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Old 02-10-04, 04:05 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grant vg
Also,
If you couldn't tell from my previous posts....
Its important not to meet resistence with resistence...
We have to first REALLY think about EVERYTHING WSPA is saying....and acknowledge that some of it MAY be true.
Regardless of whether we would like it to be true or not.
Then, Not work AGAINST it or DENY it, but to FIX it.
By going about things this way, not only does it get them off our backs and make them less likely to throw our attemps back in our face, it ALSO betters the hobby as a WHOLE ....in my opinion.

I agree.......And yes they do make some good points ......And if our voice was mixed with others we may have some inpact on what they would like to see happen ......
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Old 02-10-04, 07:25 PM   #32 (permalink)
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ok a lot of the it is true, but Captive breeding has been happening a lot, the reason why we still have WC, is cause pet stores are still willing to buy it! To stop WC reptiles, they must first stop the buyers!

They mentioned green igunna's and R.E.S turtles, well duh......there are a lot of those everywhere, cause people over breed them, and now we got people that doesnt want to take care of the poor thing anymore, so they give it to people like reptila or a friend that knows nothing about them. People buy baby R.E.S turtles and think awww its cute, i think im gonna get it. So they get it, and they grow into adults, this is when people stop thinking there cute, and throws them in a lake.

They have to be resonable about this whole thing, and think of the people that are able to keep these reptiles. About 80% of the people here in the site, are able to keep reptiles. A lot of "new people" come here and ask questions, and we are educating them. The reason why a lot of reptiles, become unwanted is cause they dont know what is up next for them. But i think they should be reasonable

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Old 02-10-04, 07:52 PM   #33 (permalink)
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It isn't only because of the pet stores that wild caught reptiles is still around. Why are there always new morphs coming in the states, most of the times, it's because the carrier of this defective genes is a wild caught animal. There will always be breeders that will give big money for new morphs (even if the animal is wild caught).
Plus, imagine if there were no more wild caught reptiles, imagine 30 years down the road, or maybe even 25 years from now, I am pretty sure inbreeding will have a big effect on these animals.
You need the different blood strains.

And if you look at it space wise, I do not know anyone who will give a appropriate size enclosure to a reptile. Yes it's not necessary for them to have a big space, and yes some reptiles will spend their whole life time in an area the size of a room in the wild. But take monitors for example, they travel big distances in the wild and no one here would be able to offer them that wide of an area (would be kinda bad to try and find him after).

But I also see benefical things about this.
If people do things correctly, we could be able to help certain reptile populations that are in danger. But at the moment, it is true the market is more on the selling point and not preservation.

Also, I doubt a reptile will have a better health in the wild than in captivity (excluding the keepers who don't give the proper care for the reptiles). In captivity, I am sure we feed them much more than they would eat in the wild. and most of the cbb specimens are free of parasites which can give them a longer life span.

We need to be careful on what we do with our reptiles. Most of us keep them in appropriate conditions but it is always the few that don't that will catch the media's eye...
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Old 02-10-04, 08:06 PM   #34 (permalink)
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These people shouldnt be aiming at reptiles period, aim at ANIAML ABUSE! stray dogs, cats, turtles that arnt suppose to be in our lakes.

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Old 02-10-04, 09:05 PM   #35 (permalink)
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What are we going to do when a vast majority of the natural habitat that the animals we keep disapears and we are disallowed to keep and propagate these animals. They go extinct.... This habitat distruction is happening all over the globe and it is increasing. Without the large amounts of breeders learning new ways to successfully breed and care for these reptiles I fear that in a few decades we will lose many important species to this planet. THAT IS UNACCEPTABLE!

I believe that captive breeding is essential knowledge that will save many animals from the fate of extinction. Why don't we go after the real problem - Exon, walmart, haliburton, ect... These Billion dollar corporations are kicking the planets a** and pose the largest danger to our herps not us keeping a pet ball python.....

Wow! You missed the big picture WSPA !!!!!!

We don't like to rant much but the ignorance shown by WSPA is disconcerting....

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Old 02-10-04, 10:30 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I have to aggree with Ryan and Katie. With the rate the habitat is disappearing there won't be any wild caught.

As for RES, I'm doubting there are many wild caught turtles imported legaly into canada, you need a permit to bring them in and they won't give permits for the pet trade.

As for protection of native species, many provices protect delicate native species, such as pygmy rattlers in ontario.

