border
sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum
 

Go Back   sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum > Community Forums > General Discussion

Notices

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-11-04, 09:56 PM   #61 (permalink)
Member
 
Cruciform's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan-2004
Location: St. Thomas
Age: 45
Posts: 1,242
S.N.A.K.E.S

Society of North American Keepers of Exotic Species
Cruciform is offline  
Old 02-11-04, 10:04 PM   #62 (permalink)
Member
 
Classic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb-2003
Location: East of Ottawa
Age: 44
Posts: 900
Send a message via MSN to Classic
lol. Sorry Ryan. Bad typo.

Brian
hwh
__________________
HighWaterHerps

Got Milks!

www.highwaterherps.ca
Classic is offline  
Old 02-11-04, 10:21 PM   #63 (permalink)
Please Email Boots
 
Join Date: Mar-2007
Posts: 1,867
Yes, bad typo, very bad

I should have realized it was a typo, my bad - I hope my reply wasn't too harsh, remember, I thought I was being called Rob <shudder>.

It's actually funny now.

Ryan aka Ryan
Scales Zoo is offline  
Old 02-12-04, 12:32 AM   #64 (permalink)
Member
 
Nett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar-2002
Location: Alberta, Canada
Age: 48
Posts: 474
Send a message via AIM to Nett Send a message via Yahoo to Nett
I am also trying to get intouch with several societies in the states ......See what they have encountered with this .......

Ken ........Yes this will be a HUGE topic at our next meeting ......
__________________
Annette Thompson
Wrapped Up in Reptiles
Check out the many new features on my website
www.wrappedupinreptiles.com
Nett is offline  
Old 02-12-04, 02:22 AM   #65 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jan-2004
Location: B.C.
Age: 40
Posts: 504
I just posted a reply to this on Bob Clark so if I'm being redundant I appologize. I doubt he's going to get very far with this. There are alot of high profile scientists openly working with the pet trade and speaking out infavour of conservation through commercialization (Mark O'Shea and Dr. Bryan Fry to name a couple). The biggest threat to wild populations is hardly the pet trade or even the skin trade, it's deforestation. Look at Madigascar and Brazil. Even South East Asia.

I can't help think of thousands of SPCAs full of abused and mistreated dogs and cats when he criticizes us. I used to take my clients to volunteer at the local SPCA and the only reptile I ever saw there was a green iguana, that was ironically being mistreated by them. They were feeding him dog food. They also wouldn't let me adopt him because they thought I would breed him.

I like what Australia has done with its licensing program for herps. The main problem as I see it with the trade is impulse buyers. I think I licensing policy were some compitancy must be shown and an expesive fee, would cut them out or limit them considerably. This issue came up locally recently and disappeared just a quick. A couselman wanted to ban all exotics and 'dangerous' dogs. The Canadian government is capable of some really bone headed *****, but I don't even think parliment is that stupid. We must speak out against it, I agree. People need to know that we do know something about keeping our animals healthy and well, and that these 'news stories' are the exception rather than the rule.
My $0.02
__________________
Shop smart, shop S-Mart!
kevyn is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 02-12-04, 02:47 AM   #66 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jan-2004
Location: B.C.
Age: 40
Posts: 504
I oh ya I'm sure our local ecosystems would go for a ***** if all our pythons, boas, monitors, vipers, and elapids escaped. It would be disaster right before they all FREEZE TO DEATH! Dumb a$$.
__________________
Shop smart, shop S-Mart!
kevyn is offline  
Old 02-12-04, 12:41 PM   #67 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Apr-2002
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 623
Send a message via MSN to Wuntu Menny
Jeez, Nett! Way to start something!!

Ok, I tried to read as much of the subsequent responses as I could, but as has already been stated, forgive me if I repeat a thing or two.

First off, I have to admit that I support the restriction of the rampant collection of WC herps for the retail market. While I agree with much of the initial statement presented, I believe that some sort of compromise can be reached that will satisfy both sides of the argument.

It might sound like an "I told you so", but anyone that knows me has read or heard me warning of this very development for some time. All the indicators have been in place and the atmosphere ripe for outside intervention for years. It should really come as no surprise that this sort of action has been proposed.

I fully believe that the majority of pet herps are kept in less than adequate conditions, I see it or hear about it almost every day. While I do as much as I can for mine, I'm no expert either and I'm sure there's room for improvement around here too. One only has to go as far as the nearest herp related forums to get a good idea of the general lack of knowledge and flawed husbandry practices prevalent in the community. I'm quite sure WSPA used our own communication networks to gather evidence in support of their cause.

Why here? That's pretty basic... We have no unity, no collective voice, no cooperation, and above all, no multimillion dollar herp related industry. WSPA could never launch this in the US or even Europe as the big dollar herp trade players would squash them like crickets with superior financed legal counters. Canada has maybe a handful of wholesale dealers and an equal number of distibutors of US and Euro made products. The market is simply too small to warrant defense from corporate interests.

