomfort Lestat went through for one day.

The duct tape is there for safety, I don't know of too many camiens that would allow handling and not take a nip at their handler or those who are touching it.
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Old 09-20-02, 07:17 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Hmmm.....

Maybe if the caiman doesn't "allow" handling, maybe he shouldn't be handled?
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Old 09-20-02, 10:45 PM   #22 (permalink)
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if the caiman cannot be handled by its owner without biting then it should by no means brought to a show.

great pics anyway and howe about "look of death"
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Old 09-21-02, 12:07 AM   #23 (permalink)
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There are other ways of handling this animal without concerns for the crowd being bitten & someone being injured. IMO taping, is terribly cruel.

Tay
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Old 09-21-02, 08:56 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Well it wasn't my animal and didn't tape the animal myself, but I would like to know why taping the animal is cruel. Crocodilians have weak jaw muscles to open the mouth and so litte tape is needed to keep the mouth closed. As well, many 'professional' herpers use tape to close the mouths of potentially dangerous creatures.

I fail to see how "terribly cruel" taping is compared to oh say defanging. I admit, terribly STRESSFUL, but cruel I don't see, the tape is certainly not strong enough to rip off any scales.

Myself, it was an incredible experience. I have never seen a large spectacled camien and I really learned how stupid it is to buy one. I think the folkz who saw Lestat too came away with more knowledge. Plus I learned a little about camiens I hadn't known before. I woud never have bothered learning 'bout them if I hadn't seen one in the flesh. I'm sure the same goes for quite a number of people at the show.

I think Lestats bad days far outweighs what he's done for the other camiens whose lives may be saved now that a few more people know how dumb it is to keep one of these creatures without proper facilities.

I'm not really interested into getting into a big debate about this, as it can be said by some that keeping any reptile in captivity (or bird for that matter) is terribly cruel. We have a lovely person named Christine Shcramm who uses this argument against us in BC and has tried to systematically get the muncipalities of the GVRD to BAN the keeping of reptiles.

It's all your perspective. My definition of cruelty is any act that will leave lasting damage, whether physical or emotion or mental. Lestat had just a few hours of not being able to open his mouth. No scales were ripped off, so to me is not cruel.

That's my opinion folkz and if you'd like to dicuss further, then please feel free to PM me or mail me, as I'd rather that this thread went along the lines of "Great photo Vanan" as that is why Vanan posted it this picture, not to start a grand debate about the cruelties of taping.
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Old 09-21-02, 09:54 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Well if you didn't want to 'discuss' this issue, then why such a lengthy and involved diatribe?


Now think about what you said about jaw muscles and look at the things at the end of your arms, they're called hands. If you can't use those to hold those jaws closed, then perhaps it's not a good idea to hold the animal. Tape is 'stressful' how do you feel when your mouth is taped shut? You have the advantage of knowing what is going on, the animal doesn't, put yourself in his place, one of his two defenses is rendered and he has no idea why he can't open his mouth, not to mention that he uses his mouth (breathing) as a means to 'cool' himself, and unless you're Dr. Doolittle, you can't exactly explain it to him. Furthermore, taping encourages 'redneck' idiots to do the same thing and these idiots use duct tape and such types of adhesive tapes that end up causing injury. I've seen such damage.

The reason for my responding here is because it's necessary for others to see the varied viewpoints and the reasoning for those viewpoints as a means to educate themselves, so that one voice and one opinion is not the only one heard. It is not intended to start a flame war on the site, if someone needs to do that, they can private mail and the recipient can always report them to their ISP.

No disrespect intended Katt, even with the 'hands' statement, I am merely stating the obvious for one reason alone, that being that children or others less educated in proper handling might be reading the threads and if you don't break it down, some will take it and run in dangerous directions with the information, or should I say the lack thereof.

Tay
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Old 09-21-02, 12:13 PM   #26 (permalink)
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.....

How does one measure emotional and mental damage??
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Old 09-21-02, 01:05 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Muzzled or not?

Dun think they actually have a meter to check levels of emotional or mental damage, but I'd think it'll be the same way Animal Welfare officers gauge the amount of mental or emtional stress a dog or cat would go through. This is gauged by symptoms an animal shows i.e. lack of appetite, behavioural changes, destructive behaviour.
As for my take on this subject, I do NOT claim that I totally agree with what the caiman was going through, by posting that pic. Which is why I cropped off the part with the duct tape. As for what I feel about it...I think there's pro's and con's. The animal is definitely stressed, just like any 'wild' animal being exposed to humanity up close. Taping it's mouth shut prevents itself from being injured and injuring someone. A crocodilian's main defense is it's mouth. Taping it would cut that off thus stressing it, but what degree? That caiman lives in the same apartment, roaming free with it's owner. He the caiman) is not outright vicious and does tolerate handling, but taping it is a safety measure when dealing with the public. I've yet to hear of anyone transporting a crocodilian without taping it. How bout muzzling of dogs? Vicious breeds (deemed by the city) have to be muzzled. What about that?
As for the hand being able to hold it shut, yes it's possible. Very possible with caimans BUT how long is the hand gonna be holding it shut while the public views it? Thus a more permanent measure. BTW, that tape was only wound around once around it's snout. Not doubled or tripled. That says enough about the strength of it's jaws.
This argument is not one to be resolved IMO, just like venomoid snakes etc etc. To each his own. Different people have different priorities. Some value education over temporary stress to an animal. Heck even the snakes are stressed a little at shows, whether handled or not. What then? Too many open questions. Oh well, just wanted to say my piece. It is good to express opinions so that other readers without any, can form them. Also not to give anyone a false idea that it's ALL ok, like what sophia mentioned. Good point.
Ok how bout this for a title "Mmmph..mmph!" lol! Take care all!

Vanan
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Old 09-21-02, 01:05 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Oops! Meant to paragraph it right but didn't leave a line. Sorry folks!
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Old 09-21-02, 01:42 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Ha ha.....

Great post!
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Old 09-21-02, 02:16 PM   #30 (permalink)
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While I agree it's a saftey issue, rope doesn't have the ability to rip off scales like tape does, I realize it doesn't look as pretty, but most handlers that I've met and watched, use rope rather than tape. The issue about the whole taping or roping of the jaws that concerns me is the 'period of time' that the jaw is held shut, since the holding open of the mouth is the way that crocodiles and alligators 'cool', or 'thermoregulate' themselves. I probably should have made that more clear and concise.

At shows which last for hours on end, a stressed animal's temperature goes up, much like your blood pressure when you're angry, the only way they can cool themselves out of the water, is through opening the mouth and taking on air while expelling body heat build up. That's where the cruelty of taping and roping for extended periods of time comes in. It's okay to rope in order to move and transport, but to keep them roped or taped for hours on end, uncovered with multitudes of humans milling around them stressing them further, is uncalled for. The tape on the other hand, now that's just something I find negligable because once those scales around the mouth are damaged, they're hard to keep clean and treated until they heal. There are some who will say, oh, but we use painter's tape, well somtimes the adhesive is stickier than you bargained for and that tape pulls off paint and laminate from moldings, think what it does to the animal, then there's electrical tape, that crap is just plain gummy when wet or handled too much. The worst I've seen yet is duct tape, it does some awful damage, it'll remove hair and skin from your body, what it does to the animal is horrible.

My point is, if you can't gate it off and keep it and the general public safe from one another at the shows, then perhaps you should wait until you can afford proper equipment. I'm all for education, but if your education causes damages to the animal, then what you're doing is perpetuating ignorance rather than educating.

Tay
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