I think we have a bigger problem with freeroaming cats and dogs.
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Old 02-10-04, 10:45 PM   #37 (permalink)
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One of the biggest problem I see out there , not just with groups like WSPA and PETA , is that the whole herp world is misunderstood ......Herps have a bad rep . and so do their keepers......We are not going to change that by banning herp keeping .....The only way is through education ......The powers that be refuse to see that we have made leaps and bounds in education as well as keeping ......They seem to be looking at the few neg. things and not all the positive things that we have done over the years.......What really kills me is that these people honestly think that reptiles breed like crazy under the worst conditions .........LOL .......This in itself shows how little they do know about keeping and breeding reptiles......It seems that they have done nothing in the way of research and have nothing to back up these claims ........Hopefully when ever this report comes out it will give us more info on just what they think we are doing so wrong ........Then we can fully respond with facts and figures of our own .......

And the more people that write letters to them (professionally) and the more we let them know that this is not acceptable we might be able to get them to back down ......
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Old 02-11-04, 01:39 AM   #38 (permalink)
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As for protection of native species, many provices protect delicate native species, such as pygmy rattlers in ontario.
huh?? pygmy rattlers in Ontario???
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Old 02-11-04, 02:15 AM   #39 (permalink)
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...

Quote:
But did u read the emails??????? They are implying that they want to shut not only the WC trade but the trade as a whole cuz we dont look after these animals like they should be .........And that we are akin to the old zoos in the way we look after them ?????? I cant believe that they say these things with out a shred of proof .........And seem to have lil or no care for what we have done for education and how far we have come in our husbendry practices .......
Ha ha, yeah, I only read the article! The emails are a different story, I agree!

My main concern is not what they, or PETA or any of the other psycho groups think. Their minds won't change. Its ingrained. My concern is what the average shmoe thinks. What is going through the average person's head when he or she hears about reptiles as pets? That's what is the big question hear. Because whatever they think, will have an impact. Same with what the politicians think. Politicians probably aren't really concerned with animal welfare. They are concerned about PEOPLE who are concerned about animal welfare. They are concerned about money, and they are concerned about being in office as long as possible.

I don't know. I totally agree with Annette though. Writing professional-style letters to whomever concerned is a great idea. I think we should all take the time to write a few well-though out words down.

Cheers fellow herpers!
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Old 02-11-04, 11:05 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I'd urge some people to go to google and type in Rob Laidlaw reptile. His propoganda has been around for years, however he is accelerating the pace at which he is getting his twisted message out there.

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Old 02-11-04, 11:42 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Well Scales Zoo I must thank you for getting my anger level at ten before breakfast this morning. That guys stuff is just insane!

From the website WSPA (link to article: http://www.wspa.ca/press/2001/1001/301001_1.html )
"Laidlaw notes that both the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta and Health Canada advise against children under the age of 5 having direct or indirect contact with reptiles of any kind. As many reptile-associated Salmonella infections involve serious complications, including septicemia and meningitis, the two agencies go as far as to state that reptiles should not be kept in the home with children aged less than one year."

I don't see how this is a reason on their list of why some snakes and reptiles should be banned. Some of us don't have children, thanks.

Another qoute from another article on WSPA website...link to article: http://www.wspa.ca/reptiles/reports/...nddisease.html

"Excepting physical contact during basking, mating and territorial disputes, mutual touching is not noted to be a large part of an iguana's usual communications. So, for the captive iguana, the human touch may be perceived as anything from an attack to a minor annoyance."

Yeah I guess thats why when I open Roxy's (my 7 year old Green Iguana) cage and walk away, she comes out on her own and follows us out to the living room to sit on the couch and watch cars drive by. I geuss she feels constantly under threat during this. Yeah must be why she comes out on her own. Uh huh.

The thoughts and "facts" expressed in the reading I did this morning are scary. Personally I think we need to get together a group much like Grant VG suggested. At the very LEAST a group dedicated to responding to these articles and seding their writings to all people involved in this....the WSPA, the government, etc. If they are being allowed to voice their mostly wrong and non thought out opinions, we should have our own constant supply of information challanging theirs which is constantly sent out to any people involved.

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Old 02-11-04, 11:56 AM   #42 (permalink)
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I love this as well...link to full article: http://www.wspa.ca/reptiles/reports/...nclusions.html

"A dramatic reduction in cases of reptile-associated salmonellosis and other reptile-related diseases, can only be achieved when contact between reptiles and humans is substantially reduced or eliminated. Until that time, to reduce the possibility of disease transmission, anyone who physically contacts reptiles, or objects and surfaces that have been contacted by reptiles, should follow the guidelines set out by the Centers for Disease Control. As well, those persons identified as being particularly at risk should avoid all contact with reptiles. However, no amount of advice of this type, will protect the public from some indirect sources of infection, such as a reptile-keeper visiting a household, or through intermediary sources with which a carrier reptile or its keeper have had contact."