As for the unity, etc. : If we could channel all the energy and dedication that we reserve for the verbal riots that regularly occur and focus it on a common goal, we would actually have strong representation. As some of you have already stated, the only truly effective means to countering this threat is with an equally organized and unified argument against it. I think this approach would have a far greater impact than any letter writing campaign undertaken by individuals. That's not meant to discount the significance of the letter writing, however. The flood of mail directed to the associated legislative body has always been a good way to make a point in a "democratic" society.

As far as the skin/meat arguments go, you're wasting your time trying point fingers. WSPA wouldn't have the proverbial snowball's chance by strolling into Indonesia or Madagascar and trying to impose their views on the populace. In all likelihood, they would wind up vanishing in the jungle never to be heard from again. The Cdn hobby has only existed for a very short time, maybe 30 years at best and less than half of that has been mainstream as opposed to existing on the fringe. The old world traditions have been around for thousands of years and are inextricably woven into the social and cultural fabrics of their respective regions. We are embryonic by comparison, and as such, we make a pretty good fish in a barrel.

Picking apart the credibilty or background of the lobbyist in question, I believe, is also a wasted effort. That's fine for discrediting a witness in court, but in this case it won't make any difference. If anything, it makes our argument appear weaker if we have to resort to that as opposed to offering valid, educated counterpoints. We're already have enough problems with the perceptions of the general public and the popular press, I don't think we need to tarnish that image any more than it already is.

Think this is just the beginning? I think you're right. As everyone is already aware, numerous provinces, states, and municipalities have been passing bylaws and ordinances in recent years banning exotics. These groups, including WSPA, are merely following the path of least resistance, a standard grassroots approach. Precedent has been established on a smaller scale, and now its time to take it to the federal level. If they succeed here, you can be sure that the next time the SPCA tries something similar in the US or Britain, they'll have a stronger case by citing WSPA's example.

Wanna do something about it? Well, many of you are already on the right path, just do it together and don't start bickering amongst yourselves or you'll wind up coming off like the Keystone Kops. Also, be prepared for some sacrifices. I've been informed that this is the fourth consecutive attempt on WSPA's part to shut the door. Every time they get turned back, they reword their proposal and submit it again, so I don't anticipate that they will get bored and go away. Some changes will take place, for better or worse.

Ultimately, we've had this coming. We've chosen to disregard or ignore events and situations that reflect directly on us for too long. Instead of taking some action or voicing opposition to unethical, immoral, or flat out illegal activities, we've left ourselves wide open for attack. While we've allowed ourselves to get bogged down in childish battles over trivial issues, someone's been quietly gathering support and momentum to stop the slaughter, (and it is slaughter) that we've opted to overlook.

I do believe its time to put up or shut up!

Lowell M. Shaw aka WM
__________________
Revenge is a dish best served cold...

With a side plate of steaming entrails,
And a nice Bordeaux!
Wuntu Menny is offline  
Old 02-12-04, 01:07 PM   #68 (permalink)
Member
 
Gary D.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb-2003
Location: Western Canada
Age: 46
Posts: 499
Send a message via MSN to Gary D.
Quote: "One thing that breeders need is a central bloodline registry, as detailed as those used by kennel clubs around the world. The ability to maintain varied bloodlines within the captive population without having to turn to WC would go far in arguing that responsible breeders can help perpetuate a species that may suffer losses due to human encroachment."

I invite anyone to read the information I have posted on the database at my site. I appologise that I have not yet relocated the site to a more browser friendly address, but I will also forward any info on requests PM'ed to me.

Canadian Boid Genetics Database


But more importantly I urge members to join or re-join their local herp club or society. I plan to work with the TARAS board to utilize the current efforts of existing societies and groups to front a more unified voice for the herp community. We have been given more than ample warning, now and in the past. It is indeed time to prepare our response.

Excellent post Lowell, and Annette thank you for bringing this article to the attention of this forum and others.

Gary Dawson
__________________
Have you tried the IGUANA? I hear it's great. IGUANA kabobs for all !!! EAT YOUR IGUANA, EAT YOUR IGUANA, EAT YOUR IGUANA, EAT YOUR IGUANA, EAT YOUR IGUANA, EAT YOUR IGUANA, EAT YOUR IGUANA, EAT YOUR IGUANA, EAT YOUR IGUANA, EAT YOUR IGUANA ... This message brought to you by ssEATYOURIGUANAss.com
Gary D. is offline  
Old 02-12-04, 02:45 PM   #69 (permalink)
Member
 
Cruciform's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan-2004
Location: St. Thomas
Age: 45
Posts: 1,242
Hey cool! I can finally get to the database, if only from work Maybe I'll just have to do my surfing through SSH from now on

Didn't anyone like my spiffy S.N.A.K.E.S. acronyn? :P
Cruciform is offline  
Old 02-12-04, 03:02 PM   #70 (permalink)
Member
 
Retic chic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep-2003
Location: Leader Saskatchewan
Posts: 244
Joining and being an active member of a herp club or society is only good if the societies mission is the same as your own. There are some good organizations out there, but often the actions of the members conflict with the mission of the society itself, and this causes trouble. If the members of a club or society share the same goals and ideas, the club wil be an effective force in educating the general public, and promoting responsible reptile ownership. It is the irresponsible, uneducated keepers of herps that cause the activists to get upset in the first place.

Just my 2 cents
__________________
I have learned silence from the talkative, tolerance from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, stranger, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
Retic chic is offline  
Login to remove ads
Old 02-12-04, 03:06 PM   #71 (permalink)
Member
 
Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2003
Location: Calgary, AB
Age: 41
Posts: 5,641
Send a message via MSN to Invictus
Your acronym rocked, Cruciform, and I just might use it if you don't mind.

Lowell - Excellent post. Save for one thing - you mentioned that letter writing is one way to go about it, but you imply it's not the most effective way - so what is? What are you proposing here? Come to the next TARAS board meeting, I can forsee us planning a course of action well into the wee hours.
__________________
- Ken LePage
http://www.invictusart.com
http://www.invictusexotics.com
Invictus is offline  
Old 02-12-04, 04:03 PM   #72 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Apr-2002
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 623
Send a message via MSN to Wuntu Menny
Ken, as I said, I believe that the organized, unified approach will have more power than the multiple campaigns of individual hobbyists. I think lines of communication need to be established and maintained between locales to share info and ideas on how to best defend against this proposed legislation. A singular, nationwide banner to represent all of us would seem to be the most logical means of contesting the motion currently on the table.

Nice try with the T word there! LOL! Due to mitigating circumstances, I'll be conducting my efforts from the periphery rather than the round table. Not to worry, you'll all be made aware of any constructive ideas I manage to dredge from the depths.

Also worth mentioning: Once you've been to a few of those brainspraining late night sessions on a wednesday evening, you probably won't be looking forward to them quite so eagerly! You guys need to put a timer on those meetings before you all go buggy!!
__________________
Revenge is a dish best served cold...

With a side plate of steaming entrails,
And a nice Bordeaux!
Wuntu Menny is offline  
Old 02-12-04, 07:33 PM   #73 (permalink)
Member
 
Lisa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun-2002
Location: Trenton
Posts: 6,075
Send a message via ICQ to Lisa Send a message via MSN to Lisa Send a message via Yahoo to Lisa
Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.

I invite anyone to read the information I have posted on the database at my site. I appologise that I have not yet relocated the site to a more browser friendly address, but I will also forward any info on requests PM'ed to me.

Canadian Boid Genetics Database
What about colubrid, lizard, amphib and invert breeders?

How about a whole exotic bloodline industry?
__________________
Neo-Slither (Snake fanatic mailing list) http://<br /> http://groups.yahoo.c...p/Neo-Slither/

May you live in interesting times.
Lisa is offline  
Old 02-12-04, 08:47 PM   #74 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Feb-2004
Posts: 6
First of all the WSPA hasn't done anything yet other than publish a seemingly innocent article about reptile welfare in Canada and then personally submit a very slanderous email to Lynn about herpers and the trade. If you read the article in their online journal carefully what is alarming is what isn't said. About the fact we (Canada) participate in CITES which is an existing body governing endangered species internationally, yes they never mention the skin and meat trade b/c they know that live collections do not amount to 1% of that trade and that would belittle their efforts. Their argument is flawed in many ways and CITES stats can prove the limited impact of wild collection of most species and proves the damage done by skin and meat collectors. Vigilance is important, many of us on the TARAS exec have seen this article and are quite aware of WSPA goals. Until they attempt something that takes away our rights there is little we can do to stop their rhetoric, this is still a free country for a little while longer and everyone can voice their opinions. Short of petitioning parliament to put "the right to own pets" in the constitution and sending what amounts to oppositional mail to the WSPA we sit and wait.
Patrick Wise is offline  
Old 02-12-04, 10:31 PM   #75 (permalink)
Please Email Boots
 
Join Date: Mar-2007
Posts: 1,867
Hey Pat, nice to see you on ssnakess.com, I hope to see you post more often.

I agree that it is just rhetoric at this point, as it has always been. I do have a feeling, that Rob and the like are positioning themselves to try and cause action (once again). Simple rhetoric or not, it has the potential to cause damage to the hobby if left without retort (whatever that may look like), would you not agree?

After the 3rd or 4th try, I'm sure they are learning something about what works, I don't think we should just "sit and wait".

I think it will be groups like TARAS, or HISS etc., that can try to bring some reasonable answers to the many questions that will be put forward in the next while. I think if we don't handle this in a responsible and proactive manner now, we will regret it in the future. It is too late to do something after they succeed at their goal, the time to plan is now.

Ryan
Scales Zoo is offline  
Login to remove ads
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:08 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2002-17, Hobby Solutions Inc.

right

SEO by vBSEO 3.1.0