O.k. so basically they are saying that they have proof of a case of a reptile owner visiting someone else, and giving them salmonella? Where are their facts? Has this ever even happened! Or are they just spouting this off to further their cause. Are they even AWARE that chicken carries this and is in our homes RAW almost everyday? Do they even know that more children get salmonella from DOG TOYS laying around (such as bones) than they do reptiles?

They are ignoring facts. Its like me saying well cars are really dangerous but so are scooters so lets go after them even thought the injuries and cases are insanly minor in comparision.

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Old 02-11-04, 12:31 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Here are a few ideas.......

This was posted on another forum about this .......Some ideas and well thought out actions we can take .......

-New post-
I wrote a response to this that the private messaging system ate...

Bottom line is, the article is a load of lies, propaganda and outright crap that's intended to appeal to people who don't know any better and form a kind of foot in the door legislation that can later be expanded to meet the rabid anti-human ideals of these groups. Their goal is not better treatment for animals, it's not even no reptilian pets... it's no pets. No animals eaten as food and no service animals used. Ever.

Couple points, kinda quickly...

CITES pays very close attention to species collection numbers and the conditions the animals are shipped in, their website has a great many studies and papers which support the idea that animals are actually being treated well throughout the entire process. Yes, there are deaths and yes sometimes it has health effects but these are the minority, not the majority when it comes to situations surrounding exportation of fauna. Further, the countries most responsible for exportation into the pet trade have realized that they have a valuable sustainable resource on their hands and it has dramatically changed collection methods and numbers. When battaling anti-pet activists, be sure to have the most up to date numbers and facts possible, since most of what they use as a base for their propaganda comes from the somewhat naive times prior to regulation of international animal trade.

In order to fight them, grouping together with other herpers works well but you'll need additional support. Find someone working for Canadian fish and wildlife or the department of natural resources (whatever it might be called up there) who agrees with your cause and can act as a spokesperson... They may not be as credible as a genuine research biologist but voters trust uniforms. As sad as it is to say, make sure the person acting as a spokesperson for the group when it comes to media relations is clean cut, well spoken and somewhat attractive- it's perhaps not the best side of human nature but people don't listen to trolls (Which is why I never got to go on TV). When it comes to a written campaign, same thing goes... let the articulate people do the footwork and anyone who's not great at it can simply sign their name. Tirades and anger don't appeal to the masses in situations like this.

Get information on the groups you're opposing... In the United States, non-profits are legally obligated to make their financial records public. It is through this that PETA lost a lot of support, when they were proven to have been supporting eco-terrorism and nobody could figure out where the money to help animals actually was (But the high ranking leaders sure did have fat salaries).

Locate some quotes from the oppositions leadership which prove that they are psycotics... Anything having to do with rabid veganism or how people shouldn't own dogs or how a human child has less right to live than an animal usually works. A few such quotes were shown to General Mills executives and caused them to pull the HSUS calender that they had been including with some cerals as a prompotional campaign.

Back up your position with biology and be sure to combat bambi style stereotypes. Reptiles have pretty simple brains, they're not capable of much when it comes to thoughts or feelings other than hunger or fear, it's all stimulus leading to genetically ingrained responses. Prove this to be true and they'll be forced to abandon the arguments about environmental enrichment... A leopard gecko is not and never will be close to a chimpanzee or a dolphin.

Associate yourself with other legitimate animal groups, be they animal welfare or animal hobbiests. By doing so on a local level you can prevent those small bills and legislatiove attempts to restrict ownership... It's all too easy for a bill to be passed which bans venomous snakes and constrictors over fifteen feet long. Once it's on the books, it can easily be changed to read all snakes over ten feet... then six... then all snakes... then all reptiles... Then all exotics. If there's a local aquarium society or some parrot fanciers or hamster lovers, get them on your side before everything hits the fan and you increase your voter base when and if it comes to that point.

Collect hard numbers, the number of people who die every year from reptile related injury or illness (this is another attack point for PETA types) is much lower than the number killed by dogs or horses. Similarly, there are more abused and abandoned housecats than there are all exotics lumped together in a group... If there is some degree of success in getting legislation up for review surrounding abused reptiles, demand that legislators tack house cat permit requirements of a few hundred bucks a year onto the bill and watch it sink in flames.

Local legislators make great friends. If something doesn't pass inside city limits, it frequently won't pass inside a county or a state (or Providence).

Hit every resource you can on a national and international level for support, internet forums are fast becoming a great way to do so... Hit other big sites (I know that Nett is more active on many than I am) like ssnakess.com (especially, considering the number of active canuks), Kingsnake (it might get deleted, Melissa Kaplan is a moderator there and she's allied with these groups), Fauna and any others you can think of... Make fliers, hit herp and pet related shows and symposiums and generally get down and dirty with your own propaganda campaign, but make sure yours is truthful.


Oh yeah.... this kind of group has been active in the United States for decades, they've been getting steadily smarter about how they conduct themselves and how they approach things... Gotta keep a sharp eye out for that proposed legilslation which bans even a single species, it's not always the obvious "Make eating cows illegal" that it was in the past.

Incidentally...

Rob Laidlaw, the author of the article, has many other articles online, which I have spent an entertaining morning reading... He doesn't like zoos, people keeping pets, anyone eating meat, insulin production, medical research, antivenin production, gasoline powered cars, taking potentially medicinally useful plants out of the wild or apparantly human beings in general.

http://www.wspa.ca/press/2001/1001/301001_1.html

This one was interesting

http://www.wspa.ca/reptiles/reports...ses/report.html

This one is completely composed of lies about salmonella.

A few other psycotic anti-animal sites have him listed, praising him for his work in closing zoos and a few mentioned that he's been hard at work trying to close down the reptile industry, this is not an objective report from an individual uninvolved... it's a clear and direct threat from an individual who is taking his moral views and trying to make them law.

The only credentials I've been able to find are all related to the guy's qualifications in mammilian biology... basically... he doesn't know his *** from a hole in the ground when it comes to herpetology.

Ooh... here's a good one where other Canadians realized that Laidlaw was a psycotic... http://www.canadafreepress.com/arch...02/tgr71502.htm

Basically it sounds a bit mixed... he's got a bad history of this kind inflamatory nonsense that's reccognized by the assorted governmental agencies, but he's also apparantly seen by a lot of people as being educated and somehow trustworthy... It might be a difficult fight.

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Old 02-11-04, 02:37 PM   #44 (permalink)
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People like Rob Laidlaw and his followers should have their heads examined. It disgusts me to no end to think that someone could be so stupid and live this long. He has probably reproduced, too.

Imagine what an asset he would be to humanity if he were to concentrate his efforts on something more important. His crusades have been successful in spite of the stupidity that drives them. If he were to address the school system, the child welfare, lack of affordable housing, unemployment rates, drug abuse and prostitution with the same zeal, our country might be in a better place.

Dont get me wrong - I love animals as much as the next guy (right next to the mashed potatoes, preferably) but I am wiling to shoot, kill, skin, gut and cut up and eat deer, fish, beef, chicken and such. I grew up in a no nonsense farming/ranching community where people lived off the land, and are good custodians of the land and livestock. We are practical people, with values different from 'city folk'.

Certainly there is consideration for the wild caught pet trade, but I think it is best left to the people with expertise in the hobby and indusrty to promote the regulation of such, rather than someone with more opinions than experience. We, as reptile and exotic enthusiasts need to work together to keep poeople like Laidlaw from capitalizing on the publicity of his crusades. The origin of the animal is not as important as where it ends up, and as captive breeders, I think we are making headway in changing this .

When people get all upset over the choices of pets we keep, I wonder how closely they really look at the world around them. Everywhere there is child poverty, sexual abuse and neglect. It does not matter if we are rich or poor, smart or stupid, this is serious stuff happening in our own back yards.

Lets worry about our children and fellow man first, and when we have solved the major issues surrounding humanity, and we are not exhausted with the effort, lets throw ourselves headlong into the petty crap! When we are as concerned for the homeless man dying in the street, as we are for the reptiles and animals people choose to keep, I might understand the mentality (or lack thereof) behind this type of crusade.


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Old 02-11-04, 04:43 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I don't understand the philosophy of these animal rights nut cases. They seem to not just put the lives of animals on the same level as those of humans but they may even place a higher value on the lives of animals for some reason. That just boggles the mind.

I'm all for stopping importation or collection of threatened or endangered species and preserving habitat but I must admit that my ecological concerns only extend as far as it effects human life. In other words I think we have to take care of the earth because if we don't we will be killing ourselves.

Humans are in a unique position to either maintain and preserve the planet or exploit and destroy it. I believe that this means we have the responsibility to ourselves and future generations of people to not let greed lead to the death of animal populations and eventually ourselves. Along with this huge responsibility I believe comes the right to alter nature for our own ends whether that means farming for food or making money in the animal trade to feed ourselves and our families.

There are enough people in the world that are being kept in inhumane conditions without pondering how "happy" an animal with a brain the size of a sunflower seed may be in a Rubbermaid. Why don't you ask the snake dickhead? Let me know when he answers.

I really hope there are some of these losers on here spying so they can take the message back to their friends to grow up and get a real job, do something useful with your misdirected passion and piss off.
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